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What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40021
07/26/06 09:47 PM
07/26/06 09:47 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 6
SantinoFan Offline OP
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SantinoFan  Offline OP
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Posts: 6
Why exactly does Michael remove Tom as consigliere once he takes over the family and makes non-family member Carlo the new consigliere? Vito's consigliere was Tom and he told Tom to give Carlo a living but to never discuss the family business with him. Later on Michael has Tom act as Don while he goes to Cuba but then later on becomes aggressive with him again when asking if Tom is going to be leaving the family business in Nevada? Once Michael returns, does Tom stay on as his consigliere or does he return to his position as family lawyer? Basically, what's Michaels beef with Tom who is basically a brother to him?

Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40022
07/27/06 07:32 AM
07/27/06 07:32 AM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 607
Peter_Clemenza Offline
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Peter_Clemenza  Offline
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Posts: 607
I don't think it has anything to do with the fact that Michael Corleone disliked Tom Hagen. I think it was to do with Michael wanting to be completely in control of the way the Corleone Family was ran. Also, Carlo Rizzi was never officially promoted to Consigliere. His position within the Corleone Family remained as a Soldier. We learn that he is "Made" when Don Corleone orders Tom to "give him a 'living,' but never discuss the Family business with him." I think you are referring to when Michael "promoted" him to his unofficial advisor, since he was from Las Vegas, but none of his plans for Carlo really mattered, since he was already sure that Carlo was the traitor, who set Sonny Corleone up for the Barzini/Tattaglia hit at the Causeway and he had probably already made plans to have Carlo murdered. Also, when Michael returned to Nevada from his business trips to Miami and Cuba, Tom took up his usual position as the Family lawyer, but he still held a high position within the Family.

Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40023
07/27/06 08:58 AM
07/27/06 08:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 275
UK
Paul Krendler Offline
The Dude
Paul Krendler  Offline
The Dude
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 275
UK
Quote
Originally posted by SantinoFan:
Vito's consigliere was Tom...
Genco was Vito's consigliere but, in the book and in a deleted scene in the movie, Genco passed away. Tom took over as a temporary consigliere to Vito and remained in the post after Vito's death and through Michael's tenure as the Don (except for the events of Part III).

However, and correct me if I'm wrong guys, Michael tells Carlo that he will be his 'right hand man' when they make the move to Vegas. The term 'right hand man' does not necessarily mean consigliere, in this instance it probably means the first buffer between Michael and the caporegimes. However, we know that Michael had no intention of letting Carlo get that close - it was an act of misdirection to lull Carlo into a false sense of security, paving the way for Michael's revenge for Sonny's death.


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Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40024
07/27/06 10:12 AM
07/27/06 10:12 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
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Don Cardi Offline
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Don Cardi  Offline
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Quote
Originally posted by SantinoFan:
Why exactly does Michael remove Tom as consigliere once he takes over the family. Basically, what's Michaels beef with Tom who is basically a brother to him?
When Michael took over as Don, a part of him knew deep down that he was now ' COMPLETELY IN' and could never really be legitimate, so that is why he kept Tom out of a lot of things that were illegal, etc.

He also did this to protect himself in case anyone under him decided to move against him ("you're the only one that I can trust").

However Michael probably fooled himslef into really believing that he could bring the family to legitimacy, but deep down he knew that Tom had to remain somewhat legitimate to help him with his dream.


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Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40025
07/27/06 10:22 AM
07/27/06 10:22 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline
goombah  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
Quote
Originally posted by SantinoFan:
Why exactly does Michael remove Tom as consigliere once he takes over the family and makes non-family member Carlo the new consigliere? Vito's consigliere was Tom and he told Tom to give Carlo a living but to never discuss the family business with him.
Santino Fan - Welcome!!

The whole deal with Carlo can be seen in context with the line Michael uses in GFII - "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." He kept Carlo around and promoted him to make Carlo feel safer. Michael either was sure or investigated until he was sure than Carlo set up Sonny. Keeping Carlo happy and promoting him made everything appear, on the surface, that Carlo was trusted by Michael. We see the same thing with Fredo and Michael in the 2nd film, albeit without the promotion of Fredo to anything important within the Family.

Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40026
07/27/06 12:05 PM
07/27/06 12:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
I also believe that there were two personal factors in Michael's decision to remove Tom as consigliere:
First, Tom was Vito's choice for consigliere after Genco's death--not Michael's. Given Michael's ultra-controlling nature, I don't think that anyone could have served as his consigliere except Michael himself. He served as his own consigliere.
Second, as Michael told him, "You're not a wartime consigliere." I think Michael felt that, as a non-Sicilian, Tom lacked the "cunning" (Puzo's term in the novel) required to be an effective consigliere. I also think Michael held him partly responsible--justly or not-- for Sonny's death by failing to see that Carlo would betray Sonny. In the novel, Tom himself concludes, after Sonny's murder, that he's not "a wartime consigliere...old Genco would have smelled a rat."


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E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
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Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40027
07/27/06 01:36 PM
07/27/06 01:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 6
SantinoFan Offline OP
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SantinoFan  Offline OP
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 6
Thats a good point. It just seems as if throughout 1 and 2 that Michael resents Tom. Michael holding Tom somewhat responsible for Sonny's death and him not being Sicilian explains that. However, I do agree with the earlier post that Michael wanted to keep Tom out of the illegal aspects of the family business as an eventual avenue for going legitimate someday and as a way of keeping Tom completely trustworthy, like when he makes Tom Don during his visit to Cuba.

But why does Michael have Al Neri dig up dirt on Tom and then Michael agressively asks Tom (during their meeting when he mentions Tom's mistress) if he is leaving the family business or going to go along with the things that he has to do? Tom asks hom why he hurts him like that? Is it simply because of Michael still holding him responsible for Sonny's death or something else?

Re: What's the deal with Michael and Tom's relationship? #40028
07/28/06 09:36 AM
07/28/06 09:36 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
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The Last Woltz  Offline
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
Quote

But why does Michael have Al Neri dig up dirt on Tom and then Michael agressively asks Tom (during their meeting when he mentions Tom's mistress) if he is leaving the family business or going to go along with the things that he has to do? Tom asks hom why he hurts him like that? Is it simply because of Michael still holding him responsible for Sonny's death or something else?
I think there's more to it. Michael is a master manipulator.

Earlier, he uses Tom's desire to be viewed as a real brother to manipulate Tom. Later, when Tom begins to get out of line, he puts Tom on the defensive by being hurtful.

In both cases, he achieves his goal of getting Tom's loyalty and quiet submission.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"

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