3 registered members (Trojan, 2 invisible),
468
guests, and 24
spiders. |
Key:
Admin,
Global Mod,
Mod
|
|
Forums21
Topics42,930
Posts1,073,139
Members10,349
|
Most Online1,100 Jun 10th, 2024
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: olivant]
#611484
08/18/11 11:42 AM
08/18/11 11:42 AM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
Because an enemy of the family could approach him again in the future, just as Roth did. Because he was so jealous of Michael, he might betray his brother again, especially if someone promised Fredo that it would be something good for him and good for the Family. I keep asking, how? Michael exiled him from the Family. He was only allowed cursory contact with his mother. He was banned from the Corleone hotels. It took Connie's entreaty to get Michael to give Fredo even a brief respite bewteen their mother's death and Fredo's murder. So, what is it that someone expected to obtain from Fredo in exchange for a promise of something good? There are a number of possibilities. For example, he could expose the inner workings of the compound or he could provide information to Micheal's enemies - such as the fact that Senator Gearry 'belongs' to him. Not to mention how much he already knows about Micheal, factors that could be used against him, such as the murders he has committed etc. Its ridiculous to assert that theres absolutely no way Fredo could have hurt Micheal if he was allowed to live. Where theres a will, theres a way.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Immobiliare]
#611488
08/18/11 01:16 PM
08/18/11 01:16 PM
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029 Texas
olivant
|
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,029
Texas
|
For example, he could expose the inner workings of the compound or he could provide information to Micheal's enemies - such as the fact that Senator Gearry 'belongs' to him. Not to mention how much he already knows about Micheal, factors that could be used against him, such as the murders he has committed etc.
1) Of course, the inner workings of the compound could not possibly have been know to the two assassins who attempted to murder Michael nor to the person or persons who murdered the two assassins. Oh no. 2) Senator Geary's belonging to anyone was moot long before Fredo's murder. 3) Michael only committed two murders both of which were judicially disposed of long ago. Fredo was not privy to any murders Michael ordered nor would such knowledge, had he possessed it, placed Michael in any legal jeopardy as the attorney's on the Board will so confirm.
Last edited by olivant; 08/18/11 01:17 PM.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: olivant]
#611492
08/18/11 01:40 PM
08/18/11 01:40 PM
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624 AZ
Turnbull
|
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,624
AZ
|
I keep asking, how? Michael exiled him from the Family. He was only allowed cursory contact with his mother. He was banned from the Corleone hotels. Before the betrayal, Fredo obviously wasn't a part of the business, and knew nothing about the Cuba deal. But Johnny Ola told him about the Cuba deal, and found in Fredo a willing partner--because Fredo had a grudge against Michael. Banished or not, he still had a grudge, which would have deepened with banishment. Anyone who knew him would know that--and might find out something of value from Fredo because he'd be willing to seek revenge--again.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: olivant]
#611494
08/18/11 01:43 PM
08/18/11 01:43 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
For example, he could expose the inner workings of the compound or he could provide information to Micheal's enemies - such as the fact that Senator Gearry 'belongs' to him. Not to mention how much he already knows about Micheal, factors that could be used against him, such as the murders he has committed etc.
1) Of course, the inner workings of the compound could not possibly have been know to the two assassins who attempted to murder Michael nor to the person or persons who murdered the two assassins. Oh no. 2) Senator Geary's belonging to anyone was moot long before Fredo's murder. 3) Michael only committed two murders both of which were judicially disposed of long ago. Fredo was not privy to any murders Michael ordered nor would such knowledge, had he possessed it, placed Michael in any legal jeopardy as the attorney's on the Board will so confirm. Fredo knew of the murder of Johnny Ola and the initial attempt on Roth's life. He also knew of the incident with took place in his brothel between Gearry, Neri and the prostitute. Fredo was Micheals brother, he had inside knowledge of his operations and knew what his weak points were. I may not be able to point to specific instances in which Fredo could use these attributes, but to dismiss them completely is ignorant. Even as a worse case scenario, Fredo could have himself attempted to take Micheals's life, angered at being banished from the family. Considering the resentment he felt towards Micheal, this situation is quite plausible.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: mustachepete]
#611495
08/18/11 01:46 PM
08/18/11 01:46 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
Michael had several options: banishment to some very remote place, imprisonment within the compound, or (my personal favorite) institutionalization.
The head of the Family was (as Michael told Kay) "responsible for other people." As Vito's son and Michael's brother, Fredo was one of the people Michael was responsible for. For Michael to place Fredo in a position where Fredo could be manipulated was Michael's failure, and Michael should have taken responsibility for it. What would that entail exactly in your opinion?
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Turnbull]
#611496
08/18/11 01:53 PM
08/18/11 01:53 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
I keep asking, how? Michael exiled him from the Family. He was only allowed cursory contact with his mother. He was banned from the Corleone hotels. Before the betrayal, Fredo obviously wasn't a part of the business, and knew nothing about the Cuba deal. But Johnny Ola told him about the Cuba deal, and found in Fredo a willing partner--because Fredo had a grudge against Michael. Banished or not, he still had a grudge, which would have deepened with banishment. Anyone who knew him would know that--and might find out something of value from Fredo because he'd be willing to seek revenge--again. Exactly. People seem to take it as a given that if Fredo was banished, Micheal would never see him again. In reality, Fredo's resentment toward Micheal would have probably worsened and could have manifested itself in any number of ways. Having someone that hates you that much and knows that much about you is obviously a precarious situation.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Immobiliare]
#611498
08/18/11 02:06 PM
08/18/11 02:06 PM
|
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,469 No. Virginia
mustachepete
Special
|
Special
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,469
No. Virginia
|
What would that entail exactly in your opinion?
As I hinted above, I think the best solution would have been to have Fredo institutionalized. Stick him in the room of someone who had died, and make him a non-person.
Last edited by mustachepete; 08/18/11 02:07 PM.
"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Immobiliare]
#611500
08/18/11 02:13 PM
08/18/11 02:13 PM
|
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773 Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
|
For example, he could expose the inner workings of the compound or he could provide information to Micheal's enemies - such as the fact that Senator Gearry 'belongs' to him. Not to mention how much he already knows about Micheal, factors that could be used against him, such as the murders he has committed etc.
1) Of course, the inner workings of the compound could not possibly have been know to the two assassins who attempted to murder Michael nor to the person or persons who murdered the two assassins. Oh no. 2) Senator Geary's belonging to anyone was moot long before Fredo's murder. 3) Michael only committed two murders both of which were judicially disposed of long ago. Fredo was not privy to any murders Michael ordered nor would such knowledge, had he possessed it, placed Michael in any legal jeopardy as the attorney's on the Board will so confirm. Fredo knew of the murder of Johnny Ola and the initial attempt on Roth's life. He also knew of the incident with took place in his brothel between Gearry, Neri and the prostitute. Fredo was Micheals brother, he had inside knowledge of his operations and knew what his weak points were. I may not be able to point to specific instances in which Fredo could use these attributes, but to dismiss them completely is ignorant. Even as a worse case scenario, Fredo could have himself attempted to take Micheals's life, angered at being banished from the family. Considering the resentment he felt towards Micheal, this situation is quite plausible. Again, Michael's own actions regarding Fredo indicate that he was not concerned about any of those things. Do you really think that if Michael were concerned about Fredo implicating him in a murder or other malfeasance would he have allowed him to roam free? Or that, if Michael felt Fredo could use knowledge of the inner workings of the compound against him, he would allow Fredo access to the compound? Sure, we can hypothesize about potential threats posed by Fredo but it is clear that Michael, in the period of his deepest paranoia, did not view Fredo as a threat. So I don't, either.
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Turnbull]
#611508
08/18/11 02:45 PM
08/18/11 02:45 PM
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
|
Anyone who knew him would know that--and might find out something of value from Fredo because he'd be willing to seek revenge--again. I really don't think Fredo was that stupid to betray Michael again. I think he was too relieved that Mike had forgiven him and that he was allowed to return. Fredo would always be in the position to do damage to Michael, but I think he wouldn't have tried it again. Especially if Michael kept him out of the family business.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: The Last Woltz]
#611509
08/18/11 02:47 PM
08/18/11 02:47 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
RE the last woltz
Well made points but I disagree with the main premise.
For me, Micheals ordering of Fredo's murder indicated that he did see Fredo as a threat, or atleast a potential threat, particularly after the boat-house scene. Other's believe it indicated no more than revenge on Micheals part. In my opinion, both 'reasons' justified the eventual outcome.
As for your other questions, after the boat house scene, perhaps Micheal allowed Fredo to roam free and gave him access to the compound to lure him into a false sense of security, prevent him from running away, knowing that he would eventually be killed.
Before the boat house scene, he may have not been aware of the extent of the resentment that Fredo felt and thus wasn't waware of the 'threat' that Fredo may have posed.
Its all a matter of opinion at the end of the day and makes for an interesting discussion.
Last edited by Immobiliare; 08/18/11 02:51 PM.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Immobiliare]
#611510
08/18/11 02:52 PM
08/18/11 02:52 PM
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
|
Fredo knew of the murder of Johnny Ola and the initial attempt on Roth's life. He knew Ola was dead/murdered, but he couldn't pin it down on Michael unless Michael had admitted to him that he had given that order. He also knew of the incident with took place in his brothel between Gearry, Neri and the prostitute. Which was his brothel and his responsibility. We don't know if Michael himself had actually informed Fredo of that plan.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#611514
08/18/11 02:58 PM
08/18/11 02:58 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
Anyone who knew him would know that--and might find out something of value from Fredo because he'd be willing to seek revenge--again. I really don't think Fredo was that stupid to betray Michael again. I think he was too relieved that Mike had forgiven him and that he was allowed to return. Fredo would always be in the position to do damage to Michael, but I think he wouldn't have tried it again. Especially if Michael kept him out of the family business. Disagree. Fredo seemed quite unrepentent about his reasons for betraying Micheal. Being banished from the family could easily have worsened the resenment he already felt for Micheal and this could have manifested itself in another betrayal. This time he would have much less to lose also.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#611517
08/18/11 03:06 PM
08/18/11 03:06 PM
|
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
Immobiliare
OP
Made Member
|
OP
Made Member
Joined: Jul 2011
Posts: 172
|
Fredo knew of the murder of Johnny Ola and the initial attempt on Roth's life. He knew Ola was dead/murdered, but he couldn't pin it down on Michael unless Michael had admitted to him that he had given that order. He also knew of the incident with took place in his brothel between Gearry, Neri and the prostitute. Which was his brothel and his responsibility. We don't know if Michael himself had actually informed Fredo of that plan. Micheal admitted to him that he 'had already made his move' and that 'Hymann Roth will never see the new year'.
Last edited by Immobiliare; 08/18/11 03:11 PM.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Turnbull]
#612541
08/27/11 12:53 PM
08/27/11 12:53 PM
|
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
Sonny_Black
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: May 2010
Posts: 3,568
|
Another angle:
Do you think Tom knew that when Michael "forgave" Fredo, he was putting him in a trap and preparing to have him killed? No, I think this was something between Michael and Neri only. If so, do you think he should have warned Fredo? Not if he wanted to meet the same fate as Fredo.
"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: olivant]
#616738
10/07/11 10:39 AM
10/07/11 10:39 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831 New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
|
Fredo would always be a danger Many posts about this controversy are replete with statements such as yours. However, noone ever states what the danger is that Fredo would always be? He could have rallied other members of the family against Michael: Tom, Connie, the children, other non-kin members of the family like Al Neri (who appeared to have a soft spot for Fredo the way he reacted when Mike gave him the look at the funeral)...Fredo could have also snitched out Mike to the press or the authorities. I don't know any way that Fredo wouldn't have always been a liability to Mike had he spared his life. Michael may have been able to sequester him from a lot of the family business, but there would always be ways to harm Michael again -- especially if Fredo was still bitter about being cut off from the family business, which you have to believe he always would be, deep down.
Last edited by DeathByClotheshanger; 10/07/11 10:43 AM.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: JCrusher]
#616739
10/07/11 10:41 AM
10/07/11 10:41 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831 New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
|
The way I've seen it. Mike whacked the whole heads of the five families in one shot. I doubt too many people wanted to fuck with him after that. Roth was a jewish gangster and used his brain more than muscle but he failed. Killing fredo wasn't gonna make Mike look weak. I think new york didn't want to mess with mike since they knew how crazy he was. fredo could have been treated like shit and kept a close eye on but no reason to kill him Disagree. Even Vito's enemies thought he was slippin', and obviously Roth didn't fear Michael even after he whacked the heads of the families as well as Moe Green, Roth's friend. No matter how ruthless they were in the past, if someone appears to be weak at a certain time, they can get got.
|
|
|
Re: If Fredo came clean...
[Re: Turnbull]
#616740
10/07/11 10:42 AM
10/07/11 10:42 AM
|
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831 New Market, MD
DeathByClotheshanger
Underboss
|
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2004
Posts: 831
New Market, MD
|
Another angle:
Do you think Tom knew that when Michael "forgave" Fredo, he was putting him in a trap and preparing to have him killed? If so, do you think he should have warned Fredo? Probably not because he knew that Michael would have viewed it as a betrayal and then Mike would have had to whack Tom. Maybe this would have been touched upon in III if Duvall had come back. We'll never know.
|
|
|
|