After the Tahoe hit, of course.

This awnser seems easy to me. Mike says to Frankie concerning the Tahoe hit..."In my home....in my bedroom, where my WIFE sleeps....where my CHILDREN come to play w/ their toys."

If someone shoots up your bedroom it's time to grab the revolver. Mike leaves Tom in charge, saying..."I'm trusting you with the lives of my WIFE and my CHILDREN.

He then leaves to meet w/ Roth and Pentangeli(the potential assassins) to put them in check, and delay any further attempts they may have in mind. After all, if the assassins will shoot up his bedroom and cause him to shield his wife from bullets, who's to say they won't try something more drastic....

******
As for Micheal's quest for legitimacy

After Kay calls him out for his five year legitimacy-plan NOT working, he say's...."I know, I'm trying darling," I can't see any reason to think that Mike did not think the gambling plans w/ Roth would lead to legitimacy. He thought that the Corleone monopoly on legalized gambling would in fact lead to long last legitimacy. I believe that as Mike dances with Kay at the party he believes Johnny's message about Roth going along w/ the Klingman 'move out' to be true. He thinks that as soon as the move to legalized gambling goes through the Corleones will be legit....But....the next scene in the movie proves him wrong. It's all a dream, b/c Roth sends gunmen to kill Mike. Mike's dreams of legitimacy are just that, a dream. The quest will go on, and on....

Okay Ice, I'll go along with that.

Although, if Kay and the children were harmed, I don't really think it would have been deliberate.

But, as I said, I'll go along with it, because it's a sad fact of life that in any war, there is bound to be collateral damage.

As far as Michael's quest for legitimacy, by Godfather Part 2 it was too late.

The point that Turnbull made, and the point that I was responding to, was that Michael still had a window of opportunity to escape the life when he came home from Sicily, while Vito was still alive.

I still agree with Turnbull that Michael could have approached Vito and I'd have to believe that Vito could have made a deal for him to be peacefully let out, free to go his own way in life.

Then what becomes of the Corleone crime family after Vito?

To me, that seems like pure speculation. Doesn't mean it isn't the most likely scenario, but it's still speculation.

The facts of the case are that Mike told Kay....My pop was injured, I had to protect him. What else could I do? Then...Roth double crossed me and my plans of legitimacy went through the window with the bullets he shot at me. What could I do? I had to protect my family.

Now...if we are going to assume that this is either disillusionment on his part, or that it was another of his lies to Kay, fine. But...I believe him. I don't think he's lying to himself or to her.

Even before I saw 3, I always assumed that Mike's involvement was forced on him. Perhaps he could have pulled the plug and gotten out, but....once your in there's no getting out. Am I wrong about this? Are we to assume that Mike(or anyone for that matter) can really leave?

I still watch the movies with the idea that Mike's life in the 'family' has been forced on him. It's not his plan, not his intention. He's doing what he has to do and what he was forced to do. Like TB says all the time, the hospital scene in 1 is when Mike's life in the 'family' begins. I find it hard to believe that he or anyone else(Vito) ever thought there was a chance of him turning back. Once you're in you're in....

You make a valid point Ice, but the thing is, if we're going to get technical about the rules, which neither Puzo nor FFC never did, we don't know, and we'll never know, if Michael was made after Sicily.

The mob's long standing rule of "once you're in, there's no getting out", applies to it's made members, not it's associates.

I was looking at it from the point of view that Michael could have approached Vito before he was formally inducted into the family. His bloodright would not have precluded him from being formally made into the family.

So I'll stick to my guns. Michael could have asked out, before he was ever officially in.

You're all forgetting one thing.....


"It's the way pop wanted it."




Don Cardi

Michael didn't WANT out!! He was IN, for life. He held his father's hand, and he said, I'm with you now, Pop. When the family was threatened, the "real" Michael surfaced, and it was a Michael that wanted revenge, no matter the price. As Vito says frequently in the novel, Every man has one destiny. This was Michael's. That destiny was cemented with the deaths of Sonny and Appolonia. He could've backed out when he came home, let Tessio and Clemenza take over the family, but he didn't. He wanted to take charge, plot his revenge, and then grow his source of power.

As for being legitimate, he couldn't. Even after his attempts at justifying his choices in GF3, what does he do? Kneeling at Don Tomassino's coffin after his confession, he swears that if he has one more chance, he will sin no more. And then he promptly rises, turns, and gives Vincent the order. And he paid the ultimate price.

Yes SB !

That's exactly what I'm saying, that there was a window where he could have backed out, but he didn't. He didn't, because he didn't want to. Michael wanted power, Michael NEEDED to be a powerful man.

Once he got the actual taste of that power, there was no way he was ever going to relinquish it.

Michael's choice was whether to be in Rome or not.

I know I'm not supposed to compare novel/movie in this forum, but....the novel does briefly mention Michael having a 'made' ceremony of sorts after the Sollozo shooting. Seems to me that associates would especially have to take the vow b/c they could bring the whole operation down if they ever turned state. And I don't think Vito could have pulled Mike out of the family after Sicily b/c as Don Tomassino says ...'your enemies know you're here.' There were enough ppl who knew that Mike was involved, enough ppl that knew Mike had pulled the trigger and was now 'one of them.' I don't think it would sit too well w/ the other dons if Mike decided to 'dangle his toes in the water' and then leave.

I don't think there's any doubt that Mike's lust for revenge made it impossible to leave the life. But I don't see how someone could get in as far as he did, and then just duck out. As far as handing the operation over to Tessio/Clemenza, I've posed this question in yrs past, and always gotten the impression that this was not possible. Someone in the Corleone family would have to be in charge, probably as a matter etiquette. If it was possible to hand over the operation to Clemenza/Tessio then why didn't Vito do this from the start? Why not save Mike the anguish and then simply let him go on to be Senator Corleone while Tessio runs the family? Plus, concerning Mike's possible 'exit' from the family, after killing Sollozo Mike would have probably been safer as a made member. If he becomes a civilian he is perhaps even more vulnerable to a revenge attack.

As soon as Mike kills Sollozo and McCluskey I think his fate is sealed. He is in. Perhaps if his involvement had not been so hands on it could have been different. But he was just too far in to ever leave IMO. His chance to 'leave' would have been the world of legalized gambling, etc. Here he could have still been a Don but would not have had to deal w/ the day to day trials of being a mob boss.

Why is this a matter of etiquette ?

Don't get me wrong, Ice. It makes for a more grand, even Shakesperean storytelling, but in the mob, this hasn't always been the case.

Carlo Gambino's son Tommy made it all the way to capo, yet was passed over in favor of Paul Castellano, then had to eat shit from John Gotti, just to keep his stripes. Joe Bonanno's insistence on putting his son Bill in charge, fueled the Bonanno wars in the 60s, leading to the forced retirement of both father and son (once your in, you're never out ?). Now, the Bonanno's "retirement" was a very rare happening, but it still happened.

More recently, there's the case of the Gigante family. The sons were given good livings, but never inducted. As a matter of fact, Vincent Gigante expressed shock and disbelief when John Gotti told him that "Junior" had been made. His words, "geez, I'm sorry to hear that".

Now, there are gangsters who force the life on their sons, I'm hardly arguing that. It's just that it's always been a matter of choice, not a matter of etiquette.

SB said it all when she said Michael didn't want out. I'm going to re-post an answer I offered on this board about three years ago:

Some on these boards believe Michael is a tragic figure. Yes, there’s a ton of tragedy in his life—all self-inflicted. He had free choice at every turn, and he freely chose the Mob life, with disastrous results. Here are four major examples that I’d like your opinions on:

First: He was right to think Sollozzo would try to kill his father after the failed hospital attempt. He was wrong to believe that only he could save his father, by killing Sollozzo and McCluskey. Ironically, an idea that Michael himself had suggested could have been modified to solve the problem bloodlessly. The Corleones could have fed the newspapermen on their payroll the story about McCluskey being a dishonest cop mixed up in drugs and murder before, not after, the trigger was pulled. McCluskey was on the take all his life, and the Corleones had all the details because they paid him. The newspapers would have given that story such headlines that the Police Commissioner would have been shamed into providing Vito with an army to protect him, to save further embarrassment. McCluskey and Sollozzo would have been neutralized without any bloodshed. At minimum, McCluskey would have been transferred or suspended pending investigation; with pressure from the Corleone judges, he’d have been indicted for taking bribes. Sollozzo would have been arrested and probably deported as an undesirable alien. With McCluskey alive, the cops would have had no reason to crack down on all Mob activities. There would have been no Five Families War of 1946, leaving it a contest between the Corleones and the Tattaglias—and as we know, Tattaglia was a pimp, alone he could never have outfought Santino. Michael could have married Kay and gone back to college (and we would have had no Godfather Trilogy!).
Instead, Michael chose to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey, setting in motion his abandonment of Kay, his Sicilian exile, the Five Families War, Carlo’s betrayal, Sonny’s murder, Apollonia’s murder.

Second: He could have resumed the legitimate life after returning from Sicily. He could have said to Vito: “Pop, I was wrong to distance myself from you. But I atoned: I saved your life. And I paid a heavy price: two murders, abandoned my beloved fiancée, lost months out of my life in Sicily, lost my beloved bride to a bomb intended for me. We’re quits. Now you run the family…Oh, not feeling well enough to take the reins? Fredo not equal to the task? Sorry, Pop, that’s not my problem. Besides, you always said you didn’t want this for me—you wanted me to be a pezzanovante. Well, I can’t be Senator Corleone or Governor Corleone if I’m Don Corleone. Bye-bye.”
Instead, Michael chooses to become the Don, setting in motion Tessio’s betrayal, the Great Massacre of 1955, Connie’s widowhood and breakdown, and the beginning of Kay’s disillusionment with him.

Third: After moving to Tahoe, Michael could have retired behind the walls of his compound and invested his wealth legitimately—even putting money up-front in the legal casinos of Nevada.
Instead, he chose to hide his ownership or controlling interest in three hotels; muscle Klingman out of his interest in a fourth hotel; dominate the New York mob scene through Frankie Pentangeli; undercut Pentangeli through his support of the Rosato Brothers and their drug-dealing; stake Fredo to ownership of a brothel, and plan for a huge international expansion of his gambling empire through his deal with Roth. Results: Fredo’s betrayal; the machinegun attack that nearly killed Kay in her bed and scared the bejesus out of his kids; Kay’s estrangement, abortion and divorce; Anthony’s estrangement; Fredo’s murder (and a host of other killings).

Fourth: he was “legitimate” in GFIII—but was he? He whines, “Just when I thought I was out, they pull me back in.” But he was never out. He either was still a member of the Commission or influential enough to keep Zasa from rising (so Vincent tells us). He laundered his Mob cronies’ money through his “legitimate” businesses (maybe through his foundations) and cut Zasa out of his share. Result: the machinegun attack in Atlantic City that killed all his pals and precipitated his diabetic stroke. It wasn’t enough that he became a Papal Knight: he had to dominate International Immobiliare by bribing crooked-as-a-corkscrew Archbishop Gilday, setting in motion Altobello’s betrayal and putting him against Don Lucchese, who was far more powerful in Europe. And, in an act of supreme irresponsibility and egotism: told that Sicily’s top assassin—“a man who never fails”—has targeted him, Michael gathers his entire family around him in Sicily, making them all sitting ducks. Surprise, surprise: his beloved Mary gets killed and his budding reconciliation with Kay is nipped in the bud, leading to his own, lonely death, attended by a little dog.

Michael succeeded--in turning everything he touched into death, including his own.

Absolutely correct. To me Michael is likened to Shakespeare's character McBeth. Not exactly like him, but yet very similar in the sense that he was a highly intelligent man, and at the same time a self destructive man.





Difficult, but not impossible. Maybe that strategy could have worked. However it could have also backfired. It is my opinion that if they chose not to kill Sollozo, then it would have still left some kind of an opening for Sollozo to kill, or have Vito killed, in some other manner.



You are right. Upon his return from Italy there was still that window of opportunity for Michael to refuse to continue in the life. But at that point, after his handling a possible confrontation with the hitmen outside the hospital, followed by his confrontation with McClusky, his killing Sollozo and McClusky, and then the murder of his brother and his wife, he had grown into a hardened man who was now seeking vengence. And I believe that it gave him self gratification knowing that he was capable of committing murder in cold blood and not having any guilt about it. I believe that he "got himself off" from that feeling of being able to kill. Having this lust to avenge the murder of Appolonia and Sonny combined with his ability to commit murder is what became the driving force in him. It became an ego trip, a power trip. A "yeah, I can really do this" feeling.




The key word being "controlling." He had now reached a point that he had become so consumed with achieving more power. Almost obessessed with wanting to control everyone and every situation that he could.





At this point Michael is trying to convince himself that he has become legitimate. The Papl honors ceremony, his dealing with the Vatican and Immobiliare. It was a facade that he put on that really only was done for his own satisfaction. Done to justify to himself that the the all powerful and mighty Michael had finally brought the family into legitimacy. A way to find self redemption for all the terrible things that he did in his life. The terrible hurt that he caused to those around him that loved him. But deep down Michael really knew that no matter how many legitimate business deals he made, or how many honors that he recieved, or how many dollars he raised for the foundation, he was not really out. Could never really be out. Deep down he knew that in his own lust for control and power, in his journey to feed his own ego, he did not and could not ever truely bring the family to being completely legitimate. He knew, inside himself, that this was the business HE had chosen.



Don Cardi

That's it right there, DC: "..trying to convince himself..." Yes, the real tragedy of Michael's life is his self-deception. He doesn't really want to be legit, he just wants to think he's legit because he thinks he's no worse than the pezzanovanti of politics or the church. "If those guys can lie, cheat, steal and get away with murder, and be considered legit, why shouldn't I?" Never a thought that he could be what Kay called him: "A common Mafia hood." (Well, not "common," perhaps, but a hood nonetheless.)

Brillant post, TB, even by your standards.

However, I do not entirely agree with your conclusions.

The main issue I have is with #2. I do not believe that Michael could have returned to normal life after killing two men. Once McCluskey was killed, the cops cracked down and the war was on. It strains credulity to think the Michael, who instigated the war, would be considered a civilian any longer. Even if Vito's peace kept him safe for a while, I feel Michael would always be considered a member of the family from that time forward - fair game for the next time bad blood erupts.

But even if you feel he would be safe from Mafia retribution, what kind of life would Michael have had in the legitimate world after being accused of killing two men? The Bocacchio confession would clear him legally, but not in the court of public opinion. While it's possible that the son of a Mafia don could be elected Senator or Governor, the son of a Mafia don suspected in two murders would never have been. The only jobs he could have gotten with enough power to satisfy him would have been connected to the illegitimate world.

I agree that Michael chose the life he led, and that he had many chances to get out. However, once he pulled the trigger his previous life was over.

Agreed. This would have been difficult, but not impossible.

Of course, there was a third potential course of action: Sonny's. Move agressively to kill Sollozzo at the earliest opportunity. If it was done in a way that did not involve killing McCluskey, this may have ensured the safety of Vito without launching a war.

Maybe Sonny wasn't such a bad don after all.

It would make no sense to expose McCluskey as a dishonest cop just for the hell of it. As Michael said the "key" was killing Sollozzo. If some story had run that McCluskey was a dishonest cop, where would the proof be? And wouldnt that just have Solozzo get himself another dishonest cop? The point is they had to kill Sollozzo, and then they had to figure out how to deal with the fallout of the "collateral damage" that was McCluskey. This was all Michael's idea, not Sonny's. In fact Tom had talked Sonny into waiting it out before Michael intervened.

So Sonny WAS a bad Don.

Wonderful posts all, guys! Another great exchange on these boards! I'd like to respond. Not disageeing with any of you (nobody's speculation is wrong on this subject), just follow-up thoughts:
DC: It's true that Vito would always be in danger--but then, all Mafia Dons are constantly in danger from other families and from climbers like Sollozzo. Vito's biggest mistake was in underestimating the danger that his "no" to Sollozzo posed to him. Sollozzo might have been a continued danger down the road. But if the newspapers exposed the McCluskey/Sollozzo alliance, the cops would have been forced to hunt down Sollozzo and either jail or deport him. That'd give Vito time to learn from his mistake and take precautions. But even if Sollozzo were killed, he'd still have enemies.

Last Woltz: It's literally true that Michael would never be the same after committing two premeditated murders. I don't think anyone would be the same. But Michael was never publicly identified as a suspect in the S&M murders, and the [SPOILER] Bocchicchio confession cinched it. Of course other Mafiosi knew, and would regard him as having forfeited his "civilian" status. But as a counterpoint, I'd offer that, having killed two guys who weren't members of the Five Families (Sollozzo was essentially a Sicilian freelancer), Michael stood a better chance of not attracting long-term vengeance than if he had. The peace settlement that Vito negotiated effectively saved Michael's life. Barzini moved against him not for killing S&M, but because he saw him as a weak and vulnerable successor to Vito--a job that Michael chose. The key phrase that you used is "The only jobs he could have gotten with enough power to satisfy him would have been connected to the illegitimate world." Exactly! "...to satisfy him..." Had he been satisfied with civilian life, he might have achieved a semblance of normalcy. To echo DC: "Difficult, not impossible."

dt: McCluskey wouldn't be exposed "just for the hell of it." The objective would be to neutralize him. No doubt the "blue wall of silence" would protect him from actual prosecution (though the Corleones' considerable political muscle might result in a case being made against McCluskey). But, after the newspaper stories, I'm reasonably certain that the police brass would move McCluskey to some other assignment, or even suspend him temporarily, to keep the heat off the department until the flap died down. He'd be in no position to help anyone mount another attempt on Vito. And thereafter, McCluskey would be of no use to organized crime--damaged goods.

TB great overall analysis of the various points of view, but on this point I would say that Vito DID understand the danger of his "no" to Sollozzo, and it is why he dispatched Luca to find out what Solozzo had underneath his fingernails. I think the mistake Vito made was using Luca as his spy. First of all Luca's loyalty to the Don was legendary, and I don't think Sollozzo or Tattaglia Jr. bleieved the deception for one minute. After all Luca was not exactly the smoothest character around. If anything, by sending Luca to pretend he would betray Vito showed Sollozzo, Tattaglia and Barzini how seriouisly Vito was taking his "no." It also told them that Vito would not simply allow the drug business to flourish as long as Sollozzo's interests did not conflict with his. in other words the real message Luca inadvertantly sent was that Vito had to be taken out.

Thereafter two ironical unintended consequences drive the plot forward. The first was the assassination attempt itself. Vito did not see it coming. The second was the fact that the attempt failed. Sollozzo defintely did not see that coming.

dt, that's an excellent point that I hadn't thought of before. Well taken!

Wow, great insight all around. I think it speaks to why we all love these movies so much. You can discuss pretty much any aspect of the story.

One related aspect I had always wondered was that if Vito really placed the Tattaglias at the head of this deal with Sollozzo rather than Barzini, did it ultimately lead to his being shot. By this I mean it becomes known later that Barzini was behind Sonny's death, not Tattaglia, and Vito seems to think less of Tattaglia ("Tattaglia's a pimp, he could have never vouched for Santino"). If Vito knew that Barzini was the "driving force" behind this partnership with Sollozzo, would he have considered his decisions on the narcotics differently. Did Vito think Barzini was more dangerous than Tattaglia?

No, he did not realize it was Barzini. He tells Tom "Idid not know UNTIL THIS DAY that it was Barzini all along." By "all along" I think he is saying it was Barzini who was really the power behind Sollozzo, and that Tattaglia was merely a front.
If you watch the meeting of all the Dons, you will see Tattaglia keep looking to Barzini to take the lead...and you see Barzini literally take over the meeting.

That I understand, what I'm asking is if Vito knew the truth from the beginning about Barzini, would he have acted differently to refusing the deal with Sollozzo?

Vito's mind was made up about the drug business, not for moral reasons, but for practical ones.

It wouldn't have made a difference who his "would be" partners in drugs would have been. He wouldn't have made the deal with any of them.

I agree he would not have made the deal, but if i understand the underlying question, it is would Vito have acted differently if he knew it was Barzini and not Tattaglia. I would say the answer is yes. First of all he would not have sent Luca to make a deal with the Tattaglias because the Tattaglias were not really calling th shots.

Instead, had he known it was Barzini, I think he would have proceeded with more caution and cunning. He would have seen immediately that Barzini, for whatever reason wanted to be the "hidden hand" in all this, and he would have immediately seen that his position was going to pit the Corleones against all the other five families. I think it would have called for a totally different strategy, perhaps one in which Sollozzo was taken out.

It occurs to me that this could be another potential area where Hagen let the Corleones down. Vito sent Tom to deal with the Johnny Fontaine matter, and that took Tom's eye off the ball on the Sollozzo deal. Tom "just assumed" it was Tattaglia, and as every lawyer knows you never should "just assume" anything.

Vito's comments to Tom seem to me to be very revealing.

By dismissing the possibility that Tattaglia could have been behind Sollozzo, but admitting he didn't know it was Barzini all along, it raises the question of exactly when he realized that there was a "hidden hand" behind Sollozzo/Tattaglia.

The obvious answer is when Santino was outfought. This showed Vito that his true adversary was both hidden and dangerous.

I agree that Vito would have acted differently had he realized this from the start. That's why I believe Vito's sudden determination to end the war was not merely (or even primarily) the act of a grieving father, but that of a Mafia don who realizes he's made a terrible error in judgment.

I agree DT. Different opponent, different strategy.

I think that had Vito known that Sollozzo was aligned with Barzini from the very beginning, he would have taken a more agressive stance. Perhaps taking out Sollozzo as a pre-emptive measure, then sitting down with Barzini to avoid an all out war.

He could have reasoned that Sollozzo was a cowboy, who had to be dealt with, and made some type of deal with Barzini to avoid the war.

Yes, Vito certainly would have proceeded differently if he'd perceived from the beginning that Barzini was behind the drugs deal. The novel makes clear that Barzini intended to supplant Vito, and Vito would have known it. So, if Barzini had vouched for Sollozzo prior to their meeting, Vito would have taken the matter far more gravely--perhaps even made a preventive strike against both.
I've speculated on this board that Sollozzo would have approached Barzini first. He'd have seen that Barzini, as the would-be heir-apparent, would have more to gain from the drugs business than anyone else. But Barzini would have told him, "Look, Vito Corleone is old-fashioned about drugs. If he sees that I'm behind you, he'll not only turn you down but will feel threatened and may come after both of us. Instead, go to Tattaglia. Tattaglia's a pimp, and Vito won't see him as a threat to him. I'll be behind you and Tatt--silently."

Another tipoff: Vito opens the meeting by thanking Barzini for "helping me to arrange this meeting [emphasis added]." But Vito's little helper doesn't act like a mere helpmate. He sits at the head of the table; takes the lead in indicting Vito ("His are not the actions of a friend...he must let us draw the water from the well..."); declares an agreement made as soon as Vito says he's willing to do whatever's necessary for peace; brokers the embrace of Tattaglia and Vito-- and (nice touch!) is the only one of the Dons who smokes a cigarette instead of a DiNobli, a sure sign of an up-and-coming modern Don. Meanwhile Vito was at his most humble. He made Barzini show his hand. Too bad he didn't figure out Barzini beforehand.

Nice touch yourself TB!! I prefer the DiNobli myself though! Guess I'm a little old fashioned in these matters!!