0 registered members (),
675
guests, and 7
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics42,458
Posts1,061,291
Members10,349
|
Most Online992 Jun 1st, 2024
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#769887
03/27/14 07:49 AM
03/27/14 07:49 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98 New York, NY
Questadt
Button
|
Button
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
New York, NY
|
I don't see it that way, JD. I think Kay was in love with Michael - but she was in love with the original Michael: the pre-Godfather Michael, who was sweet-natured and playful and soft-hearted and caring. If anything, Kay's mistake was that she allowed her heart to overrule her common sense in accepting Michael's proposal of marriage...when she had already seen a sufficient number of red flags that might otherwise have warned her off (i.e. Michael taking over "the family business", his unrealistic promises to become "legitimate"...and his unexplained absence from her life for the past three years or so).
To me, the school scene in New Hampshire spoke volumes: Michael's profession of love for Kay - only after she resisted his initial overtures - and her emotionally distraught, emotionally conflicted response to him simply did not have the ring of a healthy, well-adjusted relationship that was destined for marital bliss. On the contrary, it foretold trouble ahead.
While I have no doubt that Kay enjoyed the substantial creature comforts afforded by Michael's wealth, I don't think she was ever entirely seduced by them. And as for Kay having allegedly not aired her concerns about their marriage until the marriage was already in deep trouble, I suspect that we ought not to assume this to be the case, simply because the films did not devote a great deal of explicit attention to it. The entire subtext of the D.C. hotel room scene late in GFII was that Kay had already tried, repeatedly, to make her concerns about their marriage known and felt to Michael - but that over time, Michael had become desensitized...and oblivious. I think we're meant to infer that Kay's position was legitimate - and to give her the benefit of the doubt.
~ Q
Last edited by Questadt; 03/27/14 07:57 AM.
"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#769921
03/27/14 11:36 AM
03/27/14 11:36 AM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024 Texas
olivant
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
|
I agree Q. However, I'm almost appalled at some of JD's post. Doing harm in the 50s was common, so what the heck. How can you blame someone for being part of that common? Afterall, it was only once. Also, just try and talk to Michael; reason with him. Sure, bring up your concerns. If you do, there's a good chance he'll be persuaded and give up the Mafia life. Rajunah.
Kay wanted the status? What in the novel or film gives any indication of that?
"Listen Kay, Mike works hard. Sure, plenty of that work is pursuant to murder and mayhem. Sure, it eats away at the fabric of society. Sure, you and the kids are in danger of being murdered every day. Also, keep in mind that one day he'll be legitimate. Nevertheless Kay, Michael works hard; it's tiring for him and he's just trying to earn enough to keep ya'll "afloat". Absolutely!
Last edited by olivant; 03/27/14 11:38 AM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#770050
03/27/14 11:56 PM
03/27/14 11:56 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 177 Westchester
Frankie_Five_Angels
Made Member
|
Made Member
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 177
Westchester
|
- He wasn't an adulterer. As far as we know Michael never cheated, unlike many men in his position who did cheat on their wives openly or secretly. (If they had stayed together do you think Michael would've cheated?) Quote from Michael's confession in G3: Michael Corleone: I, uh, betrayed my wife. I betrayed myself. I've killed men, and I ordered men to be killed. Sure sounds like he cheated to me......
"I'll give you undignified. Go fuck yourself. You, Phil... whoever. He's my fuckin' cousin."
"My name is George. I'm unemployed and live with my parents"..
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#770060
03/28/14 12:45 AM
03/28/14 12:45 AM
|
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 323
paprincess
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 323
|
he didn't betray Kay?? he killed two guys and got married to someone else in sicily... then when she got wacked in a botched up hit he goes running back to Kay?? Kay was BY FAR second choice at that point. what was the marriage to Apolina? Michael "playing the field"??
Last edited by paprincess; 03/28/14 12:46 AM.
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#770064
03/28/14 01:25 AM
03/28/14 01:25 AM
|
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98 New York, NY
Questadt
Button
|
Button
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 98
New York, NY
|
Questadt I didn't get that vibe that Kay had tried to talk to Michael about her concerns only because he seemed kind of taken aback by the whole conversation/argument. That's just how I saw it. If you were paying attention to the entire trajectory of Michael & Kay's marriage - from the honeymoon stage right through to the final estrangement - it's pretty obvious that Kay had become increasingly disillusioned and increasingly unhappy. Michael was taken aback by Kay's confrontation at the D.C. hotel room, because he never before realized the severity of his growing marital crisis. Kay had never before tried to leave him. She had never before aborted any of his children. I view Michael as a man misunderstood he was hurt, sadly he felt he couldn't discuss his pain with anyone for fear of looking weak. I don't get why people always view Michael as the villain i don't see him that way he had other bad guys killed and? I guess because most of you are looking at it in a lawfully light not sure, but I look at it in a Mob business way those guys were fair game they knew what could happen. The only "stone cold killing" he ever did was the hit on his brother I wish Ferdo would had just told Michael after the shooting I think it could have gone completely different if he had.
I do agree that Michael was drunk on power I just wish people would see Michael another way instead of a villain or the bad guy. I just see him as misunderstood I guess I'm the only one in world who feels that way. Your take on Michael is understandable. I agree that Michael is a complex, conflicted, and multi-faceted figure, and certainly not a one-dimensional cartoon villain from a Hollywood action movie. That's what makes him so compelling and fascinating. But I thought the specific topic of your thread was Michael's marriage to Kay? The fact that his business made extraordinary demands upon Michael and that he tried in his own way to meet all his responsibilities and keep everyone happy didn't get him off the hook so far as his marriage was concerned. IME, relationships aren't about being "right" or "wrong". They're not about being justified or culpable. They're about meeting the needs of one's partner, promoting an environment in which happiness can flourish...and hopefully receiving the same in return. Clearly Kay didn't feel that it was working for her. There's the bottom line. IMO, Michael & Kay's marriage functioned as a sort of symbolic microcosm of Michael's failed quest for legitimacy through his organized crime career - with Kay representing decent, respectable society...and the ultimate impossibility of ever reconciling its social mores & morals with those of the underworld from whence Michael originated.
Last edited by Questadt; 03/28/14 01:34 AM.
"A lawyer with his briefcase can steal more than a hundred men with guns."
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#770099
03/28/14 09:59 AM
03/28/14 09:59 AM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
Yea I agree with you Questadt, but Michaels personality is relevant to his and Kays marriage because I feel Kay didn't understand the "new" Michael.
This is my first post ever so I'm glad I brought this topic up, I didn't think anyone would reply, their marriage doesn't seem like a popular topic on this forum. You brought up an interesting topic. It does seem "popular," as there have been many replies. They just don't generally agree with you. Frankly, I don't either. I don't see any cause to blame Kay for the marriage's failure. Michael really seemed to change over the years. It's hard to see what he offered Kay as a husband, other than a high standard of living. Granted, Kay made a mistake in marrying Michael. That's where her culpability ends. It was clear that the marriage was failing. The scene where Michael returns to Lake Tahoe; passes the abandoned, snow-covered car he pretended to buy Anthony; and stands in the doorway when Kay sews, ignoring or unaware of him, is heartbreaking. Then he asks Mama about losing his family. After all that, what does Michael do to make things better? As far as we see, absolutely nothing. Again, why is this Kay's fault?
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#770128
03/28/14 12:55 PM
03/28/14 12:55 PM
|
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238 The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi
Caporegime
|
Caporegime
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
|
Excellent topic JohnnyD.
First, let me say that just because Michael was NOT an adulterer does not mean that he was a good husband by any means. Secondly, your statement about his killing other "bad guys" insinuates that it was ok for him to kill and order the killing of others. And within the confines of the 'mob life' then it would be okay. However you fail to realize that people like the Corleone's are really scumbag murdering leaches. These people do affect those outside the 'mob life' in that they steal, shake down, manipulate and strong arm everyday hard working business owners and working class people. Their actions affect the lives of so many regular people.
Now my two cents about their marriage;
While I'm not nor ever have been a Kay fan, let's be fair with her. It's true that when agreeing to marry Michael she accepted a way of life that she should have known was not going to be one of the nice little house with the white picket fence. But she was naive....and Michael was cunning. As Turnbull correctly pointed out, Michael's plea for her to marry him did indeed have the warmth of negotiating a business contract. And Kay, being blinded by the love that she still had for the old Michael, fell for it. She really believed that he was "not like his father" and therefore thinking with her heart, thought that perhaps Michael would bring the family to legitimacy. Kay was definitely sincere.
Then at the end of GF1, when she confronts him about killing the heads of the five families and Carlo, he once again uses his cunning ways, slams his hand down as a show of anger and power, and then puts this 'because I love you so much I'll answer you this one time' act on and tells her no, he did not do those horrible things. But when his regime comes over to him to honor him by kissing his ring and calling him Godfather, she sees this as the door to his study slams in her face. And at that moment she realizes that he will not change and that from the moment that he made his plea to her in New Hampshire up until now, he lied. And I think that at that moment she also realized that she was not going to change him so she decided that in order to make her marriage work she would have to accept her husband for what he was and conform to the life that she would now have to live. So in essence I think that she was sincere to him and their marriage and tried her best to make it work.
However, I think that after the hit attempt in GFII, after realizing that her children could have been killed because of the life that her husband had chosen and the life that she had chosen and after being confined to the Corleone compound by Tom on Michael's orders, she did what any good mother would have tried to do. She knew that as a loving mother she would have to protect her children and remove them from the life that she had wrongly accepted many years ago. She knew that she needed to shield them from the dangers that their power hungry father had created for them.
So while I understand that you are trying to say that it was not all Michael's fault, at the same time it was not all Kay's fault either. They were both to blame for their own reasons. But overall it really was Michael who destroyed their marriage because Kay really did try her best to make it work.
Don Cardi Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: JohnnyDangerously]
#771474
04/04/14 11:15 AM
04/04/14 11:15 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 341 North America
Mr. Blonde
Capo
|
Capo
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 341
North America
|
Good topic.
They were both each other's curses. Kay was trapped by her vision of the Michael of the past, who no longer existed. Michael was haunted by the ghost of Appalonia, the true love of his life. Once she was killed, he would never allow anyone to occupy that part of his heart again.
It hardly needs to be said that Kay would have been better off without Michael post-Sicily. She should have kept teaching and lived a "normal" life. Other than not doing so, though, I assess her no blame for what was to come.
I wonder, though, what Michael would have done had Kay steadfastly rebuffed him. He obviously chose not to pursue another Sicilian girl before returning and (based on the novel) liked the idea of having a WASPy wife to present outwardly. Kay was probably his last chance at getting a wife like that, at least one so refined and presentable. Once he got into the family business, it would have been unlikely that any other woman like Kay would be receptive to his courtship. And I couldn't see Michael "settling" for an immigrant's daughter once he returned to New York, much less a Hollywood floozy like Fredo later did.
The more I think about it, the more I am convinced Michael would have never given up on marrying Kay. She just made it easy.
|
|
|
Re: Michael and Kay: husband and wife
[Re: Mr. Blonde]
#771738
04/05/14 02:30 PM
04/05/14 02:30 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
Reimagined
Progress comes w/ change
|
Progress comes w/ change
Associate
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 6
|
He didn't have to "settle" for an immigrants daughter or a Hollywood woman, it could have been any other woman but Kay or a WASPY wife. I do disagree with JD that it was Kay's fault but I see where it came from the fact she let herself be blinded by "love" in the beginning that IS her fault (I blame Puzo/Coppola for that).
Also Mr. Blonde I guess what JD was trying to say was that WASPY wife or some other wife wouldn't had made him look any other way to the outside, people knew who his father was and what he did and no one is that stupid ( at least I hope not) I mean that one Governor he was talking to knew the deal so what's to say no one else saw Michael for what he was an illegitimate business man no amount of WASPY was going to cover that up.
“We live in such a special time when literally anything we can think of is possible.” ― Daniel Willey
|
|
|
|