If Tessio had succeeded in whacking Michael, how would it be guaranteed that he would be the next Don? And who was Barzini anyway to tell him that he could have control? What would ultimately happen to Clemenza as well? Do you think Tessio would have assasinated Clemenza, Neri and Rocco to take control? Furthermore, Tessio would have probably ended up playing himself...Barzini ultimately would have hit him. Why, BECAUSE NO ONE RESPECTS A TRAITOR. Any thoughts to the above questions?? Holla Back...

My guess is that Tessio would have joined Luca Brasi and slept with the fishes. I don't imagine Barzini was going to sit by and watch Tessio -- who had already betrayed Michael -- accumulate any power at all so that he could turn on him.

I doubt Tessio would have assassinated Clemenza. Pete struck me as the type of guy who would be loyal to whomever kept him alive. I'm sure he'd have cast his lot with Tessio and been quite happy.

Barzini was just trying to solidify his power by making the move with Tessio. Don or no don, Tessio would be beholden to Barzini for having engineered the whole thing to begin with.

I don't think Tessio has his sights on being the Don - he just wanted to get on the side of the leader that he thought would win. As for Clemenza's reaction if Tessio had gotten Michael killed - I think he would have reacted like Brasi and would have done whatever it took to kill Tessio.

I agree with Don Marco. Tessio didn't want to become don, he just didn't think Michael could beat Barzini and wanted to be on the winning side.

I have a feeling even if Tessio did succeed, he would get whacked later on. After all, he did betray his family.. who's to say he wouldn't betray Barzini later on down the road? Barzini could (and probably would, given his attitude and actions) use that as an excuse to have Tessio killed right after consolidating his power.

Barzini would have probably took over the Corleone family, as there was no one who could hold the family together. Brazini would give Tessio a small position of power of some kind. Peter Clemenza might be killed since he was a loyal follower to the Corleone family for so many years.

Nah. Once Mike was removed Tessio would have inherited the Corleone organization as the Master. Notice how loyal the other N.Y. Family Dons were loyal to Barzini? That's how Tessio would have been: A loyal puppet in the council.

Peter Clemenza said it all "with you gone Godfather me and Pete will come under the thumb of Brazini, and I hate that Bastard Brazini!"

Tessio wanted to go over as the strong move, not rolled over as a leftover of the spoils of war.

Exactally, I think Tessio would have been whacked by a Barzini buttonman needing to make his bones. Its just like what you said, no one respects a traitor.If he turned traitor once, who's to say hes not going to again, this time against you. Guys like that are never satisfied with what the have and are always looking for something better.

yeah i agree with u totally on this one. tessio would never become the don.

Agreed. Tessio didn't want to be the Don--he just wanted to be on the winning side. He'd have been a Capo under Barzini. But Barzini would always be doubtful about Tessio's loyalty to him (if he betrayed Michael, he'd be a candidate to betray Barzini). I'm guessing he'd have Tessio removed sometime later, and put his own man in.
What about Clemenza? Barzini might have wanted to woo Clemenza because Clemenza was more forceful, more capable of loyalty, than Tessio. But Tessio would have seen Clemenza as a rival and threat to him. My guess: When Tessio and Barzini made their deal, Barzini said, "What about Clemenza?" Tessio would have said, "He'll never go along--he's gotta go." Then Barzini said, "You take care of him, he's your problem."

Sorry but I just can't agree with that. Let us say that Tessio does pull things off. Like Michael said it was a smart move and Tessio was always smarter. Lets get real here even if this is just a movie. Gangster's know what happens when things like this happens. You look at the options and shut your mouth and make the best of the things that are there. Clemenza knows and sees what is going to happen when Vito is gone and Michael has moved out. He is not unloyal to Michael, but he does see the handwriting on the wall. He comes right out and says it. Michael and Vito don't seem to concerned what happens to Tessio and Peter after they leave. In fact it is this very fact that I think Tessio goes and makes the deal.

It Tessio plan works and Michael is dead. Clemenza follows his long time friend and co-capo and finds a spot in the new group. Just like in real life. Sure Barzini isn't going to trust them and will watch his back. Truth is he isn't going to whack everyone because he need them to work their groups. It is all about the money and keeping it coming up to the top.
Who would deal with Barzini if he double crossed everyone who made a deal with him. Fear has it's place, But taking Tessio out just because he turned on his old Don isn't enough to take him out after the deal is done. After all when they put the hit on Vito they didn't take out every Capo and Sonny too.
The hit is enough and Barzini wants things all together not pulled apart.

I know we all love Vito, Michael and the family, put lets face it when you are gone you are gone.

Tessio and Clemenza know this and cut whatever they can to stay where they are and stay alive. This crap about Tessio being a rival and threat to him doesn't play with me. For Christ sake they were in this together from the early days. You never see a hint of Tessio trying to get ahead of Peter and the other way around. If anything keeping Peter alive gives Tessio someone to fall back on and some support that he can trust over all others inside Barzini operation.

yeah Turnbull, I agree completely with what you said that Tessio told Barzini that Clemenza would never betray the Corleones and that he had to be killed.

Yes, he would never be the one to set the deal and take Michael out, but once Michael is gone that doesn't make Clemenza a problem. In fact he knows that Clemenza is a team player and loyal to his team which now has a new owner.
Don't forget he wants all of Peters operations to follow their leader so how far down the ranks do you kill off before everyone else follows along?

My take on that scenerio is this. It all depends on how everything else plays out. If Tessio is successful in taking out Michael, Clemenza and Hagen would have to have been taken out at the same time as Mike. That would have totally weakened what is left of Corleone control. If Barzini and Tessio do NOT take out Clemenza and Hagen at the same time as Mike, they run the risk of allowing Neri and Lampone to team up with Clemenza. In my opinion Neri and Lampone have absolutely NO power alone, but with Clemenza on thier side, they become more powerful as now 3 regimes are united, the most powerful and deepest rooted one being Clemenza's, and they stand to put up a good fight with Barzini. Remember something, even though the Pentangeli character was added because Castellano did not want to settle for the money offered, in context of the movie, we must figure Pentangelli into the equation also. He was probably the most powerful Button in Clemenza's regime, so there is even more strength. If Clemenza is not taken out, add Hagen into the mix along with the other 3 regimes and Barzini has a fight on his hands. Hagen, while not a Don, was the Consigliere for Vito and obviously had many of the contacts and connections because of his High position with Vito. If I was Barzini, that is how I would plan the takeover, take out Michael, Hagen and Clemenza, the rest of the soldiers all fall down, and your odds of any sort of serious resistance are cut down big time. As for what would happen to Tessio, well, I do think that Barzini would never had trusted him again, being that he showed that he was a traitor to The Corleone's after so any years with them. I think that if Tessio steps out of line one iota, or is suspected of anything in the smallest way, Barzini gets rid of him.


Don Cardi

You are forgetting a few things. First of all both Tessio's and Clemenza's regimes are weaken at this time and have not had any new members as not to give Barzini a reason to start up again.( not to mention Michael has taken new men off the streets that are available in his secret regime) This is why they are at odds over everything. If Michael leaves for Vegas they both feel that they cannot keep from coming under the control of Barzini. So if together they cannot fight Barzini together how can Clemenza do it alone?
Neither Tessio or Clemenza know about Micheal's new secret regime, even though Tom does know and says so in a delete clip. Neither Tom or Clemenza have any control over these men and they have no loyalty except to Michael. Who now will be dead.

Like Michael says all his people are business people so what makes you think that these men would follow Tom who isn't a leader or Fat Clemenza. Who in my mind they (Roco and Neri) are there as the future of the family and don't report to either men.

Second, Tom has NO power or connections, just like Michael didn't until his father worked with him to get people over to Michael. This work took some time and even at Don Vito's death wasn't set in place as much as they really wanted. They just didn't have time. Tom couldn't take over with these connections so there is no power there. The family power was its connections which is why they wanted Don Vito in on the big drug deal in the first place also their money.


Castellano is nothing but a character change, no added power there.

Remember at this time Michael and Vito have let everyone including Barzini, their Capos and every other families think that they are weak which they were without the new hidden regime. So every other family would not help the old Fat Capo fight back. They would stay with what they think is the winning side of Barzini. So Barzini is not standing alone in any case.

In my mind, Michael get knocked off. Tessio's job is now to make the call to Clemenza and give his old friend the story of how things are and sell him the new deal with Barzini. Clemenza is old, not a fighter but a follower, but I do think smart enough to take the deal when he realizes that he is now standing alone. And like everyone else here? Who can trust who at this point?

Christ sake this stuff about Barzini not trusting Tessio and knocking him off because he wasn't loyal to his last don is just that crap. He will be watched I am sure. Any smart man would watch everyone including his own people. Tessio could be used and would be needed to control both Clemenza and the old families businesses.

Could anyone in any family trust anyone in this business world of theirs?

Yes, you are right and bring up a very good point about the regimes being weakened at that point. As for the secret regimes that were unknown to the others, there was always a possibility that Neri and Lampone would have revealed those secret regimes to Clemenza had Michael been killed. Agreed that TOm has no power, but no connections, I disagree with that statement. He was alongside The Don through all of his dealings. Heck, even in the begining of GFI when Nazorine leaves after making his request, the Don instructs Tom to give the job to one of the political connections. True that the Don was the one who has the power with the political connections, but it is obvious that Tom knew all of the people in the right places as he was the one who contacted them when the need arose. I also believe that one of the reasons that Sollozo did not kill Tom while thinking the Don dead was because he knew that Tom could still contact those political connections if Sonny made the deal. While I agree that Tom could never actually take over, there is no doubt that he could have been an asset to Lampone, Neri and Clemenza had they decided to join forces. You said it yourself, the regimes were made to look weak for appearances sake for Barzini. Clemenza could definately recruit new people if the need arose. As for your statement that Castellano was just a character change, I said that in my last post, but that is looking at it and knowing the real life story. I am talking about looking at it from within the storyline/movie itself. Pentangelli was a powerful force inside Clemenza's regime becasue he was the one to take over when Clemenza was dead. Again, this is looking at it from within the storyline and not what took place with the directors/studio in real life. As for my opinion about Barzini not trusting Tessio after that, etc. I see absolutely no reason why you should be so hostile in your reply to my original post! That is my opinion, and just like I respect your opinions, you should respect mine and not be so hostile in your replies! Telling someone that the way they interpret a situation (that really never existed) is a lot of crap is not being respectful at all. You are right that any smart man would watch his people. All I feel is that he would probably be under more scrutiny than others in Barzini family because Barzini knows for sure that Tessio has the ability to turn traitor, and if Tessio slipped just one hair length, he'd be gone like that. Again, you definately bring up some really excellent points on this subject, and I respect your veiw.


Don Cardi

Sorry but I don't mean to sound hostile-

First Page 398 in the book "ever since Don Corleone had made the peace with the five families, the strength of the Corleone family had declined. The Barzini Faily was now indisputably the most powerful one in the New York Area...they now held the position the Corlene Family had once held."
Page 399-"Clemenza and Tessio were annoyed with Michael because he had reduced the strength of their regimes and had never reconstituted Sonny's regime. The Corleone Family, in effect, had now only two fighting divisions with less personnel than formerly. Clemenza and Tessio considered this suicidal, expecially with the Barzini-Tattaglia encroachments on their empires."

You keep saying regimes with an s meaning more then one. Michael built one new regime controled thru Neri but under Rocco Lampone. Page 403

Sometimes people make statements with no backing of any kind, so just saying it does not make it true. so I feel that it is crap, Opinion is one thing, twisting facts and making up stuff I guess gets to me. No hostility meant.

You excerps from the novel back up what you say. It's been many years since I read the novel, may be time to read it once again. Remember we are talking about a Fictional Movie with Fictional characters and not something that is true! As for facts and statements, no one is here has made any statements based on "facts" as the scenerio that was played out here was based on "what ifs" and "hypothetically speaking" scenerios from the movie. So therefore, that being the case, there could be no "facts" but only opinions. No hostility on this end either.

Don Cardi

My own 2¢ -

Tessio was giving up Mike in the hopes he'd be allowed (by a strong member of the Commission) to head up what was left of The Corleone Family. Barzini would have had a great deal of influence in actually running the Corleones with Tessio being the titular head of the Family.

Its happened before - consider Carlo Gambino whacking his boss (Albert Anastasia) in 1957 with the backing of a strong member of The Commission (Vito Genovese).

Someone said something about 3 Regimes? One run by Clemenza? 2 Secret ones run by Rocco and Neri?

Neri didn't have a secret regime in GF1. Rocco did. After Tessio's disposal Neri took his place as Commander of that regime.

I agree with fathersson. As he stated, Michael said all of "our people" are businessmen. Their allegience is to themselves and what makes their business better. When Michael said Tessio's betrayal was the smart move. He meant it from a business standpoint; and in theory. Even Michael understood that Barzini would take Tessio in and use him to best advantage; muscle and business. Tessio saw his business interests best served by defecting.

Little did they know what Michael had planned.

Marycas,

Yes, I agree with what you are saying 100%, but no one can convince me that Barzini would have ever taken his eyes off of Tessio. I strongly believe that if Barzini and Tessio would have succedded in taking out the Corleones, as you and fatherson have said, Barzini would have let Tessio oversee the operations that part of the family. But I put myself in Barzini's shoes, knowing deep down that I made a person turn traitor to a family that he was part founder of, if this person was now working under me, I would have him watched like a hawk! The first inkling of his being suspected of something, he would be gone by my order! If a person is not loyal enough to stick with his people and go down fighting, then there is absolutely no way that I would ever trust them to go down fighting for me either! By turning traitor, ( and yes, it defiantely was the smart business decision ) I now know that they have the potential to do it again, maybe to me. I could never respect a person who turned on anyone, even my enemy, business or not, because in my heart I know that if the better deal came along, they would turn on me also.

Look at us on here, we are RE-WRITING the Godfather movie! LOL! Maybe they should let us all write a book called " What If The Godfather ..."
This is exactly what makes this board so great, the different prespectives, veiws and opinions that we all have. All are valid and great.

Don Cardi

Yeah, that is the reason the family had a lot of buffers!


Sure and the only thing you have to fear is fear itself.

There is a very good chance that Tessio would never ever get close to Bazini again..Buffered my many TRUSTED People.

The "What If" Book would be a big seller...the POSSIBILITIES!!!

I concur Don Cardi, Tessio's position in the Barzini family would be tenuous. He would have to prove himself and vice versa, Barzini would have to show his support of Tessio. There would be a lot of feeling out of each other. And I'm sure Barzini would have someone shadowing Tessio's every move.

Barzini certainly wouldn't have had confidence in Tessio as a loyal soldier, but nor as an outright traitor. We see that the new york families, including the Barzini family, are very business minded, there is less of a "personal" aspect involved. Barzini would have regarded Tessio as a man making the correct business decision: the Corleone's are losing, and Tessio knows it's smarter to join Barzini. Barzini wouldn't feel too threatened by Tessio until he was vulnerable to attack, after all, Tessio probably wouldn't sell him out in the future unless he was in a similar predicament to Mike's. But doubtless he would not have trusted Tessio much anyway.