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Michael, Cicci--and Roth #575690
06/17/10 02:41 PM
06/17/10 02:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,544
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,544
AZ
Suppose Michael hadn’t located Pentangeli’s brother, or was otherwise unable to stop him from testifying. What would have happened to him?

A Congressional investigative subcommittee isn’t a prosecutor or court of law. But any testimony given under oath can be turned over to a prosecutor if the subcommittee thinks it contains something actionable. Had Frankie testified against Michael, Questadt would have recommended to the US Attorney for the District of Columbia (federal prosecutor) that Michael be indicted on five counts of perjury.

In order to bring in a perjury conviction, the prosecutor needs a primary witness (Pentangeli) and either a corroborating witness or corroborating evidence to back up the primary’s testimony. I’m guessing that his ace in the hole would be Willie Cicci. Wittingly or not, Cicci was the mainspring of the trap the subcommittee laid for Michael. Since Michael didn’t know that Pentangeli was waiting in the wings, Cicci’s testimony that he never got a direct order from Michael emboldened him to lie under oath. I’ll be the subcommittee deliberately didn’t press Cicci too hard for details—his purpose was to make Michael relax.

But the prosecutor would press Cicci hard for more details, and Cicci—whose life was in the hands of the Feds—would cooperate. He might have been pressed to recall the famous line to Tessio—“the boss says for you to go ahead”—as proof to link Michael to Tessio’s murder, as well as the others committed that day. He might have pushed Cicci to “think harder” about any contact he had with Michael on criminal matters. Law is a competitive business. When a case goes to trial, the figure of merit isn’t innocence or guilt, or even right or wrong—it’s about winning and losing. And, once a case goes to trial, it’s in the jury’s hands, not in law books. Guilt is in the eye of the juror.

Michael wasn’t without resources. He might have been acquitted; or, if convicted, won an appeal. But, look to the hidden hand of Hyman Roth. His objective in using Questadt and the subcommittee wasn’t necessarily to put Michael in prison (although they would have liked that); it was to destroy his “legitimate” reputation. Even if acquitted by the jury or on appeal, Michael would always be tarred and feathered in the public mind. The Nevada Gaming Commission would have put him in the “Black Book,” and his casino holdings would have been put under new ownership that had no connection to the Corleones. Guess who?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Turnbull] #575691
06/17/10 03:13 PM
06/17/10 03:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Cicci was probably the witness who could corroborate Frankie's
testimone. Without taking the fifth Cicci had already testified that he was a "button" and explained what it meant, and he jked that the family had a lot of "buffas," one of whom would have been Frankie. To get a conviction all they had to do was get Frankie to say Mike ordered people killed, and he passed the word to Cicci who would corroborate, no doubt under a plea agreement.

The perjury counts would be brought in the United States District Court in D.C., which is well known as favorble to defendants. Moreover, many juries do not trust witnesses who have flipped to get immunity, and Michael and his legal team could easily say the murderous Frankie and his friend Cicci
had turned on him. Michael had witnesses to Frankies demanding that he wanted the Rosato brothers dead, and Michael telling him to make the peace.

As far as the casinos, Michael owned very little stock in them, and I believe they were owned by straw men but controlled by the Corleones.

As for Roth, he'd be in a pickle. Obviously he would never testify that he ordered the hit on Frankie, and by the time of the Senate hearings Michael already knew that Fredo had betrayed him to Roth.

My guess is if Michael got acquitted, or more likely had a hung jury Frankie and Cicci would have mysterious accidents before there could be a new trial.

I think he would have kept the casinos, but his hoped for squeaky clean image would have suffered, but the bright side is that had his reputation been tarnished, there could have not been GF III.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: dontomasso] #575733
06/18/10 12:04 PM
06/18/10 12:04 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
I think Michael would have put all his political power to the test and after the cameras stopped the perjury inquiry would have been dropped. I don't think it would have gotten to the federal prosecutor or if it did he would have had some "legitimate" reason for not pursuing it.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Lilo] #575734
06/18/10 12:05 PM
06/18/10 12:05 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
But also regardless of what happened or how much it cost Michael would have dealt with Frankie.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Lilo] #575743
06/18/10 01:06 PM
06/18/10 01:06 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Also by this point he knew the comittee's counsel belonged to Roth. This information would have been leaked out and could have headed off a trial. No self righteous congress person would want the word to get out that their own lawyer was controlled by Hyman Roth, and the whole thing may have died right there.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Turnbull] #577659
07/18/10 09:32 PM
07/18/10 09:32 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
willycicci1 Offline
Wiseguy
willycicci1  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
what exactly did tom say to frank pentangeli's brother after the court hearing?

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: willycicci1] #577661
07/18/10 09:59 PM
07/18/10 09:59 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
Sicilian Babe  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
He said that the family's honor was intact, "sta posto", which means "as it should be" or "everything's fine".


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Sicilian Babe] #577688
07/19/10 06:06 AM
07/19/10 06:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
Underboss
Danito  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Did they threaten Frankie's brother? Or did they just tell him that he was about to break omerta? And was Frankie's brother's family part of the Sicilian mafia?

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Danito] #577689
07/19/10 06:42 AM
07/19/10 06:42 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
I always thought that the threat was implied and ambiguous.
Perhaps they told Frankie's brother that Frankie was under the gun and needed to see family support. The brother might not have necessarily believed that of course but it didn't really matter.

And of course Frankie seeing his brother there in Michael's presence would have assumed the worse.


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Lilo] #577690
07/19/10 08:34 AM
07/19/10 08:34 AM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
willycicci1 Offline
Wiseguy
willycicci1  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 10
if franks brother was an honorable man,as tom hagan implied at thew hearing,then it would go against the mafia code to kill him to spite frank,although with mike backed into a corner as he was i would not have put it past him

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: willycicci1] #577702
07/19/10 11:39 AM
07/19/10 11:39 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
Sicilian Babe  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
For years, I thought that the brother was brought there as a threat to Frankie - "If you testify against me, your brother dies." However, I've come to believe that the brother was there to remind Frankie of the oath they had taken. That's why Tom Hagen (in perfect Sicilian, btw, so kudos to Duvall) confirms that the family's honor is intact.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Sicilian Babe] #577722
07/19/10 04:36 PM
07/19/10 04:36 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
Originally Posted By: Sicilian Babe
For years, I thought that the brother was brought there as a threat to Frankie - "If you testify against me, your brother dies." However, I've come to believe that the brother was there to remind Frankie of the oath they had taken. That's why Tom Hagen (in perfect Sicilian, btw, so kudos to Duvall) confirms that the family's honor is intact.


I don't think it had anything to do with reminding Frankie of anything except: you talk, your brother dies.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: olivant] #577892
07/22/10 10:34 AM
07/22/10 10:34 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
Underboss
Danito  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Original geschrieben von: olivant
Original geschrieben von: Sicilian Babe
For years, I thought that the brother was brought there as a threat to Frankie - "If you testify against me, your brother dies." However, I've come to believe that the brother was there to remind Frankie of the oath they had taken. That's why Tom Hagen (in perfect Sicilian, btw, so kudos to Duvall) confirms that the family's honor is intact.


I don't think it had anything to do with reminding Frankie of anything except: you talk, your brother dies.

But with Michael in prison, would the Corleones (=Neri+Hagen) have killed Franke's brother? And if you're right, wouldn't he be a little more scared? At the hearing he looked a little angry.

Re: Michael, Cicci--and Roth [Re: Danito] #577932
07/22/10 09:23 PM
07/22/10 09:23 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,544
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,544
AZ
I believe it was both: to remind Frankie of his "honor," and to imply death to his brother.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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