why did mike want tom hagen not to be in part of the family business anymore as a consiglere?

well, because tom wasn't a war time consiglieri...and the move they were gonna make was gonna be rough. mike wanted someone who would be able to advise him properly in war tactics.

Besides as Michael says, "Who's a better consligere than my father?" Vito is perfect consligere. Tom Hagen just simply wasn't sicilian. He didn't have what it takes to be a war time consligere. He's very cunning and invalueable to the Corleone family as the lawyer.

Plus, Michael was planning to make the family "legitimate" after the move to Nevada. He needed Tom to have distance from the muscle end of the family in order to function effectively as the family's lawyer in negotiations for casino licenses, etc.
Remember, too, that Tom was Vito's choice for a consigliere, not Michael's. As we saw later, Michael was his own consigliere.

Plus let's remember that Tom apparently hadn't served Santino to the Family's satisfaction.

"...You just do what I tell you to do! Goddamn it! If I had a wartime consiglieri - a Sicilian - I wouldn't be in this shape! Pop had Genco - look what I got!!..."

Sonny also ended up dead, due to his own temper and Barzini's clever trap. Something that just might have been averted had a 'wartime consiglieri' been in place at the time.

Apple

Although I agree that Tom should've seen through the charade of Connie's beatings, I always thought that it was rather unfair that Tom got the blame for Sonny's death. Could Sonny really have been stopped? If you remember, the day that he was killed, Tom chased him out into the driveway and tried to get him to come back into the house. It was only due to Tom that Sonny even had bodyguards TRYING to catch him. I think that once Sonny's temper was out of control, there was no way to talk him out of what he was determined to do.

I agree with everything you wrote, SB--it was unfair. But the unfairness itself underscored the upside-down world of the Mob. In the novel, Puzo makes a big point of the virtue of "Sicilian cunning"--he says that "no non-Sicilian could ever hope to match a Sicilian in cunning." Tom, as a non-Sicilian and a lawyer by training, did not expect that Carlo would thirst for revenge after his beating and humiliation by Sonny, even though (or perhaps because ) it would be obvious to a non-Sicilian that he'd be found out ultimately. Tom evidently wrote him off as a no-account. So did Sonny--but the consigliere's job was to look for stuff Sonny didn't see.
Genco might have looked for that revenge factor, and might have told Sonny, "Hey, keep your eye on Carlo: he's gonna come lookin' for revenge sooner or later." That warning probably wouldn't have stopped Sonny the hothead from jumping in his car, but it might have.

What Turnbull said.

In other words, while Tom could not possibly have prevented Sonny's murder on the Causeway once he got Connie's call and sped away...a true wartime consiglieri just might have foreseen and prevented the trap from being set.

Apple

I don't think that Sonny possessed the Sicilian cunning either. I agree that had Tom been a better wartime consigliere, he may have foresaw Carlo's eventual attempt at retribution, but if Sonny had been a better Don, he would have never put himself in a situation to be harmed by Carlo's revenge. Remember the flashback scene from Part II in which young Vito sees the thugs cut Fanucci's throat and later finds outs that they let Fanucci live. He replies, "In my town, if you attack a man, you had better finish him off," or something to that effect. That lesson was obviously one of the many that Sonny never learned from his father. Sonny set himself up to be killed with the way he handled Connie's first beating from Carlo. Had he been in Sonny's position, Vito would have either killed Carlo or made sure he taught him his lesson in a less public manner.

Its interesting. I always thought the main function of Mike moving Tom out was Mike trying to gain Carlo's trust so he could manipulate him and control him as he wanted to.

It seems that if Carlo felt more connected to the family, more indebted to Mike, he would have no suspicion of staying behind when Connie and Kay went to Nevada, and then Mike could succesfully kill him.

Also, he may have felt a tinge of guilt about setting up Sonny, so he would then be more inclined to tell Mike who helped him.

So in the end, as I see it, Mike moved Tom out and promoted Carlo just for appearances, and then later, in GFII, right after the assassination attempt, it seems like Mike is partly apoligizing to Tom for this whole incident.

When he says, "Yeah -- you felt it was because of some lack of trust of confidence -- but it's -- it's, because I admire you and I love you that I kept things secret from you. That's why at his moment you're the only one I completely trust," to me, he is spefically citing this incident, where Tom was moved out to his complete bewilderment.

Anyone else see what I'm talking about?

MMTH, that is exactly the way I always interpreted the "You're Out" scene. Mike may well have had real intentions to no longer have a consigliere, but the purpose of the scene was to show how Mike was setting up Carlo by making him believe he was getting the larger role in the family he had always desired. Especially the way that Vito immediately responds by saying he advised Michael to make the decision. I don't think Vito had any real intentions for Mike to remove Tom, but once Mike went solo he enjoyed the freedom of not having anyone but himself advise him what to and who to kill. As he became more and more cold-hearted throughout the second movie, you can see how his lack of respect for Tom grows.

We will never know what made Genco a 'wartime consigliere' because in the flashback scenes he shows nothing that reveals that he would become a 'wartime consigliere'.

Vito's family was in a good position as it was, business as usual, with the politicians in his pocket and running the unions. Tom as a lawyer was probably invaluable as a go between. Then Sollozzo came along with the drugs and upset the entire balance of power. Business suffered, as Tom counseled Sonny, as he coninued his war that was more on a personal level than a business one. (Though one can understand his desire to avenge) Sonny rebuffed Tom, and exposed himself several times before meeting his demise.

If it is true that Tom didn't see the several moves where the Corleones were outflanked, neither did the Corleones or the capos, who were Sicillian. Vito is the one who sent Luca on a suicide mission, Vito let his guard down after the Solozzo meeting. Sonny brought Carlo into the family, but he brought Tom in as well. Vito counseled against taking action against Carlo after it became obvious that he was abusing Connie, Sonny was the one who insulted Carlo at the table before he got into the warime consigliere argument with Tom.

And then he endured Michael's increasing disrespect.

But Vito treated him like a son. The scene where Tom tells Vito that Sonny is dead he is embraced by Vito.

I like Tom's character. But is it the director's intentthat we sympathize with a person who is amoral, if not immoral in his activities?

It is true that if you had to pick the most moral and most human among them, youd have to go with Tom. Vito maybe I could understand, but I personally would have to pick Tom.

The dead hooker in Fredo's brothel might not agree.

None of them were moral, including Tom. He had the virtue of being unquestionably loyal at all times--but he was loyal to evildoers. That's why I believe the overall theme of the GF Trilogy is, "Crime doesn't pay."

It seems almost as if FFC made intentional moves to keep Tom seeming fairly moral and human. Notice...

- the GFII subplot of Tom having an affair with Sandra was cut out
- Tom tries to convince Sonny to avoid bloodshed in GFI
- Tom's death is alluded to as being caused naturally, instead of being killed by Mike which would imply wrongdoing or deceit on Tom's part
- the look Tom gives Tessio as Cicci and others lead him away, how he actually seems reluctant to have him killed
- Tom often displays sadness or confusion in situations where others in the family would display anger and irrationality, like when he is pushed out by Mike, or when Sonny is killed, or after Vito is shot
- Tom shows compassion for Kay when she's looking for Michael in GFI, whereas Sonny might have just blown her off
- Tom treats Mike with a kind of brotherly love in PtI, whereas Sonny seems to treat him like a little nothing
- At the end of PtII, in the flashback, when Mike reveals his joining of the Marine Corps, Sonny becomes angry, Tom tries to understnad Mike

the list could go on. I realize its easy to put Tom in a good light when youre comparing him to the hotheaded Sonny or the inhumane Michael, but thats what I'm trying to say, that he is the most moral and most human among them.

but I guess I have to agree with you Turnbull, when you say crime doesnt pay, because in the end, Tom ends up dead, just like all the rest of them. Whether he died happy or not, we dont know.

There is an early scene in the Godfather at Connie's wedding after Tom Hagen introduces himself to Kay. Mike tells her that he thinks Tom is going to be the consigliere, when he explains what that means, he goes out of his way to say that Tom is a great lawyer BUT not a Sicilian.