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You're Gonna Be The Don #503992
08/12/08 11:11 AM
08/12/08 11:11 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline OP
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
This is what Michael tells Tom before he heads off to Miami.
He never tells Rocco or Neri, but it appears they fell into line and took Orders from Tom (i.e. Neri's "help" in setting up Geary). Michael seems to know instantly that it was Roth who tried to kill him, because he goes directly to Roth after the attempt, to "keep his enemies closer." But did he tell Tom he suspected Roth? Not in the script he didn't, and that's a huge mistake because if Tom had known it was Roth maybe he would have paid closer attention to the "death" of Pentangeli, through his sources in the NYPD. This would have allowed Don Tom to do something either to get word to Pentangeli to keep his mouth shut, or to start to prepare for the inevitable hearings that Pentangeli's confession would cause. Once again, Michael's secretiveness is a big part of his undoing. Moreover why did he have to go to the trouble of telling Tom he was going to be "the Don." He never really was anything more than an acting Don while Michael went to Miami, New York and Havana.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: dontomasso] #503995
08/12/08 11:46 AM
08/12/08 11:46 AM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite Offline
Capo
FrankWhite  Offline
Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
Oh... DonT... this was just a tactic by Mike to people skill Tom and make him feel the acceptance that he knew Tom always desired from him (hence his speech about being close to Sonny and not Mike growing up and being considered a brother). Mike played to this to make things go as smooth as possible. I always get the feeling that Michael never really respects Tom as much as Sonny or definately Vito does.


"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: FrankWhite] #503998
08/12/08 12:17 PM
08/12/08 12:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
Michael is a manipulator, plain and simple. Manipulators have differing levels of skill. Michael's appears to have been among the best. He tells Tom what he thinks Tom needs to hear so that Tom will do his bidding. He reads people pretty well also. He reads Tom as wanting his approval which Tom believes he gets by his taking Tom into his confidence.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: olivant] #504013
08/12/08 01:31 PM
08/12/08 01:31 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite Offline
Capo
FrankWhite  Offline
Capo
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
couldn't have said it any better myself oliv ;-)


"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: FrankWhite] #504032
08/12/08 02:26 PM
08/12/08 02:26 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
Michael the Manipulator played Tom like a violin. The fact is, he needed Tom (for once) because (for once) he told the truth: "Right now, you're the only one I can completely trust." The reason he didn't tell Tom that he already knew Roth was behind the attack was that he'd kept Tom out of all the previous Roth negotiations--and even at that dire point, he wasn't going to let him in. If Tom had known that Michael blamed Roth, why, he'd actually be capable of making some decisions on his own--like (as dt said) looking closer into Pentangeli's alleged "death." Heaven forbit, he might even have been more useful to Michael--a real consigliere. rolleyes


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Turnbull] #504271
08/13/08 04:00 PM
08/13/08 04:00 PM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Lucchese Offline
.90 Caliber
Lucchese  Offline
.90 Caliber
Made Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Heaven forbit, he might even have been more useful to Michael--a real consigliere. rolleyes


Do you view this as Tom's fault, or Michael's? I view it as Michael's, as he kept Tom in the dark on too many things for him to be a "real consigliere." His hands were bound.


"The only wealth in this world is children. More than all the money and power on Earth." --Michael Corleone
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Lucchese] #504288
08/13/08 06:18 PM
08/13/08 06:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
The fault was mainly Michael's. An obsessive controller, he had to do everything by and for himself--and that included his taking over the role of his own consigliere.

To be fair: Michael wasn't wrong when he told Tom (in GF) that "you're not a wartime consigliere." He wasn't. Tom admitted that to himself (in the novel) after Sonny was killed. And, as we've discussed, Michael needed a totally legitimate Tom, unsullied by war, to front for the family in legitimate Vegas. But I really don't understand why he kept Tom out of the Roth negotiations while letting Rocco and Neri into them.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Turnbull] #504339
08/14/08 12:04 AM
08/14/08 12:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Lucchese Offline
.90 Caliber
Lucchese  Offline
.90 Caliber
Made Member
Joined: Feb 2008
Posts: 135
Texas
Keeping Tom out of the Roth situation kept intact that which you have already stated: Tom stays clean. However, it was this arrogance and desire to be a Lone Ranger that I believe caused him to fail in taking Roth out in Cuba. I personally feel that if he includes Tom in that whole ordeal, Roth doesn't "see the New Year" as Michael originally planned. His arrogance jumped up and bit him in the ass right there.


"The only wealth in this world is children. More than all the money and power on Earth." --Michael Corleone
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Lucchese] #512999
10/01/08 10:42 PM
10/01/08 10:42 PM
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 13
Michigan
tom_hagen_fan Offline
Wiseguy
tom_hagen_fan  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Aug 2004
Posts: 13
Michigan
I agree Tom should have been involved more. But like Turnbull already said, he did need to be clean for the Family. Also, I think Michael did have a pretty good idea it was Roth, but maybe not 100%. Even if he did, he was not sure who betrayed him, and spreading information at that point would not be smart.

Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: tom_hagen_fan] #513002
10/01/08 10:44 PM
10/01/08 10:44 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi Offline
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Santino Brasi  Offline
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
You would, wouldn't you Tom_Hagen_Fan


tongue





He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!"

So what’s the labyrinth?

That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Santino Brasi] #513367
10/03/08 04:38 PM
10/03/08 04:38 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
That scene was perfectly played but it always bothered me just a bit. Perhaps it's because I'm the oldest in my family but why should Tom have been so desperate that Michael accept him personally as a brother?

I mean Tom was what, eight or ten years older than Michael?
I can see Tom giving Michael all the professional courtesy (and more) due to a boss but why would he have lost too much sleep over whether his adopted kid brother really liked him or not?

It just seemed a little too puppy-dog like for a cool customer like Tom.

Maybe he still blamed himself (and thought Michael did as well) for Sonny's demise???


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Lilo] #513387
10/03/08 06:14 PM
10/03/08 06:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,528
AZ
A guess is that Tom, who came from a broken family and had no family at all when Sonny found him, really valued and wanted to be part of the family, not just consigliere or lawyer. And with Sonny gone, and Michael so cold to him even early on (attest the Dreaded Corleone Stare in the flashback scene at the end of II), Tom was feeling insecure.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Turnbull] #513403
10/03/08 08:25 PM
10/03/08 08:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline
Underboss
Danito  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Maybe Tom was really hungry for family love. Just because he didn't have a family.
By the way, we never get to know anything about the relationship between Mamma Corleone and Tom. This could be worth a new thread...

Re: You're Gonna Be The Don [Re: Danito] #514074
10/06/08 08:04 PM
10/06/08 08:04 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,022
Texas
Mike used Tom just like he used everyone else. To me, that's it. Otherwise, Tom meant nothing to him.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."

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