Kay was an incompetent wife...

- I don't think she realized (or cared) how hard Michael worked to provide for his family and keep them afloat.Michael always looked so tired like he needed a week long nap.

- He wasn't an adulterer. As far as we know Michael never cheated, unlike many men in his position who did cheat on their wives openly or secretly. (If they had stayed together do you think Michael would've cheated?)

-He wasn't a wife beater,(besides slapping her after Kay told him about the abortion) according to my Grandmother, aunt and even my four uncles say it was quite common for men to beat their wives in the 50s.

-Kay wanted the status of having a powerful husband with powerful friends and she loved it. Then when s**t got real she aborts their baby and chuck deuces.

I honestly think if Kay had come to Michael like a real wife not saying "I'm leaving" but told him of her concerns about their son, her and the children's safety and concerns about her and Michael's relationship, I feel he may have really listened to her and made a serious effort to change. Kay never brought up those concerns until she decided to leave him.

All in all I feel they are both to blame for the failure of their marriage and it's not all of Michael's fault.

What do you guys think?

I don't see it that way, JD. I think Kay was in love with Michael - but she was in love with the original Michael: the pre-Godfather Michael, who was sweet-natured and playful and soft-hearted and caring. If anything, Kay's mistake was that she allowed her heart to overrule her common sense in accepting Michael's proposal of marriage...when she had already seen a sufficient number of red flags that might otherwise have warned her off (i.e. Michael taking over "the family business", his unrealistic promises to become "legitimate"...and his unexplained absence from her life for the past three years or so).

To me, the school scene in New Hampshire spoke volumes: Michael's profession of love for Kay - only after she resisted his initial overtures - and her emotionally distraught, emotionally conflicted response to him simply did not have the ring of a healthy, well-adjusted relationship that was destined for marital bliss. On the contrary, it foretold trouble ahead.

While I have no doubt that Kay enjoyed the substantial creature comforts afforded by Michael's wealth, I don't think she was ever entirely seduced by them. And as for Kay having allegedly not aired her concerns about their marriage until the marriage was already in deep trouble, I suspect that we ought not to assume this to be the case, simply because the films did not devote a great deal of explicit attention to it. The entire subtext of the D.C. hotel room scene late in GFII was that Kay had already tried, repeatedly, to make her concerns about their marriage known and felt to Michael - but that over time, Michael had become desensitized...and oblivious. I think we're meant to infer that Kay's position was legitimate - and to give her the benefit of the doubt.

~ Q

I agree Q. However, I'm almost appalled at some of JD's post. Doing harm in the 50s was common, so what the heck. How can you blame someone for being part of that common? Afterall, it was only once. Also, just try and talk to Michael; reason with him. Sure, bring up your concerns. If you do, there's a good chance he'll be persuaded and give up the Mafia life. Rajunah.

Kay wanted the status? What in the novel or film gives any indication of that?

"Listen Kay, Mike works hard. Sure, plenty of that work is pursuant to murder and mayhem. Sure, it eats away at the fabric of society. Sure, you and the kids are in danger of being murdered every day. Also, keep in mind that one day he'll be legitimate. Nevertheless Kay, Michael works hard; it's tiring for him and he's just trying to earn enough to keep ya'll "afloat". Absolutely!

Olivant I don't think you understood my post, I never said "since it was common it was ok for him to hit her just that once." I wasn't saying that I was mentioning it to cover my bases just in case someone wanted to say, "well he did slap her after the hearings."

Nothing in the novel or film I'm going about how I perceived Kay, I don't doubt she enjoyed that status.

Also I never said she could persuade him to give up the Mafia life, I doubt anyone could've done that. But he could have changed his attitude towards his family. I believe if she had come to him a different way at the hotel he may have really made an effort I say this because it seems he was brought back down to earth with the shooting, his brother's betrayal and Kay's "miscarriage". Maybe he was at a moment where he was finally ready to listen. I don't know but I always thought there to be some good in everyone and that anyone could change it's just how to approach a situation that could make something go really right or really wrong.

Questadt I didn't get that vibe that Kay had tried to talk to Michael about her concerns only because he seemed kind of taken aback by the whole conversation/argument. That's just how I saw it. Also I think one of Michael's biggest slip up was promising Kay that the family business would go legit, I wonder if he didn't would she still agree to marry him probably since you bring up she was still in love with "old" Michael.

His second biggest mistake was marrying Kay in the first place they were now very different then they were in their college years esp. Michael. I understood why Michael "proposed" to Kay (because he was comfortable with her) but at the same time confused I remember in the novel before meeting Apollonia he said that he knew he could never be with Kay after what he did. So why not married an Italian woman I mean I'm sure there were plenty of young women eager to get married if he wanted a quicky wife after joining his father's "business".

Understanding he married a WASP to give the look of being legit and "white" children but at the same token Geary (and I'm sure he wasn't the only one) saw right through that so in the end it wouldn't have mattered if he married an Italian or a WASP, neither would have made him look legit as he thought it would. I wonder how other mobsters saw Michael for marrying a WASP... I guess the same way they looked at Vito for making Tom a non- Sicilian his consigliere.

I think the onus for the failed marriage is on Michael.

They were both passionately in love before Michael killed Sol and Mac. But Michael very obviously was a different, colder man after Sicily. The only thing I can "blame" Kay for was not seeing that--especially since Michael's wooing of her in New Hampshire had all the warmth of a business contract negotiation (and that after telling her that he'd been back for a year). I think she also erred in allowing herself to be convinced that Michael could "change," and that she could be the agent of change.

Kay was neither incompetent or stupid. However she was enabling. If you recall in the novel both she and her parents were questioned about Michael's whereabouts after the death of the Police Capitan and they chose to keep quiet. And I think her parents protected him out of love for their daughter as she and Michael were very much in love at first. Do you guys feel Kay married the new Michael out of fear or love? She said at the end she learned to dread him and Kay did not seem happy to see Michael at their first meeting, surprised yes, happy no. the novel and movie have very different endings. in the movie Michael went after Kay, in the novel Michael's mom went after Kay after his return from Sicily.

Johnny Dangerous it is obvious you haven't read the book and your value of women is not very high.. you must be single or uneducated. No offense. However you are right, Michael was a very good provider for his family but he WAS NOT a good loving husband and Kay would have been raising those three kids hiding in the compound. Kay was not seduced by Michael's status because she told it how it was in Godfather III he was a common mafia hood when she met him and she was the one from an educated white background. She was used to the good life as she was born into it. And I think it was Michael that became seduced by the power... something that was triggered into him the second the police Capitan slapped him in the face. Your right Michael was not a wife beater because the truth of the matter is he was too obsessed with power and wife beater's are normally very insecure men who are too scared to fight a real man...like Carlo..a complete coward of a man.. but Michael did eventually become what is known today as a psychopath, a very controlled psychopath but still a psychopath or as some would say "a stone cold killer"

I do value women nothing in my post suggest other wise and I have read the book several times since I do have the novel and my opinion has not changed of Kay she was incompetent, why is everyone going so hard for Kay? I view Michael as a man misunderstood he was hurt, sadly he felt he couldn't discuss his pain with anyone for fear of looking weak. I don't get why people always view Michael as the villain i don't see him that way he had other bad guys killed and? I guess because most of you are looking at it in a lawfully light not sure, but I look at it in a Mob business way those guys were fair game they knew what could happen. The only "stone cold killing" he ever did was the hit on his brother I wish Ferdo would had just told Michael after the shooting I think it could have gone completely different if he had.

I do agree that Michael was drunk on power I just wish people would see Michael another way instead of a villain or the bad guy. I just see him as misunderstood I guess I'm the only one in world who feels that way.

Quote from Michael's confession in G3:

Michael Corleone: I, uh, betrayed my wife. I betrayed myself. I've killed men, and I ordered men to be killed.


Sure sounds like he cheated to me......

Yea I doubt he meant it that way.

he didn't betray Kay?? he killed two guys and got married to someone else in sicily... then when she got wacked in a botched up hit he goes running back to Kay?? Kay was BY FAR second choice at that point. what was the marriage to Apolina? Michael "playing the field"??

Are you reading my comments at all? Did I ever say he didn't betray Kay? He said he betrayed his wife that means during the marriage. He didn't cheat during the marriage.

If you were paying attention to the entire trajectory of Michael & Kay's marriage - from the honeymoon stage right through to the final estrangement - it's pretty obvious that Kay had become increasingly disillusioned and increasingly unhappy. Michael was taken aback by Kay's confrontation at the D.C. hotel room, because he never before realized the severity of his growing marital crisis. Kay had never before tried to leave him. She had never before aborted any of his children.



Your take on Michael is understandable. I agree that Michael is a complex, conflicted, and multi-faceted figure, and certainly not a one-dimensional cartoon villain from a Hollywood action movie. That's what makes him so compelling and fascinating. But I thought the specific topic of your thread was Michael's marriage to Kay?

The fact that his business made extraordinary demands upon Michael and that he tried in his own way to meet all his responsibilities and keep everyone happy didn't get him off the hook so far as his marriage was concerned. IME, relationships aren't about being "right" or "wrong". They're not about being justified or culpable. They're about meeting the needs of one's partner, promoting an environment in which happiness can flourish...and hopefully receiving the same in return. Clearly Kay didn't feel that it was working for her. There's the bottom line.

IMO, Michael & Kay's marriage functioned as a sort of symbolic microcosm of Michael's failed quest for legitimacy through his organized crime career - with Kay representing decent, respectable society...and the ultimate impossibility of ever reconciling its social mores & morals with those of the underworld from whence Michael originated.

well said Q like I said he was a good provider for the family but not a good husband...

Yea I agree with you Questadt, but Michaels personality is relevant to his and Kays marriage because I feel Kay didn't understand the "new" Michael.

This is my first post ever so I'm glad I brought this topic up, I didn't think anyone would reply, their marriage doesn't seem like a popular topic on this forum.

You brought up an interesting topic. It does seem "popular," as there have been many replies. They just don't generally agree with you.

Frankly, I don't either. I don't see any cause to blame Kay for the marriage's failure. Michael really seemed to change over the years. It's hard to see what he offered Kay as a husband, other than a high standard of living. Granted, Kay made a mistake in marrying Michael. That's where her culpability ends.

It was clear that the marriage was failing. The scene where Michael returns to Lake Tahoe; passes the abandoned, snow-covered car he pretended to buy Anthony; and stands in the doorway when Kay sews, ignoring or unaware of him, is heartbreaking. Then he asks Mama about losing his family.

After all that, what does Michael do to make things better? As far as we see, absolutely nothing. Again, why is this Kay's fault?

Excellent topic JohnnyD.

First, let me say that just because Michael was NOT an adulterer does not mean that he was a good husband by any means. Secondly, your statement about his killing other "bad guys" insinuates that it was ok for him to kill and order the killing of others. And within the confines of the 'mob life' then it would be okay. However you fail to realize that people like the Corleone's are really scumbag murdering leaches. These people do affect those outside the 'mob life' in that they steal, shake down, manipulate and strong arm everyday hard working business owners and working class people. Their actions affect the lives of so many regular people.

Now my two cents about their marriage;

While I'm not nor ever have been a Kay fan, let's be fair with her. It's true that when agreeing to marry Michael she accepted a way of life that she should have known was not going to be one of the nice little house with the white picket fence. But she was naive....and Michael was cunning. As Turnbull correctly pointed out, Michael's plea for her to marry him did indeed have the warmth of negotiating a business contract. And Kay, being blinded by the love that she still had for the old Michael, fell for it. She really believed that he was "not like his father" and therefore thinking with her heart, thought that perhaps Michael would bring the family to legitimacy. Kay was definitely sincere.

Then at the end of GF1, when she confronts him about killing the heads of the five families and Carlo, he once again uses his cunning ways, slams his hand down as a show of anger and power, and then puts this 'because I love you so much I'll answer you this one time' act on and tells her no, he did not do those horrible things. But when his regime comes over to him to honor him by kissing his ring and calling him Godfather, she sees this as the door to his study slams in her face. And at that moment she realizes that he will not change and that from the moment that he made his plea to her in New Hampshire up until now, he lied. And I think that at that moment she also realized that she was not going to change him so she decided that in order to make her marriage work she would have to accept her husband for what he was and conform to the life that she would now have to live. So in essence I think that she was sincere to him and their marriage and tried her best to make it work.

However, I think that after the hit attempt in GFII, after realizing that her children could have been killed because of the life that her husband had chosen and the life that she had chosen and after being confined to the Corleone compound by Tom on Michael's orders, she did what any good mother would have tried to do. She knew that as a loving mother she would have to protect her children and remove them from the life that she had wrongly accepted many years ago. She knew that she needed to shield them from the dangers that their power hungry father had created for them.

So while I understand that you are trying to say that it was not all Michael's fault, at the same time it was not all Kay's fault either. They were both to blame for their own reasons. But overall it really was Michael who destroyed their marriage because Kay really did try her best to make it work.

Thanks Don Cardi, yea the whole reason I brought up this topic was to shed light on the fact that Kay was also at fault for their marriage. Failing from the very beginning she should have denied Michael marriage proposal but she let her emotions get the better of her, Michael should have never proposed to her referring to my original post in the novel he said he knew he could never be with Kay again then when he returned and joined the "family business" he proposes to her he felt comfortable with Kay, but still that's the one thing that I never understood why he went back to Kay because he knew they couldn't be together the only other reason given was that he thought having a WASP wife would make him look legit but it wouldn't had mattered if he had an Italian wife or green wife nothing would had made him look legit. I use Senator Geary as an example he saw straight through that and I'm sure others did too so him marrying Kay was (and I'm sad to say) but the whole marriage was kind of pointless because it didn't do the very thing he thought it would. So all this pain and heartache could have been avoided. But I suppose we wouldn't have had a movie/novel so...

Good topic.

They were both each other's curses. Kay was trapped by her vision of the Michael of the past, who no longer existed. Michael was haunted by the ghost of Appalonia, the true love of his life. Once she was killed, he would never allow anyone to occupy that part of his heart again.

It hardly needs to be said that Kay would have been better off without Michael post-Sicily. She should have kept teaching and lived a "normal" life. Other than not doing so, though, I assess her no blame for what was to come.

I wonder, though, what Michael would have done had Kay steadfastly rebuffed him. He obviously chose not to pursue another Sicilian girl before returning and (based on the novel) liked the idea of having a WASPy wife to present outwardly. Kay was probably his last chance at getting a wife like that, at least one so refined and presentable. Once he got into the family business, it would have been unlikely that any other woman like Kay would be receptive to his courtship. And I couldn't see Michael "settling" for an immigrant's daughter once he returned to New York, much less a Hollywood floozy like Fredo later did.

The more I think about it, the more I am convinced Michael would have never given up on marrying Kay. She just made it easy.

He didn't have to "settle" for an immigrants daughter or a Hollywood woman, it could have been any other woman but Kay or a WASPY wife. I do disagree with JD that it was Kay's fault but I see where it came from the fact she let herself be blinded by "love" in the beginning that IS her fault (I blame Puzo/Coppola for that).

Also Mr. Blonde I guess what JD was trying to say was that WASPY wife or some other wife wouldn't had made him look any other way to the outside, people knew who his father was and what he did and no one is that stupid ( at least I hope not) I mean that one Governor he was talking to knew the deal so what's to say no one else saw Michael for what he was an illegitimate business man no amount of WASPY was going to cover that up.