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Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
#781693
06/02/14 11:08 PM
06/02/14 11:08 PM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,302
Revis_Knicks
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Was: Revis_Island
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: NickyEyes1]
#781850
06/03/14 04:03 PM
06/03/14 04:03 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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PB what's your opinion on the Pete Rose situation? I personally think they should let him in. Bigger scumbags and thugs than Pete Rose get honored by these organizations all the time. That being said, he's a cautionary tale. Actions have consequences.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#781871
06/03/14 05:02 PM
06/03/14 05:02 PM
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Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,401
Footreads
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,401
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Pizza you never made it to the Harlem reunion right? Why don't you take your parents to the next Giglio lift. Giglio Feast August 9 to August 12 www.eastharlemgiglio.org
only the unloved hate
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: Footreads]
#781879
06/03/14 05:21 PM
06/03/14 05:21 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Pizza you never made it to the Harlem reunion right? Why don't you take your parents to the next Giglio lift. Giglio Feast August 9 to August 12 www.eastharlemgiglio.org My Mother's been gone for more than ten years. And I've told you before that my Dad is on the Giglio committee. I've never missed that feast in my life. And that link you provided is for a website a buddy of mine helped design for Father Pete at Mount Carmel. The Church does almost all of the legwork for that society, and they take whatever help they can get. This guy built that website for peanuts. As far as the reunion, I honestly forgot about it. Maybe we'll see you in August, though .
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#782459
06/06/14 08:00 PM
06/06/14 08:00 PM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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As with most comparisons of players from different eras, a purely statistical approach isn't too helpful, but theoretical comparisons are always fun. And sizing up Captain Clutch with Charlie Hustle is a nice study. I've had the pleasure to see both play.
While their careers are only separated by a gap of roughly ten seasons, the eras, in which they played are stark. Rose began the first six or seven years of his career in a golden age of pitching, so dominant that baseball lowered pitching mounds to the present height after 1968 and instituted the DH in the AL in the early 1970s. Conversely, Jeter began his career in the mid-90s when baseball witnessed its most dramatic offensive explosion, especially in power numbers due to cozier parks, a tighter baseball, recent expansion and performance enhancing substances, both legal and illegal.
I've always maintained that Rose was the only player I saw, for whom there is no adequate comparison among his peers or subsequent players (He's probably the closest thing to Ty Cobb the game has seen with respect to his approach). He didn't hit a lot of homers and even for his time his homerun seasons were slightly below average, but he was an extraordinary gap hitter, who'd be among league leaders in doubles, and actually has more than twice the triples of Jeter, who had more foot speed.
As a young Phillie fan, I was always most afraid of facing Pete Rose in that Big Red Machine lineup because he always found a way on base and was usually the starting point of the rally. The Phillies signed Rose and it was clear that he was the reason for getting a championship for the team that without him would win 100 games a season, but lose in the playoffs. Any member of the 1980 Phillies would attest to this and any player of the Big Red Machine, not named Johnny Bench, would enthusiastically credit Rose as the primary factor in the runs and wins they accumulated.
Jeter can lay claim to similar testimony. He had more power than Rose, but Rose was a better hitter, certainly a better lead-off hitter. Now if Jeter played in the 70s he'd likely adjust his approach and have fewer homers while probably having more hits than his present total. Similarly, Pete Rose in the 90s would modify his approach and have seasons of 20+ HRs as the homerun was more attainable and a bigger part of the game. He would also sacrifice some base hits in the process.
Defensively, Jeter played a better shortstop than Rose played third, second and first even though Rose was certainly a good fielder and was more versatile than Jeter. What's often forgotten is that in 8 seasons in the outfield early in his career, Rose won two gold gloves. And that's with NL outfielders, like Brock, Mays, Clemente and others. Jeter also won gold gloves deservedly. While both players are very good defensively, I don't think either can be argued as the best defensive player at his position during his time in the game. Yet both have made many memorable heads-up plays (Jeter tossing out Jeremy Giambi at the plate in the play-offs and Rose snatching the ninth inning foul ball that popped out of Bob Boone's glove).
In the end I cast my biased vote with Rose, but it doesn't matter, does it? There are hundreds of things you can toss back and forth on this, and I don't blame the Jeter fans for picking him. One thing's certain: Jeter will leave a greater legacy due to Pete's indiscretions. I love Pete, and have met him maybe a dozen times at various signings. I relived some distinctly wonderful memories with him, and learned that after winning the 1980 World Series, he spent the night babysitting Aaron and Bret Boone, so their dad could celebrate with the team.
I would love in my heart to see Rose reinstated and admitted to the Hall, but my head tells me that his ban, like Shoeless Joe Jackson's, is justified.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#782669
06/08/14 07:21 AM
06/08/14 07:21 AM
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797 Pennsylvania
klydon1
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Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
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I respect your opinion, but I respectfully disagree. Pete Rose is one of the greatest of all time. Same with jeter. But I don't think pete rose could possess Jeter's power and hit as many home runs as him in his era or jeter's era. I also think that jeter was just in general a better hitter if you look at how many hits he averages per season and his batting average. His OBP is also slightly higher than Rose's. We all have our biases but I'm not biased. I feel that arod was a better SS than jeter and I hate arod. Maybe we should just be thankful that we got to see all these great players play ball. I don't question that Jeter had more power than Rose in either era. I just maintain if they played in the same era, the gap in the homerun totals would be more narrow. Conversely, if they were in the same era, Rose's advantage in extra-base hits would be smaller. In the comparison of career stats it might be helpful to remove Rose's past 5 seasons as he played until he was 44/45. Still they are statistically similar. As I said that Rose has no adequate comparison in his own and subsequent generations, I always felt that his approach, stance, style of hitting, aggressiveness and base running (minus the stealing) make him the closest thing to Ty Cobb that the game has seen. It would have been something to see these two play against each other in a World Series. I agree with you that A-Rod was a better ss than Jeter, which isn't to say of course that Jeter was deficient. A-Rod's range and arm were better. When he came to NY, I thought it was nevertheless wise to move A-Rod to third, not only for chemistry, but that A-Rod was better suited to make the change. I think n interesting comparison with Jeter is Cal Ripken. Not only did their careers overlap somewhat, but they were both tall shortstops, a rarity until 20-30 years ago.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: Revis_Knicks]
#789268
07/15/14 10:44 AM
07/15/14 10:44 AM
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Joined: Jan 2013
Posts: 2,302
Revis_Knicks
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Was: Revis_Island
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Was: Revis_Island
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After thinking about it again today, I have to say that if you look at pete rose he really wasn't as valuable as jeter. He played 4 more season than jeter too. And jeter's stats are just signifigantly better than Rose's. Better average, averaged more hits per season, higher OBP, more gold gloves, more clutch(postseason hitting), more home runs, and just overall a better defensive player at a higher valued position than rose played. Compare Jeter's best season to Rose's MVP season and Jeter has the better season hands down. No disrespect to Pete Rose, but all of the records that he holds are a result of him playing so long and he actually hurt his team towards the end. I still believe he should be in the hof when deemed eligible because if you have the record for most hits then you should be in. First ballot is debatable but he should be in. If he has the most hits of all time, why is he never really put in the same breath as guys like Ruth, mays, Williams, Musial, Gwynn etc. His numbers do not stack up against any if theirs.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: gram6814]
#789285
07/15/14 11:53 AM
07/15/14 11:53 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
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Apples and oranges.
Rose was a fierce competitor. So's Jeter, and I've always liked the way that he carries himself. He's a great Yankee, and a great competitor, and when the Hall comes calling on the first ballot, it will be well deserved.
But when it comes to all-time, all-around shortstops, he's not even in the top five, maybe even top ten.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Derek Jeter vs Pete rose
[Re: pizzaboy]
#789289
07/15/14 11:56 AM
07/15/14 11:56 AM
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Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 64 Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Longshoreman
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Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
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Apples and oranges.
Rose was a fierce competitor. So's Jeter, and I've always liked the way that he carries himself. He's a great Yankee, and a great competitor, and when the Hall comes calling on the first ballot, it will be well deserved.
But when it comes to all-time, all-around shortstops, he's not even in the top five, maybe even top ten. No argument on any of the above, where you put him on list if too ten Yankees?
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