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That Kind Of Order
#586599
11/25/10 01:38 AM
11/25/10 01:38 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
OP
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
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In Part III, Michael is furious that, while he was incapacitated in the hospital, Vincent killed Joey Zasa. He tells Vincent: "Don't ever, again, give that kind of order, not while I'm alive." This statement raises two questions.
First, does it mean that although Michael is still the head of the Corleone family (as he points out when he says "I command this family!"), he has already planned to step down and have Vincent be his successor by this time?
Second, what exactly does Michael mean by "that kind of order"? Does he mean that the hit on Zasa was done irresponsibly, given that it involved a gun battle in the middle of a large crowd that could have easily resulted in innocent bystanders being killed or injured? Or did he mean killing someone, period? If the latter, how can Michael be serious? Assuming he wanted Vincent to be his successor, did he really expect him to be the first Mafia don in history to commit to a "no killing" policy? What if, when Vincent was the don, someone tried and almost succeeded in killing him the way Sollozzo did with Vito and Roth did with Michael? What would Michael expect Vincent to do, send the person to bed without dessert?
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: Lilo]
#586619
11/25/10 09:09 AM
11/25/10 09:09 AM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
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I don't think it's any deeper than Michael making the point that he's still the boss, not Vincent, Neri or baby sis, and that as boss he and he alone decides if or when someone needs to leave the planet. I see what you're saying. One reason the quote struck me, and led to the questions I asked, was that Vincent didn't appear to actually give any "order." Not only did he get Connie and Neri's approval first, but he didn't seem to actually have anyone under his command--after all, up until shortly before he had worked for Joey Zasa. Perhaps the other gunmen were people he had hired to help him with the assassination. Or perhaps he had formed his own faction when he broke with Zasa--like the Gallo brothers in the 60s--and now did have people under his direct command.
Last edited by VitoC; 11/25/10 09:13 AM.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: VitoC]
#586629
11/25/10 12:46 PM
11/25/10 12:46 PM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,721
AZ
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I agree with Lilo: it was Michael the perpetual controller being true to his character. Notice that he didn't give Vincent full rein until after Don Tomassino was killed. Only then did he realize that he was aging, infirm and vulnerable--and had to put someone younger, more ruthless, in charge.
One think intrigues me in the scene you cited, Vito. Michael spits out, "That is not...what I...WANTED!." Well, what did he want? Just before he had his diabetic stroke, he seemed to be cooking up a Vito Corleone-type submissive charade ("Get a message to Zasa...I respect what he did...[the old order changeth])..." In the same scene he said, "Our true enemy has yet to show himself." My guess is that, at that instant, he might have been planning to get closer to Zasa to learn who his true enemy was--just as Vito learned after the Don's Convention that it was Barzini all along.
But then, during the stroke, he seems to realize it was Altobello all along. So, he no longer needed Zasa to lead him to the unknown true enemy.
Ok, Vincent et al violated his almighty control obsession by ordering Zasa's assassination. That explains "never give an order like that..." But it still doesn't reveal what Michael "wanted," having realized that Altobello was the enemy.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: JCrusher]
#586649
11/25/10 05:21 PM
11/25/10 05:21 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
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I think in Part 3 Michael was trying to amend all the extremely evil deeds he committed when he was younger. He was mad at Vincent for responding like that but he realized that he did the same thing when enemies were trying to get to him. One of the things i didnt like about Part 3 is the extreme change to Mike's character. i understnad people changed as they get older and they regret things but Mike went from being a complete psychopath to a big softie This is getting off the subject, but I wanted to respond to what you've said here. I didn't like how they changed Michael in Part III either, but I don't think it's at all fair to call him a psychopath. I've discussed this in previous threads on this board. And with one or two possible exceptions, I also don't think it's fair to say that the things he did (at least that we see him do in the movie) were evil. One can argue that many of the activities of organized crime (of which he was a leader, obviously) were and are evil, but that's a separate issue. His most controversial action, without doubt, was the killing of Fredo, and it's been widely debated (on this board and elsewhere) whether it was justified. But it's very disingenuous, to say the least, to yell in horror: "He killed his own brother!" without noting that that brother was probably part of a conspiracy to kill him. Michael hardly woke up one morning and said "Ya know what? I'm tired of Fredo. I'm gonna kill him." Additionally, although it's not certain he ordered this, it's possible a different method of blackmailing Senator Geary could have been found that didn't involve killing a "civilian" (the prostitute Geary was with). But in general, I don't think the characterization of Michael as some sort of psychopathic monster fits with what he does in parts I and II. If FFC and Puzo really wanted to portray him that way, they should have come up with a different story than what they produced.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: VitoC]
#586663
11/26/10 02:50 AM
11/26/10 02:50 AM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
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I think in Part 3 Michael was trying to amend all the extremely evil deeds he committed when he was younger. He was mad at Vincent for responding like that but he realized that he did the same thing when enemies were trying to get to him. One of the things i didnt like about Part 3 is the extreme change to Mike's character. i understnad people changed as they get older and they regret things but Mike went from being a complete psychopath to a big softie This is getting off the subject, but I wanted to respond to what you've said here. I didn't like how they changed Michael in Part III either, but I don't think it's at all fair to call him a psychopath. I've discussed this in previous threads on this board. And with one or two possible exceptions, I also don't think it's fair to say that the things he did (at least that we see him do in the movie) were evil. One can argue that many of the activities of organized crime (of which he was a leader, obviously) were and are evil, but that's a separate issue. His most controversial action, without doubt, was the killing of Fredo, and it's been widely debated (on this board and elsewhere) whether it was justified. But it's very disingenuous, to say the least, to yell in horror: "He killed his own brother!" without noting that that brother was probably part of a conspiracy to kill him. Michael hardly woke up one morning and said "Ya know what? I'm tired of Fredo. I'm gonna kill him." Additionally, although it's not certain he ordered this, it's possible a different method of blackmailing Senator Geary could have been found that didn't involve killing a "civilian" (the prostitute Geary was with). But in general, I don't think the characterization of Michael as some sort of psychopathic monster fits with what he does in parts I and II. If FFC and Puzo really wanted to portray him that way, they should have come up with a different story than what they produced. Ya I know you seem to have a big probelm when i say Mike is evil. Well man I dont know what to tell you. This is my favorite movie and i like the character of Michael because he is so complex but what do you want me to say he is a sweetheart LOL. I mean u say oh the only thing he did was kill his own brother. But thats kind of a big deal. Also what evidence is there to suggest Fredo wanted Michael dead? Its pretty clear that all Fredo wanted was to be seen as important. You remember when he told Old that they lied to him. he was pissed that they tried to kill his brother plus he was scared what Mike would do to him. Look Fredo is a lot of things weak, dumb, and he witheld information but he is not a cold blooded killer that is just a fact. I mean I read a lot of mob books and stuff and even thoguh I'm interested in thst stuff I still see these guys as sick fucks. Mike used to be a good guy but he went over to the dark side. I know he only did it for his father but once he got that power and wealth he was seduced and lost his soul in the process which meant he would kill anything whether man or woman for one goal to make money. But thats why I like this story so much because its about how a good natured guy turns into a EVIL man ultimately
Last edited by JCrusher; 11/26/10 02:53 AM.
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: olivant]
#586674
11/26/10 12:28 PM
11/26/10 12:28 PM
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
VitoC
OP
Capo
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OP
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Joined: Nov 2009
Posts: 466
Stewartstown, PA
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Crusher, as a newcomer to the Board you should realize that some Board members are equivicators. They are more than ready to excuse someone's behavior for any number of reasons. I find comments like these condescending. People on this board should be able to have legitimate differences of opinion. That's what a site like this is for to begin with.
Let me tell ya somethin my kraut mick friend!
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: Sonny_Black]
#586675
11/26/10 01:33 PM
11/26/10 01:33 PM
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Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
JCrusher
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2010
Posts: 3,103
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[quote=JCrusher]Mike used to be a good guy but he went over to the dark side. I know he only did it for his father but once he got that power and wealth he was seduced and lost his soul in the process which meant he would kill anything whether man or woman for one goal to make money. But thats why I like this story so much because its about how a good natured guy turns into a EVIL man ultimately But that doesn't make him a psychopath. In case you don't know, people are born psychopath, they don't just turn into one. [/quote I know that how about I rephrase and just say the guy did horrible things?
Last edited by JCrusher; 11/26/10 02:21 PM.
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: olivant]
#586815
11/29/10 10:03 AM
11/29/10 10:03 AM
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Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
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Well, TB, Michael didn't know who his truly enemy was. He had a strategy to find out who it was. He viewed the murdering of Zasa as interfering with that strategy. Also, he was looking for the light at the end of the tunnel where he would finally be extricated from life in the underworld according to his timetable and in his own way using his knowledge and judgement. Again, Zasa's murder disrupted that way and pulled him back in. It was unartful. It was a street reaction that any thug would think of. It was not the way Michael did things. I agree with this opinion, for both reasons Olivant states. If we're going to look closely at Michael's words, one interesting this was his phrase "that kind of order." When Vincent first comes on tne scene, he is told to just watch and learn. But Michael seems to be indicating that Vincent can give other kinds of orders. Does that mean that Michael has been gradually giving Vincent some real power? That he was really grooming him to take over even back then? Or was it just sloppy writing?
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: Lilo]
#586899
11/30/10 02:59 PM
11/30/10 02:59 PM
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa
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Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
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I don't think it's any deeper than Michael making the point that he's still the boss, not Vincent, Neri or baby sis, and that as boss he and he alone decides if or when someone needs to leave the planet. Exactly. Even anti-GFIIIer like me picked up on THAT. It appears that Michael did not care for the idea that a hit was ordered on ANYONE, for ANY REASON, while he was incapacitated. Didn't even matter if he would've made the very same decisioin. It was a violation of his authority, that is why he said 'right or wrong'.
A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.
- THOMAS JEFFERSON
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Re: That Kind Of Order
[Re: AppleOnYa]
#586916
11/30/10 04:11 PM
11/30/10 04:11 PM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,032
Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,032
Texas
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I don't think it's any deeper than Michael making the point that he's still the boss, not Vincent, Neri or baby sis, and that as boss he and he alone decides if or when someone needs to leave the planet. Exactly. Even anti-GFIIIer like me picked up on THAT. It appears that Michael did not care for the idea that a hit was ordered on ANYONE, for ANY REASON, while he was incapacitated. Didn't even matter if he would've made the very same decisioin. It was a violation of his authority, that is why he said 'right or wrong'. For sure. As he told Vincent: "Now Zasa has to send you a message back." Mike knows full well how fast and quickly can get rolling down the track and then become unstoppable. Hits are not a function of oneupmanship. They should be deliberate efforts to achieve a specific objective that fits in with an overall strategy. That was Vito's genius; that was Mike's genius.
"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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