so true dapper

Actually it wouldn't surprise me at all these days. But if they gave up info then they're rats too.

Capeci said Junior gave up Angelo Ruggiero and 2 other guys for killing a witness. Junior crossed the line and just because Ruggerio was dead doesn't matter to me, Gotti gave him up and god knows who else. In my book he's a rat and i bet his father would of agreed with me on that. His old man must of been rolling over in his grave.

This is what Capeci reported

"Gotti has denied any involvement in that killing or any other murders. But in a controversial "proffer session" he had with the feds in 2005, Junior said now-deceased Gambino solder Angelo Ruggiero paid a $25,000 bribe to a Queens detective, and that Ruggiero and two others killed the witness and made it look like a suicide."

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/jerry-capeci/the-junior-gotti-chronicl_b_224097.html

"Gotti told the feds in a 2005 proffer session that, despite his innocence in the Silva stabbing, the Gambino family had bribed a corrupt detective to quash a probe of his involvement in it. He also claimed that, with the detective's help, the crime family had murdered a witness in the case and made it look like a suicide."

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/feds-try-new-angle-to-get-junior-gotti/63969/

"Gotti later sought a different type of revenge against the trio in January 2005, when he secretly met with the feds in a failed bid to get out from under racketeering charges, breaking the Mafia oath of "omerta."During the proffer session, Gotti detailed crimes that Marino, Gammarano and Watts committed prior to 1999,"

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_apTPpPpp09cz4McH1iIuOI

"Gotti's bid to become a turncoat fell through after he refused to give the feds the full story - he agreed only to provide incriminating information about certain cohorts but insisted on protecting others, sources said."

http://www.nypost.com/p/news/item_IkTuZ7c1JblKLuLLd60TGP

It is quite common for guys to blame other guys who are dead or already serving a prison sentence for a crime that they dont want to be charged with. There are a bunch of examples which can be seen online once an appeal has been shot down and posted on the internet. Sometimes this is the basis for many appeals in LCN. Lawyers might argue something like "my client didnt do this cause a cooperator said that this other guy who is dead or in jail or a victim of a botched hit and then cooperated did this".

Are you saying this doesn't make him a rat?

Shit i forgot all about him giving info on Marino, Gammarano and Watts. They should of hit him just for that. I wonder what he gave them on those guys?

Sure he tried to say as little as possible, i really don't doubt that but he crossed the line. Just my opinion on it. I really don't see how he could ever be trusted by active guys, but again it's just my opinion.

I guess everyone can make their own judgement on him, but to me he went too far.

nicky c also, he really got a pass

this is all bullshit he never had anything in tampa. when hes in florida hes not even in tampa! let alone setting up shop down there

he did have valet , dance clubs, that were with them in tampa , through alit. now if he goes there it is for pleasure..nobody goes near him from any mob

They should hit him? They should do this they should do that! Ur going by tom hagen now? Off the top of my head, two names come to mind that did a profer session, Joe Watts and Mike Coppola. You know what? Your the one that thinks killing these guys is such a good idea, you fuckin do it. Im sure youll get staightened out. No doubt. He crossed a line? He tried to protect little Angie and ratted on a dead guy. Id like to see you stand up thru 4 trials. Paying a mil a trial.

And for everybody, hes not in the life. And He doesnt live in tampa. They have a condo in palm beach. But he doesnt even live there. He stays in ob in his house, that yes he still owns. His sister isnt even broke, even if she acts like it. The agnello kids all dropped the agnello from their nmes, and run around sayin theyre gottis. They moved to hb so they kid fit in with the rest of the bergen crews kids. Who, btw, still fucking love junior. Ruggieros included. His family helped a lot of ppl out in ozp/hb... U wont hear about that shit though. All the press he gets is negative, but a lot of guys love the gottis. Hes out of the life for good. Doesnt need it, hes got tons of real estate.

Wow, a little touchy there Skinny. Is he a friend of yours or something?

He gave up info, call it whatever you want. Fuck him.

Take a wild guess

i said the same thing you jut expanded on it...this is 100% accurate

So you 2 guys are saying even if Junior gave the feds info on Nicky Corozzo, Danny Marino, Johnny G, Joe Watts and on the murder of a witness he's no rat?

Ok, whatever you guys say. I guess we have different opinions on what a rat is and how far you have to go to be called one.

He didnt give em enough to charge any of those guys. If he did, hed be dead. U dont fuck with the Corozzos. If he did something worthy of getting killed he wouldnt be living ten minutes from Nicky Corozzos house. Imo hes as much as a rat as joe watts.

Fair enough Skinny.

your right watts proffered also,,they are both rats.. skinny so many have talked it does matter if someone gets pinched from them..example...if osama bin laden was putting a device on a bridge and you being around someone or a wise guy called the cops you are a rat...as crazy as that seems 100% rat .

GC wasn't referring to the rat part. No idea on that. I was referring to outta the life and he can live off his real estate. Whether he was a rat or not I have no opinion

Respect

Sorry about that Cheech, i misunderstood what you posted.

I'm a big enough man to admit when i'm wrong and you know what, skinny might of been right, at least on the part about Jr ratting on Marino and Johnny G. A later Capeci article says Junior didn't give info on Johnny G after all. And the only thing he said about Marino was that he "washed his hands" of the matter involving his nephew, James Hydell.

So as far as those 2 guys go Junior might not of dimed them out after all.

Here's the later Capeci article. You guys can decide for yourselves.

http://www.nysun.com/new-york/gotti-says-detective-helped-in-killing-of/42339

^^^from the article above

"During Junior's discussion with the feds — it was attended by his lawyers at the time, Jeffrey Lichtman and Marc Fernich, Assistant U.S Attorney Jennifer Rodgers, former prosecutors Joon Kim and Robert Buehler, and FBI agent Cindy Peil — Gotti denied any role in the slaying, sources said.

Even though the proffer session occurred before his first trial for the 1992 shooting of Curtis Sliwa, Gotti neither volunteered nor was asked any questions about the Sliwa assault or any other charges in the racketeering indictment, sources said.

One subject that did come up, sources said, was the 1986 shooting of Luchese underboss Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso, who was wounded by a team of Gambino associates who had been sent on their mission by Ruggiero. That assault was a focal point of the racketeering and murder trial of Mafia Cops Louis Eppolito and Stephen Caracappa that was then set to start the following month.

It was while discussing that subject, the sources said, that Gotti made his only mention of Gambino capo Daniel Marino, telling the feds that Marino had "washed his hands" of the situation when he learned that his nephew, James Hydell, had taken part in the shooting, and that Casso was likely to kill Hydell in retaliation.

Contrary to what Gang Land reported previously, Gotti did not link Marino or soldier John "Johnny G" Gammarano to "numerous crimes" during his session with the feds. In fact, according to several authoritative law enforcement sources familiar with Junior's meeting with the feds, he never mentioned Gammarano's name during the session. Other sources, both in and out of law enforcement, disagree about whether Junior had agreed to implicate Johnny G in criminal activity at the session, but the fact is he never did, all the sources agree.

After the Casso shooting, Ruggiero was placed "on the shelf" for ordering the attack, Junior told the feds. Despite orders from his father to shun Ruggiero, Junior continued to speak to him, and was told by Ruggiero that he and mob associates Wilford "Willie Boy" Johnson and Joseph Watts had killed the witness to the Silva slaying, the sources said.

A few years later, according to the sources, when Junior and a few of his buddies were arrested for assaulting a few patrons at a Long Island nightclub — the charges were later dropped when the victims forgot who had hit them — the Gambinos passed more cash to Mr. Daly to keep Junior's name from resurfacing in the Silver Fox case, Junior told the feds."

i'm not sure if he gave them any outdated info or not, but the world of OC is changing, and it wouldn't surprise me that if in the future, certain guys might be given the ok to spill the beans on guys that have passed in an attempt to save themselves or others. that scenario is a bit more extreme, but even the genovese(as well as others) have been advised in certain cases to plead out, rather than having them risk much longer sentences at trial. the point is, even that would have been unheard of a few decades ago. it seems like the most successful organizations, whether criminal or not, always change with the times.

Fair statement. Junior's out, but he's not without his friends.

Wouldn't they have to give up something solid and proveable in their proffer sessions so the government knows they're being straight-up with them? If so,basically everyone who's ever had one is a rat regardless of the fact that they backed out.

Well Jimmy the way i look at it is that any criminal who gives info on crimes committed by others to the feds is a rat. Personally i don't care if it's in a proffer session or if it's totally off the books. You give info on crimes committed by other people to the feds then i would consider that person to be a rat. To tell you the truth i'm kind of surprised others don't see it that way but thats cool, i guess people just see things differently.

And when i say people that give info to the feds i mean other criminals, not the general public who give info to law enforcement on a crime.

As far as Gotti goes he might not of given up as much info that i thought he did. If you read my last post you'll see that after i found info saying Gotti didn't rat on Johnny G and Danny Marino i posted it and said i was wrong. Hell i'm not trying to bullshit anyone, if i find out i was wrong i'll say it.

At this point i'm not sure what Gotti gave them or didn't give them. Ok we know Angelo was dead when Junior implicated him but what about the 2 other guys who Gotti said did the hit with Angelo? Did he give up their names? I really don't know, but if he did then what would you call it?

And when you ask if everyone who goes to a proffer session is a rat? Well in my opinion if the person goes to one of those Queen for a day proffer sessions and gives info on crimes committed by others then yes to me that person is a rat. If you only implicate yourself then no, that person didn't cross the line and didn't rat on anyone but themselves.

I totally respect Skinny's and everyone elses opinion on it, but i guess i just see it differently.

This Rat line totally flips the topic but raises, IMO, a far more substantial inquiry. A guy breaks Omerta: is he a Rat or is that an just an internal thing, guy is clipped or put on the shelf.

Look. The salient factor of Omerta is not revealing the existence of the brotherhood. When a guy allocutes, or engages in a proffer session, does he in fact admit to being a friend? I dunno. Do you?

Joe Bonnano and all those other wash-outs on social media reliving their glory days, while not technically giving anybody up, certainly cross a line. Does that make them rats? I think that's best settled by how they're viewed by those concerned: fellow mobsters.

Just how is Jr. viewed by former friends?

I really have no idea on how other mobsters feel about Junior. I'm sure Junior has plenty of supporters who view what he did differently then i do.

But to me it's pretty simple, you give up info on crimes committed by others to the cops or feds then in my book that is a rat move. It's not just mob guys i'm talking about, but pretty much any criminal who gives the law info on crimes committed by other people.

It's just how i see it, i'm really not trying to start any arguments with anyone over it, just saying the way i look at it. But if someone see's it differently then thats fine with me, we just see it differently.

And don't even get me started on Joe Bonanno. WTF was he thinking when he wrote that book of his? Not too cool in my opinion but again i know other people think differently about it.

What's up my friend hows the weather?

The bergen crew guys love him. That includes the ruggieros, their sons are like brothers. Same with Tommy Stifler.

tommy sneakers hated him ,so did charles..

I agree with everything you're saying.Only thing I'd like to add is in my personal opinion,if they've gone as far as even reaching out to the gov't they're no good, and should never be trusted again.Once you've put your toe in the water it's that much easier to dive right in...