When Michael gives Fredo the kiss of death at the Havana New Year's Eve ball, do you think that is when he decided right then and there that he was going to have Fredo killed?

On the one hand, if he wanted Fredo to leave Cuba with him (since, after all, he needed information from him and would no doubt have the question "Why?" on his mind), why did he frighten him away with that kiss? This doesn't seem like the Michael who played his cards close to his chest and didn't let others know what his next move would be.

Was the kiss more of a symbolic gesture? ("We're dead as brothers..." although notably, during the revolutionary chaos, he tells Fredo "you're still my brother"). Was it impulsive, the strongest way he could think of to express his hurt and anger?

Back in Tahoe, when Michael gives Al Neri the ominous words that he doesn't want anything to happen to Fredo while Mama is alive, it sounds possible that Michael only then (or near then) made up his mind to have Fredo killed. Is it possible that the kiss had a different meaning to Michael (and perhaps a different meaning altogether to Fredo) at the time?

I don't think Michael planned to kill his brother on that night, but only because their mother was still alive. Hence, the whole scene of I don't want anything to happen to him before my mother goes. Also, I would want to question fredo of his involvement with Hyman Roth.

That kiss of death stuff is almost purely romantic. Why warn your enemy? The legend surrounding it grew from the fact that to fool your intended victim you would greet him with affection which could include kissing. That would presumably throw him off.

No, I think that Michael ruminated about his brother's betrayal and decided to kill him after his talk with him.

Fredo was a dead man the moment that Michael realized he betrayed him (at the Superman show). Only question: when?

As Cristina notes, of course the kiss of death would warn Fredo off, when in fact Michael wanted him to return to America, if only so Michael could pump him for info on the extent of the betrayal. Why did he kiss him? Dramatic license: it made for far more drama than, say, the two of them casually sashaying out of the palace and onto the plane.
Yes, Michael waited until their mother died. But Fredo's fate was sealed in Havana. Michael made the "You're nothing to me now" speech only when he was satisfied that Fredo'd told him everything, and had nothing more to give.

I agree with Turnbull. I believe that at that very moment he knew that he was going to kill Fredo.

Michael suspected Fredo before that night, and I am sure that Michael told himself that if it was Fredo, then he would have to go. I'm sure that Michael played everything out in his mind from the moment that he suspected that it may have been Fredo. He had to because when Fredo makes that remark, Micahel turns around to his bodyguard and gives him a confrimation look saying that it was now time for him to go and take out Ola and Roth. So that alone tells me that Michael had suspected Fredo and planned out, in advance, what would be done once the truth came out.

But as a brother, there had to be a part of him, deep down inside, that hoped that it was not Fredo.

And on that night, when Fredo tips his hand with the Johnny Ola remark, look closely at Michael's face. He's so sick! The moment of truth had finally arrived and it was confirmed right from the horse's mouth, Fredo's! And there had to be a part of Michael that could not believe that it was true, but yet he really knew it was. That's why Michael gets that sickening look across his face, sort of an " I knew it all along, but can't believe that it is really true " look. "Now I must face the truth and kill my own brother."

And I think that the kiss was, as Cristina said, an impulsive one. One that instantly expressed his hurt and anger.

I think his anger was more of an anger out of hurt, and not a raging anger.

Of course later on Michael tried to get Fredo to come with him in the car to escape Cuba. But I think that it was Michael's way of trying to keep Fredo close to him, so to assure himself that Fredo would do no further damage.


Don Cardi

Fredo was a dead man right after he made the statement. Pacino did a great job with that scene, and you could see what was going on. Michael felt sick after hearing Fredo, because he knew what would need to happen.

Yes, DC, Michael did suspect Fredo, but I don't think Fredo was his top suspect, which may account for part of the look of pain at the Superman show. I believe Michael literally when he said to Tom, "Right now you're the only one I can trust completely," which didn't rule out Fredo. And when he said, "Fredo? He's got a good heart, but he's weak and stupid, and this is life and death," I took it to mean that while Fredo might not have intended the shooting, he was dumb enough to fall in with conspirators who did.
For the record: I think Fredo opened the drapes. If he did, it's hard to believe that he did it without intending harm to Michael. The vehemence with which he expresses his pent-up resentment at Michael in the boathouse shows the depth of his feelings against his brother.

I agree with some of what has been said. I agree that Michael suspected Fredo, which is evident during the banana dacquiri scene. And I agree that Michael was sickened by the confirmation of the betrayal at the Superman show. I also agree that the kiss was an emotional gesture made from anger.

However, I don't agree that Fredo's fate was sealed in Havana. I think that Michael felt that Fredo had been led astray by Roth and his people. It was not until Michael heard Fredo's little tirade in the boathouse that he decided to kill Fredo. When Fredo ranted on an on, revealing the depths of his frustration and resentment, it became clear to Michael that Fredo would be a constant threat to the family, and would have to be eliminated.

I think Fredo was a dead man as soon as Micheal knew, you could see the stone cold look he got in his eyes, that was more chilling then the kiss of death. As for the kiss, i think that was merely a goodbye to Fredo, to say that when Mama dies, you die to

I agree with Turnbull and DC, except that I am always troubled by the efforts Michael went to to save Fredo...first in Havana when he tries to coax him into the car "You'rse still my brother," and then later when he tells Tom to get workd to Fredo that everything is ok, to come back to the family compound. Is this just a piece of Sicilian cunning?

Those were all excellent posts. In my opinion that kiss, despite its being non-romantic and between two same sex participants, is the BEST MOVIE KISS in the HISTORY of CINEMA. It is also one of the most powerful scenes in the trilogy. I love asking people what they thought of it.

It hits me like whiplash whenever I watch it... and I have to wonder if John Cazale got a touch of whiplash when Pacino shook him by the neck like that .

And how additionally eerie that this kiss occurs at the stroke of midnight. I'd like to know if it's historically accurate that Batista did abandon office and flee the presidential palace on New Year's Eve. Does anyone know? (Calling Turnbull , although anyone in the know can reply .)

Well thank you for giving me permission to reply.

Yes it is historically accurate Cristina.

On New Years Eve of 1958 Batista fled Cuba and Fidel Castro really did take over on Jan 1st. 1959.


Don Cardi

Heh heh heh.

Well, I've fallen into the habit that whenever I pose a question of history or politics or law (or cars ), I expect Turnbull to reply. So I told myself that next time I pose such a question, I better invite anyone to reply, lest I start insulting members of this board who might get the impression that I don't think they're smart enough to know the answers .

I knew all along you would know the answer to that one, Don Cardi .

... but I had to mention Turnbull's name so he wouldn't feel left out .

Cristina, I posted a story over in The Organized Crime Real Life thread, that was published several years ago about the Meyer Lansky ( Roth ) / Batista relationship.

Here is a link if you are interested.
http://www.gangsterbb.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=9&t=001137


Don Cardi

I'm on my way over there ...

Actually, Batista had only rented the room 'till midnight; Castro had rented it for the next day which technically started just after midnight. The Palace people had screwed up and Batista's people didn't catch it.

About Christina's rendering that the kiss was the best in cinematic history. You might catch the one that Tom Selleck lays on Kevin Kline in "In & Out".

I still say that Mike had not committed to Fredo's murder until after his talk with him in the boat house. The kiss was indeed dramatic license and was probably a concession to the legend of the Mafia kiss of death.

Olivant, I actually did see the movie In and Out several years ago, and I do remember the kiss between Tom Selleck and Kevin Kline . Oh my goodness, that kiss seemed about 3 minutes long. And like the Michael-Fredo kiss, I didn't see that one coming either -- not by a long shot .

The big difference for me, though, is that I can rewind the Michael-Fredo scene and watch it repeatedly, it was so full of drama. But as for the Selleck-Kline kiss, I can't imagine wanting to see that again! For me, it takes more than length to make a great screen kiss: it takes emotion, dialogue, atmosphere, etc. The GF2 kiss had all those qualities in spades. Selleck and Kline? not even close ... but they were going for a whole different effect, aiming for the funny bone .



Now to the next item:

Actually, Batista had only rented the room 'till midnight; Castro had rented it for the next day which technically started just after midnight. The Palace people had screwed up and Batista's people didn't catch it.

Olivant, is that true or are you pulling my leg? Where did you read that? I thought the New Year's Eve gala was held at the Presidential Palace. Did Batista rent out the ballroom of his own palace? And furthermore, did he rent it out to the enemy who sought to overthrow him?

Now I am going by what was in the movie, so in real life it could well have been just as you say. Truth is stranger than fiction ... but I still wonder if you're playing a joke on me .

There is also something else I've been curious to know about the Michael-Fredo kiss of death scene.

I'm wondering if Coppola wrote it into the script the way it plays on film, or if he envisioned it that way. Or did the two actors improvise and that's how they came up with the forceful impression we film viewers have today?

Did Coppola intend for Michael to kiss Fredo on the mouth? Or did he imagine that Michael would give his brother a kiss on each cheek? Has anyone read or heard anything about this that might satisfy my curiosity?

I'm not up on my mafia/Sicilian lore, but I just don't recall the legendary "kiss of death" being given on the mouth. I thought it was just a kiss on each cheek. However, I must admit that I don't recall where I got that impression; it's not like I've seen many "kisses of death" between men in the movies. Does anyone know more about this?

Tried to do a Google search, CW, but I only came up with stuff about a movie named Kiss of Death with David Caruso, the story about the girl who recently died after kissing her boyfriend (she had a peanut allergy and he had just eaten peanut butter), an Italian Thrash band named Kiss of Death and a website that lists the best kisses on film (yes, the Michael/Fredo kiss of death made the list). I could not find anything that talked about the history of the kiss of death.

However, I think it goes back to Judas' betrayal of Jesus. Doesn't Judas kiss Jesus to let the Roman soldiers know which one He is? Not sure, but I think so, and I think that's why it is sometimes called the Judas kiss. Not sure, but that is sticking in the back of my mind.

Here you go ladies :


KISS OF DEATH - "unwelcome support from an unpopular source, occasionally engineered by the opposition.The phrase is derived from the kiss of Judas and the betrayal of Christ. It is also described as coming from a gangland custom called 'omerta,' said to have begun in Sicily. 'In the mobs,' wrote Russell Baker, 'a kiss from the boss is tantamount to arriving at the office one morning and finding your rug gone.'"

From "Safire's New Political Dictionary" by William Safire (Random House, New York, 1993).


Don Cardi

Christina:

Batista would do anything for a buck - even renting out a Palace room to his enemy.

Yeah, I get that "ew" feeling when I watch the kiss in In&Out. It did go on a long time.

As I opined somewhere else, I think the kiss of death thing has been overdone. It is traditional in many cultures to kiss people on the cheek - on the mouth I'm not so sure of even when it means death. But I'll bet it might have been improvised.

I owe you an apology, olivant. I thought you were fooling me when you posted that. I learn something new here every day .
At least Fredo and Michael kept their mouths closed.

It just goes to show you that, when it comes to a movie kiss, sometimes less is more. The Fredo-Michael kiss gave me goosebumps; that's why it's so good.
Yes, I sure would like to know how much of it (if any) the actors improvised and how much was FFC's vision. If I could ask FFC a question, that would be it (well, that and who killed the Tahoe gunmen).

Thanks for the info, olivant. Much appreciated .

Well if the "Kiss of Death" is supposed to be an official Mafia custom, wouldn't it be a little unwise of Michael "I don't know anything about la cosa nostra" Corleone to be giving out lethal smooches in a crowded public place?

But let's remember that this took place in Cuba, during a different era, where even those around them at that moment would not really know that it was a kiss of death. Before the Valachi testimony, the government, and the public for that matter, really did not know much about these mafioso symbols. And many would just chalk it off as one brother giving another a kiss for the New Year.


Don Cardi

It was midnight on New Year's. Everyone was kissing. I don't think that it was such a thing, especially since nobody else could hear what Michael said to his brother when he kissed him.