my two cents

- i believe that fredo did not know it was gonna be a hit

- i believe that the question of who killed the assasins is a major plot hole and thus unanswerable

- i believe that the intention of the film was to show that michael's brother betrayed michael, although
i believe that fredo could not possibly have killed the assasins

i've accepted this.

BUT

if i HAD to pick somone, using the few facts avaiable and by processing those facts locigally´and by means of exclusion, the only person who could have done it, had some degree of motivation, and who possibly had some opportunity, would be rocco

this does not mean i believe he was involved

rocco dying in the finale would to some degree support this school of thought, but i doubt whether this was the intention of the film maker

GP: I don't understand what you mean by "Neri RIP Position." What do you think I said about Neri that you disagree with?
It is absolutely true that Neri was Michael's choice--Michael brought him along. Rocco was Clemenza's choice. Being Michael's choice would be a tremendous advantage. I don't think Michael believed Rocco was disloyal--but I believe he thought Neri was more valuable, in part because Neri was his man from day one. As we saw: Hagen was Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. That fact hurt Hagen after Vito died, although I maintain that Michael was right about Tom not being a "wartime consigliere."

Also...there were TWO dead assasins and I think I remember it being discussed here before that one man alone could not possibly have killed both and then dragged the bodies to the drainage ditch where they were found. And even if one man COULD do it...that man would NOT be Fredo Corleone.

So, while it was Fredo's initial betrayal (whatever that was) that may have gotten the wheels turning...it's possible that Roth/Ola were able to get a team of men to infiltrate the compound, hide out, somehow get those drapes open (another plot hole because again, neither Kay nor any woman alive would have ever gotten into bed without noticing they were open if every other night they were closed) and wait for Michael to appear at the window.

When it became clear that the hit failed half the team might have had to eliminate the other half in order to MAKE SURE they were not captured alive and persuaded to provide information as Michael had wanted.

Fredo may have been the one that betrayed Michael...but he couldn't do everything, or even HALF of what happens on that night. What he did was to enable it all to happen.

How? Along with who killed the assasins, another plot hole and simply unanswerable.

And if you REALLY want to talk about plot holes, another is the amount of time Michael stands at the window before the shots were finally fired. Let's face it, he could've been easily mowed down before Kay even uttered a word about the drapes being open...and even for several seconds after. Pure luck that he happens to DROP just as the shots begin.

And Rocco figures into all of this in no way whatsoever.

Don Arvido is right. The intention of the film (or at least THIS segment) was to set up the later revelation that Michael was betrayed by his own brother. Let's just enjoy the film at that level.

Apple

This might put me in the firing line, but o well...

I remember reading a post here a while ago about the last chapter or chapters in the godfather book and how it insinuated a certain future for the characters. The post also mentioned how the movie sequels did not 100 percent comply with this future, i.e. ffc took certail liberties with the plot of the sequels that did not necessarily comply with the intention of the last chapter of the book.

I will try to find the post i'm referring to and post a link to it to back this up.

i also remember hearing in the commentary of the gf dvd collection that puzo did not agree with ffc's wish to have fredo whacked.

please correct me if i am wrong.

if this is true, could we not assume that ffc went off on a bit of a tangent, and devised plots that were not 100 percent compliant with the original intent of the authors original work.

and if he DID go off on a tangent in the 'modern' segment of gf2, could we not assume that he took some liberties with the characters that were not the intention of the author. just look at gf3 - a b---rd son that sonny never had, and which michael knew intimately for only a short time, becomes don of the most powerful crime organisation in america.

Maybe ffc took too many liberties with the plot to tell a story he found compelling without realising that he actually made a bit of a mess with it. Especially, as somebody stated, when considering that these movies were not intended to be re-re-reanalysed in such detail as we are able to do today with the precence of videos, dvds and the web

I do love gf2, albeit not as much as gf1 which i consider near perfect, but there are obvious holes which we have all discussed in detail. remember that the old segment of gf2 was present in the original work, but the new wasn't.

maybe ffc just took to many liberties. maybe he should have allowed puzo to devise the sequels on his own without ffc imposing his own wishes.

just a thought...

turnbull;

the r.i.p. for neri is referring to richard bright - neri's death last month -2/18/06 in new york as he was hit by a bus on a street corner and dragged by the bus for a short distance before the bus stopped. you said that neri pushed past rocco. i feel that he was handpicked for his job because mike felt he was better suited and more dispensible than neir.

I am not 100% sure about this and Turnbull is causing me to reexamine my position on this. But I can't get past how angry Michael is and appears to me to be directing his anger towards Frankie when he gives his "in my house, in my bedroom where my wife sleeps" speech. Also, I do not consider Frankie's turning states evidence at the Senate investigation as Frankie plotting. He was arrested and was being coerced to testify against Michael. He was VERY reluctantly testifying and I think he would have defended himself a little bit when Tom Hagen and he were having their cigar conversation. Tom, "When a plot against the emperor fails..." Frankie makes no reply to Tom's accusation.

Also, consider this...wouldn't it be a perfect scenario for Roth if he could actually get Frank Pentangeli to hit Michael for him not just make it look that way. Michael was already expecting trouble from Frankie.

I can't get past how angry Michael is and appears to me to be directing his anger towards Frankie when he gives his "in my house, in my bedroom where my wife sleeps" speech.[/QB][/QUOTE]

I think that Michael is engaged in a bit of method acting there, for the benefit of the ears outside the door. He wants everyone to think that Frankie is a suspect.

I may be 100% wrong about this, but I think the Lampone/Neri speculation rises far above the level of the significance of each character in Godfather 2. They get a lot of screen time, but it's mostly just standing around while others are conferring. I think Coppolla kept the actors/characters around for continuity with the first movie, but that if he had wanted major players here, he would have created major characters played by name actors.

PLAW, your scenario is:

All 4 hitmen were hiding in the woods. Two of them killed the other 2 and carried the dead bodies to the ditch and left them there.

My comments:

FCC spent 3 weeks at the Tahoe filming site scoping it out.
Tahoe is NOT thickly forested. It's sparse with NO bushes, tall grass, etc. The pine branches are high off the ground. Tahoe woods are not easy to hide in.

Michael's compound is completely walled with a very high stone wall that goes down to the waterline.. There are 24- hour guards and guard dogs and Michael's boat with Rocco's men patrolling the shoreline.

1. What did your 2 live hitmen and 2 dead bodies hide behind in the woods?

2. How did your shooters get those dead bodies to the drainage ditch? Did they drag them over the wall? Or did they swim with them to the drainage pipe...all this with Rocco's men patrolling the shore with Michael's boat? BTW Lake Tahoe is cold...50-degree water. Sounds travel a long way over water especially at night.

Your scenario:

Then they opened fire and escaped through the pipe in the ditch that led to the lake where a boat was waiting for them.

3. Before they were able to fire at Michael, your shooters had placed the dead bodies in the ditch and just waited around for Kay to go to bed, Fredo to open the drapes, and Fredo to signal them that Michael is going into his bedroom. They might have had to wait for a long time or they might have gotten lucky, who knows? So they waited around without being detected by Rocco's men, right?


4. So the boat just sat there waiting for the shooters who were waiting for Michael to go to bed...waiting for the shooters to take their shot at Michael...waiting for the shooters to make their getaway...all while not being detected by Rocco's patrol guard and Rocco's guards and dogs?

Your scenario:

When Rocco and his men found the dead guys in the ditch, they stopped looking for anyone else.

1. If Rocco and a couple of his men did not kill those 2 hitmen...why would they STOP the search? Wouldn't they figure that there were a couple of killers that killed and deposited those 2 dead bodies in the ditch?

I'll give my scenario for this part after you answer my questions.

By the way, PLAW...as soon as you revert to plot flaws--you've lost this argument because I have a scenario that makes more sense.

I can't help but wonder why you refer to it as an argument. Up to now, I thought it was a discussion or at the most, a 'debate'.

The only one 'losing' is you, Ceasar's Dealer.

But keep going...you're certainly proving to be an entertaining fellow while you're here.

Apple

If all you say about the compound is true, Caesar, then where did the hitmen hide if not in the woods, and what was their supposed escape plan?

You ask.....If Rocco and a couple of his men did not kill those 2 hitmen...why would they STOP the search? Wouldn't they figure that there were a couple of killers that killed and deposited those 2 dead bodies in the ditch?Actually that's an interesting point, and a valid one.

So why didn't Michael insist that they keep looking?

His big concern was that the killer be found "ALIVE, Rocco, ALIVE!"

Theres is no scenario that accounts for the death of the hitmen that is not without flaws.

Not yours, not mine, not any of the several others that have been proposed over the years.

And it's exactly that that makes the hitmen's death and the failure of the entire assassination plot to hang together logically a flaw in the film.

Another big problem I have accepting your scenario, DLAW, is that once the shooters were in place waiting to get their shot at Michael, so many variables could occur to make the hit a no-go and the worst case scenario (from Roth's standpoint) would be for the shooters to be discovered and captured alive, leaving a trail right back to Roth. I don't think Roth would have taken that unnecessary risk...not when he had Cuba and a much better shot at Michael. BUT if Roth had an inside guy at Michael's home--the risk would be worth it.

If you would CONSIDER the POSSIBILITY that Rocco was one of Michael's betrayers, the scenario could work something like this:

On hit day 2 of Rocco's men take the boat to pick up Johnny Ola for his meeting with Michael. Johnny brings the 2 hitmen (along with 2 of his other men that we see coming to the meeting.) The hitmen are dropped off on the shore out of sight of the compound. At the agreed upon time they can make their way to the tunnel on the property without worry of discovery because Rocco is controlling the scene and his men and the dogs.

They could wait until Rocco chose an appropriate opportunity to have Michael hit. The hit could have occurred any time that night...any opportunity that Rocco chose. The chosen opportunity arose when Kay went to bed first.
Rocco opened the curtains. When Rocco saw that his boss was going to bed, he gave the shooters a heads-up and they were in place ready to fire. Two of Rocco's men garrotted the shooters after the hit.

One little detail I found very interesting. To back up just a little...when Johnny gets off at Michael's dock he is met by Rocco. Sometime on their walk to the house Johnny gives Rocco 1 orange...not a box of oranges like you might bring to a friend...not in a box or bag...1 unwrapped orange. Rocco walks into the house with Johnny and his men. Rocco is looking very intently at Johnny with a "question mark" look. Michael sees the look on his face, takes the orange out of Rocco's hand and says, "What's this?" Rocco replies, "An orange--from Miami."

On another thread, Cristina gave us an incredible nugget... that oranges=death in the Godfather movies. Another interesting detail...Michael is sucking on an orange when he gives Rocco his Roth hit orders...the scene where Rocco says, "Difficult...not impossible."

FFC throwing that orange in there really made me wonder...this movie does not have very many (if any) trivial details. I got to wondering AND speculating what that orange meant.

Why didn't Michael keep Rocco looking for the killers of the hitmen? The hit night conversation that Michael has with Tom backs up my belief that Michael had already figured out that Rocco was the ch*nk in his fortress. Otherwise, why did Michael say, "They're dead already...killed by somebody close to us."
I do not believe Michael was talking about Fredo in this conversation. I've stated in other posts that I don't believe Fredo had the guts to kill those shooters and he would not have been able to control the scenario as I've outlined it. I believe Fredo aided Roth with information. I will elaborate later on that. Right now, I would like you to consider my scenario for hit night.

I find a huge flaw in your theory here.

If Michael had figured out that Rocco was the traiter when he was having that conversation with Tom, then Michael would have taken Rocco out! Michael would not have allowed Rocco to sit in on important meetings and especially the decision to take out Roth.

We would have seen Rocco wacked had Michael suspected that early in the movie that Rocco was the traitor.

We saw him take his own brother out for God's sake. If your theory held any water, we would have surely seen him take out Rocco.

Your theory has too many flaws.

IMO Plaw's theory is much more reasonable.


Don Cardi

I'm not going to stand for being dumped on any more. If I get any more of this...I'm outta here.

Stop taking things to heart CD.

The other day you were the one coming off with a bit of an attitude and you were a bit rude with some of the things that you said. And we all forgot about it and moved on. So why don't you do the same now.

I would like to see what you have to say in reply to my last post.


Don Cardi

My thoery, his theory....more holes, fewer holes.....

It doesn't matter, because all they are are theories, and that is the flaw in the movie:

The failure to tell us who killed the assassins, and when left to our own devices to figure it out, the absence of a plausible explanation.

The above was posted by Caesar's Dealer, not Don Cardi.

I'm reposting this so it's more readable.

Why did Michael allow Rocco to sit in on important meetings including the Roth take-out meeting? Rocco didn't know that Michael suspected him of being a traitor. Michael was practicing his father's principle of "keep your friends close; but your enemies closer." He did that with Roth, Fredo, and Rocco. Besides, Roth knew in Cuba that Michael was trying to kill him (Buschetta attempt). That would have been no news to Roth.

Why didn't we see Michael whack Rocco? We did. Michael reserved a special Sicilian punishment for Rocco by sending him on a suicide mission to kill Roth. Also, Rocco didn't necessarily think that it was going to be a suicide mission...dangerous, yes; but not necessarily suicidal. It isn't a usual practice for the FBI to shoot at a fleeing suspect in a crowded airport. That FBI agent was probably on the Corleone payroll.

My theory has too many flaws? If you see any more "flaws" with my Rocco scenario let me know. I'd be happy to answer them.

AND it would be really great if Don Cardi and PLAW could answer the flaws I found in PLAWS scenario.

Michael was practicing his father's principle, huh?

And Rocco not knowing that Michael suspected him only strengthens my arguement even more.

So he would allow someone ( Rocco ) to sit in on meetings after knwoing that this man was behind a nearly successful attempt on his life? According to your thinking, Michael, fully knowing that Rocco was behind a plot to overthrow the Don, would allow Rocco to sit in and be a part of really deep inside information that he could turn around and use against Michael and the famiy? Michael, who trusted no one, would intentionally arm Rocco with more ammunition to give to Roth just to keep his friends close but his enemies closer?

That would be like Michael allowing Carlo to sit in his meetings while he was plotting to kill the heads of the families in GFI.

I don't think so CD. While I respect your right to interpret that whole situation as you see it, your theory just gets weaker and weaker each time you try to promote it.


Don Cardi

Wait.... I have a new theory.

Four hitmen arrived in a refrigerated caterer's truck.

Two of them were dead already, and had been immediately frozen after they were killed.

The two living hit men dumped them in the ditch when no one was looking, and then hid in the woods while the dead guys were thawing out during the party.

Then, after opening fire, they escaped through the drainage ditch to the lake where a boat was witing for them.

Wait....here's a better one. Seriously, this time.

The two hitmen were either terminally ill already, promised a huge sum of money by Roth, or like Rocco who many believe went on a suicide mission of his own later, were attempting to redeem themselves in the eyes of their boss, Roth (maybe they were Moe Greene's bodyguards who were asleep at the switch when he was killed).

They entered the compound in a delivery truck for the party with the garrott marks already on their necks.

Then they hid in the woods until the drapes were opened and they opened fire.

Imediately after the shooting, the two hitmen then swallowed a quick-acting poison and jumped into the ditch, where they died moments later.

When they were found, no one suspected that they had poisoned themselves, because after seeing the marks on their neck it was assumed that they had been strangled.

I don't think there are any holes in that one, are there?

PLAW, I have a feeling you're a pretty good poker player.

I want to start filling in some holes in my scenario based on some of the posts I've read. And I'm going to do some speculating. Obviously, it would take an incredible amount of nerve to be a good hitman. I know Rocco had that nerve. Imagine the guts it took to hit Roth. He walked into that crowded airport in Miami BY HIMSELF and stood in a group of FBI guys and police waiting to get a shot at Roth. He seems to be the type of bodyguard who wouldn't blow his cool too easily.

I was always a little puzzled when I watched the hit night scene where Rocco begs Michael to go back in the house. He says something like, "Michael, go back in the house PLEASE,"
and he seems almost frantic. It could be he is desperate that Michael get back into the house where he's safe. Or with my scenario, I might interpret him to be frantic after a failed hit on his boss and he did not want Michael to come out of the house and see his men killing the shooters, placing the bodies.

Fredo's wife screamed, "I see men right outside my window."
I'm not too clear whether Deanna is talking about the bodies in the ditch or if the shooters actually fired from outside her window. But Rocco could have positioned the shooters there to shift suspicion to Fredo.

When Rocco is showing Michael the bodies he (BTW it is Rocco's voice) says, "They must be out of New York." I think he does that to shift blame to Pentangeli. And I wonder how he could have known that they were out of New York if he wasn't in on the plot.

The orange that Johnny Ola brought all the way from Miami to give to Rocco could have been a signal to Rocco that the hit was a "go" and the shooters were there. Otherwise the orange scene is meaningless.

Don Cardi, that was a good point you made about Rocco sitting in on important family discussions...if he was a traitor, he might give info away to enemies. But I don't believe Rocco knew that Michael knew he was a traitor...Michael was "keeping his enemy close"...letting Rocco think everything was OK.

Michael didn't have to allow Rocco to hear anything he didn't want him to hear. We do see Michael telling Rocco and Al to leave the room while he asks Tom about Fredo in the Desert Inn scene (right after Michael's return from Cuba).

By the way, would someone explain to me WHY Michael asks Rocco and Neri to leave the room at the DI while he asks Tom about Fredo? That's always puzzled me.

Personal family stuff. Why should Michael, at that point, allow an "outsider" to learn that his own brother had possibly betrayed him? That is personal family info that at the moment should not be common knowledge for non-family members to know. Remember that Tom is a brother to Mike and Fredo.

CD, not for nothing, but you insist that Michael was keeping his friends close but his enemies closer in regards to Rocco. First you say that I've brought up a good point about Rocco, and then you contradict yourself and say that Michael was keeping his friends...enemies....etc. etc.


Again, you are entitled to your theory and your opinion, but so far you have not shown me anything substantial, in the plot of the movie, that would convince me that you may be right about Rocco.

BTW, the people that Diana said that she saw outside her window could have easily been the Corleone people. Why do you assume that she was talking about the hitmen?


Don Cardi

Just found and read this thread, skimming over some posts so I don't know if this was mentioned, but the dead assassins weren't shot, they had their throats slit. That is an up close and personal kill -- something that Fredo DEFINITELY is unable to do.

I also doubt it is Rocco, although I am not against such theories. One thing I can think of is that Michael sent Rocco on the suicide mission to kill Roth at the airport, so Mike may have had some feelings about Rocco being in on it, but if Rocco WAS in on it, why would he agree to go on the suicide mission in the first place?

I think the answer is that Fredo knew something was going to take place, but purposely ignored it the way that Barry Bonds said he "didn't ask what he was being injected with." Fredo supplied the details, still not thinking about the end result. That is something he could do... and in his "dumb" way of thinking, he could always distance himself from Michael's would be murder.

So a faceless assassin hired by Roth and Ola, who we never see again in the film, dispatched the assassins in the water by the tunnel and gets away.

I think Fredo could have killed the shooters as the killers were found dead outside Deanna's room and Deanna is Fredo's wife so he would of had easy access to outside that room , and he was extremely jealous of Michael so he could of killed them out of pure jealousy or rage that he was overlooked and Michael took over the family

jus my thoughts

Fredo didn't have it in him to kill anybody...especially in the lightning quick, cold blooded, way by which those assasins had to have been murdered. He would had to have then dragged & dumped both of them into the ditch which even if close by would require a bit of physical strength and effort...and somehow returned to the house without ever being spotted.

Nope. Not Fredo territory.

If he was telling the truth about not having known about the 'hit' (which I believe he was)...then in the time following the shooting he would certainly not have been jealousy or rage toward Michael. Rather, it would be panic and fear in the realization that he may have made made possible the hit on his brother in his own home.

Apple

think of this though , if the shooters were found dead outside his room mayb they went to his room to tell him they failed the hit and he killed them outside his own window and just left them there