In the (staged) confession scene at least...Michael did not seek anything. The Cardinal prodded that confession out of him.

Maybe there's another scene that I missed while channelsurfing where he really does seek absolution.

Apple

Well maybe you should watch the WHOLE movie and then voice your opinion instead of channel surfing!

You are partially correct Apple. Michael went to seek an audience with the Cardinal for financial and political reasons. However I believe that Michael also took full advantage of the situation to try and redeem himself once the Cardinal offered him confession. I believe that in his subconscience, all along Michael was seeking out an opportunity to confess his sins to someone, and the Cardinal opened that door for him.

But again, while forgiveness may have been given from God, Michael could not even find forgiveness of himself even after making that confession.




Don Cardi

I think therein lies the conflict. Michael was sincerely sorry and repentant that he killed Fredo, but that was not the only sin he committed or confessed. He was neither sorry about his criminal activities nor any of the other men he killed or ordered to be killed. He just casually mentions these sins without a thought or hint of regret and only truly displays his guilt when confessing his killing of Fredo. I think ordering the death of his mother's son and his father's son tormented Michael his whole life, but I highly doubt he ever felt an inkling of remorse for killing Sollozo or McCluskey or any of his other sins for that matter.

If FFC and Puzo were the sticklers for detail they are given credit for, I think both DC and TB could be correct in their analysis. Michael truly does feel guilt and sorrow about his sins as DC claims, but only a select few such as Fredo's murder. Perhaps Lamberto saw through this in Michael's confession and thus never completed the confession in a traditional way by assigning penance, etc. as TB stated. Confession isn't like a plea bargain where you can whittle away certain sins that don't seem as severe as others.

Don Cardi...your beliefs are precisely why the scene was written and staged in the way it was. It was inserted into the picture specifically for you and others who feel Michael should NOT have had Fredo killed and WANTED to see him pay or answer for that in some way.

That is why it was, is, and will always remain...phony.

Oh, and as stated previously...I've tried to sit through that movie. It just isn't good enough.

Apple

I agree with many of the posts here. I think Fredo's murder was the one and only sin that Michael couldn't live with. However, I also feel that he wasn't necessarily sorry for killing Fredo, but for what killing Fredo would have done to his parents. As Michael said to Kay, he did what he did to save his father. I believe that, although he used that as a rationale for so much evil, it was also true that he loved his father. And I think, more than anything, what weighed on his conscience is the thought of how devastated Vito would've been if he knew that Michael had become the kind of man that would kill his own brother.

If you remember, after his "confession", he speaks at the coffin of Don Tomassino and says that he wishes he had been more like him (and more like Vito?) and that he was loved instead of feared (like Vito?). And he says that he swears on his children that he will sin no more. And then he turns over the reins of power to Vincent, and permission for him to once again murder in the name of "justice".

The fact that he didn't actually have Fredo killed until after the death of their mother is a pretty good indication that he knew what it would do to her .

As for their father, we know what Vito was capable of, we know why he rose to the heights he did. In his final scene with Michael, Vito said women and children could afford to be careless, but not men.

So while Fredo's death would most certainly have devastated Mr. and Mrs. Corleone...one may as well also ponder what Fredo's betrayal would have done to them...especially Vito.

For if Vito had still been alive, neither of those things would've happened.

What might've been a bit more believable was if Michael had vented to someone, anyone about the guilt he felt over Fredo. That would've been somewhat understandable. That it came in the form of a confession, virtually dragged out of him by a Cardinal with whom he was visiting on business...it totally bogus.

Apple

I can't believe that Michael was not truly sorry for the death of Fredo.

Michael has lived his life by a ruthless set of rules. By those rules, it was necessary for Fredo to die. But, by that point, Michael is clearly questioning those rules. Without his rules to rationalize his actions, he's left with the naked truth - that he murdered his own flesh and blood.

Also, I don't think the scenario of the confession was bogus. I think that Michael had it building inside him for some time, but was never in a situation where he could talk to someone with the moral authority to judge (and forgive) him. In a world where Michael cannot achieve legitimancy, it's not far-fetched for Michael to take the rare opportunity to confess to a "true priest."

Incidentally, I think he must have talked about his sorrow over Fredo's death (if not his complicity) at other occasions. When he tells Connie that he made confession, she immediately zeroed in that incident, rather than the million or so other sins Michael has committed.

By the opening scene of GFIII, Michael had obviously been dealing with the Catholic Church for years. His own nephew was a priest. Not that he would've confessed to Tom Hagen's son...but it appears he would've had ample opportunity to "...talk to someone with the moral authority to judge (and forgive) him..."

Long before being bestowed audience to a Cardinal on business matters, because he was 'swindled' by an Archbishop.

The confession scene was bogus.

I think Michael was genuinely sorry for killing Fredo, but I agree that this sin was the only one that tortured him. I for one am of the opinion that Fredo SHOULD have been disposed of, Fredo threw family out the window when he betrayed Michael. But still, I believe Michael regretted it and I am of the opinion that the confession scene was a good one.

Apple I understand your feeling that III is inferior to eh first two movies, as many of us do, but I am sure you have sat through much worse movies than GFIII, so whats the big deal with watching it?

KC

Speaking for myself, after seeing the first 2 and the high standard they have set for the series, I find III just about unwatchable! Every time I watch the first 2 I always find things that I have missed with the last 200 viewings. Whenever I watch III, I find more things that annoy me!

I agree when it comes to comparing GFIII with the first two, but if we are talking about its place in all of cinema history, there are movies IMO that are far much worse.

True..I sat through 'Titanic' back in 1997.

Difference was that then, I was in a theater and had paid for a ticket. Disgusted as I was, it would've been ridiculous to get up and walk out.

If I had gone to see GFIII when it was first released I most definitely would have stayed with it to the end. However, the only option now is television, in my own living room with remote in hand...and I'm not going to force myself to sit through a movie that can't hold my interest past the first 40 minutes, that I know is inferior, is full of bad writing, bad casting, and silly cliche's JUST because it is part of a 'Trilogy' in which the other two are classics.

Thanks for asking.

Apple

I don’t hate you. I dread you.

When they come, they’ll come at what you love.

Our ships must all sail in the same direction…

Politics and crime. They're the same thing…

The mind suffers and the body, cries out.

My master is dead. Blood calls for blood. I must have revenge!

I am your son. Command me on all things.

Nephew, from this moment on, call yourself Vincent Corleone.

I understand and respect your opinion and even agree with about it when being compared to the first two movies, which IMO NO movie can compare to GF I and II.

I just dont think GIII is as horrible as you say.

So we must agree to disagree, I must say I enjoy your blunt honesty.

Well gee...I don't recall ever stating it was outright 'horrible'. At least not in this thread, anyway .

However, I guess I did succeed in getting a point across...

Take care, King_Corleone !!

Apple

You haven't used the word horrible in this thread but in the short time I've enjoyed this bored, you have expressed your distaste for GFIII loud and clear!

You take care of yourself as well Ms. Apple,
KC

Not with a pedigree, that GFIII has, with its director and actors.

You go girl....

It seems that the only saving grace some have for the film is the performance by Andy, not Tony Garcia, and upon careful examination, I even find that terrible. At best he's doing a bad James Caan as Sonny imitation.

With all due respect Johnny Ola I think you mean Andy Garcia.

-KC

Thank you king for bringing that to my attention.......its the age.....I used to call Carlo Carlos

I like to drink wine more than I used to -- anyway, I'm drinking more...

I hope you don't mind the way I -- I keep going over this Garcia business...

It's an old habit. I spent my life trying not to be careless -- women and children can be

careless, but not men.

I still cannot understand how Apple can even give an opinion of a movie that she has NEVER ever sat through from begining to end!


Don Cardi

Anyway...I've seen enough of it to know that I'm not intersted in seeing all of it. To add to all the other 'opinions' I'll state that it's overblown and tries just a bit too hard to equal the other two.

That said...I just can't wait to see what they do with GF4!! Perhaps George Hamilton and Bridget Fonda will be willing to reprise their roles...

Apple

I disagree with the statement that they tried "too hard" to equal the other two. To me it appeared that they just made a remake of the past two, just updating times and dates.

I also disagree with that statement about their "trying too hard."

If anything, they didn't try hard enough to make it as good as GF and GFII.


Don Cardi

I think that the somewhat complicated Vatican storyline (which I've read about in enough detail here on the board) may have been a bit of an attempt to equal the Havana business of GFII. The stuff with Don Altobello rivals the Hyman Roth/Frank Pentangelli plot.

Don't try to tell me bringing Vincent into the story wasn't an attempt to liven things up...and even that wasn't enough for them, they had him falling in love with his cousin, daughter of the Don in whose footsteps he'd like to follow...while at the same time finding an ally in his aunt, whose own grown sons are nowhere to be found (since they apparently did not posess the strength of her father, she may have sent them off to boarding school with a lunchbag full of cannoli's)!!

Meanwhile, the Don's son for whom he had plans...wants no part of the Family Business (now where have I heard that before) and goes on to become an opera star in of all places, Sicily...where his grandfather was born and barely escaped from with his life some 75 years earlier.

And within all of this, the character of Michael Corleone is undeniably being brought 'full circle'.

Ohhhh, no. Didn't try very hard at all. This stuff just flowwwwed off the typewriter...

Apple

The coincidences are overwhelming and are so obvious.

-Starting off with a religious ceremony, marriage,first Holy Communion
-Don Vito and Don Michael receiving people in his office
-group picture taken

etc etc etc

Apple, talk to me about GFIII and it's ENTIRE plot when you've managed to watch the complete movie from begining to end. Then you can tell me if FFC tried hard enough or not.


Didn't the same thing happen a while back, where you gave your opinion about the novel and then we found out that at that point, you still hadn't even read it ?


Don Cardi

I agree with Don Cardi, I dont htink they tried hard enough to make it as good.

Don Cardi, I don't recall ever offering an opinion on the novel...but did mention to people who asked that it isn't necessary to read it in order to appreciate the film.

Which I still happen to stand by, since although thanks to you I did eventually read and enjoy it, I did appreciate the film for many years before ever setting eyes on the book.

And Don Cardi, I will talk about various aspects of GFIII whenever I feel like it because unlike the book situation, I have seen enough of that movie to know that it's a big joke.

(Not horrible mind you...just a big joke.)



Apple