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Trust in Clemenza #491493
06/05/08 04:54 AM
06/05/08 04:54 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
Underboss
Danito  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Clemenza got very much involved in the killings at the end of GF: He shoots Cuneo or Stracci, he strangles Carlo. In the book he gives Neri the gun to shoot Barzini. So he probably had his part in the planning.
Wasn't it a little dangerous for Michael to have Clemenza involved like that? After all, Tessio and Clemenza were friends who were seperated at a certain time by Vito but after the fishtank episode they could have become allies. Even more after Vitos death.
How could Michael know that Tessio acted alone?
How could Michael believe that Clemenza would be more loyal to him than to Tessio ("for old times sake")?
Even if Clemenza didn't know about Tessio's treachery he could have turned traitor after he got to know what Michael was aout to do.

Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Danito] #491494
06/05/08 05:04 AM
06/05/08 05:04 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
Santino Brasi Offline
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Santino Brasi  Offline
The Don's Official Sooth Sayer
Underboss
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Posts: 1,876
Palm Bay, Florida
Clemenza was too stupid to turn traitor





He - (Simón Bolívar) - was shaken by the overwhelming revelation that the headlong race between his misfortunes and his dreams was at that moment reaching the finishing line. The rest was darkness. "Damn it," He sighed. "How will I ever get out of this labyrinth!"

So what’s the labyrinth?

That’s the mystery isn’t it? Is the labyrinth living or dying? Which is he trying to escape - the world, or, the end of it?
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Santino Brasi] #491504
06/05/08 09:37 AM
06/05/08 09:37 AM
Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,190
Brazil
Tony Mosrite Offline
Underboss
Tony Mosrite  Offline
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Joined: Sep 2003
Posts: 2,190
Brazil
maybe Coppola and Puzo wanted us to think that Michael was smart for making the right choice and trust Clemenza. you don't know how the relation between all those guys went over the years.


"I'm just a humble motherfucker with a big ass dick"
The Bunk
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Tony Mosrite] #491515
06/05/08 11:12 AM
06/05/08 11:12 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Texas
First of all, a capo would not be carrying out public murders. Second, who was Michael to trust? Neri was the only person who had personal loyalty to Michael. Third, what was it that Clemenza did that would have made Michael suspicious of him? At some point Michael had to trust somebody.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: olivant] #491531
06/05/08 01:06 PM
06/05/08 01:06 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,548
AZ
Turnbull Online content
Turnbull  Online Content

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,548
AZ
The novel states that the two capos weren't close. Clemenza lived at the Mall, while Tessio was a near-autonomous operation--so much so that many thought he didn't belong to the Corleones at all. That's the impression Vito wanted to leave. And Vito deliberately kept them apart to prevent exactly the kind of scheming that might have occurred after the fishtank scene.
That scene may have provided sharp-eyed Michael with a hint of things to come. When Vito says to the capos, "Do you trust my judgment?" Clem replies, fervently, "Always, Godfather." Tess just hisses, "Yes-s-s-s." And after the meeting Clem leaves respectfully but Tess leaves in a huff. And of course, Vito warned that "Whoever comes to you with this Barzini meeting, he's the traitor."
I don't think Clem was too dumb to be a Don--I think he was aware of his limitations and content in his loyalty to the Corleones. In the Mafia, that's smart enough to survive.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Turnbull] #491537
06/05/08 01:45 PM
06/05/08 01:45 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

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Texas
TB. You'll have to point out to me where in the novel it states that Clemenza lived at the mall. In fact, in the novel right after Sonny learns that Vito was shot, it describres Sonny walking out into the mall and it states the occupants of the houses. While one might describe Clemenza as a "retainer", I don't think that was Puzo's intention.

On the broader subject, I think that both the novel and film almost go out of their way to illustrrate Clemenza's loyalty to the Corleones. Once they got past the Gatto disloyalty, Sonny and Michael relied on Clemenza tremdously. Afterall, it was Clemenza's regime that ended up guarding the mall. It was Clemenza that instructed Michael onthe assassination and it was his regime that planted the gun. After Vito died, there not much info on which to base an assessment of loyalty except that it was Clemenza's protege (Rocco) around whom Mike built a regime. In the end, the only bases for any of Mike's suspicions would be following Vito's advice: whoever comes to you with the meeting is the traitor.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Turnbull] #491538
06/05/08 01:46 PM
06/05/08 01:46 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
I would add to TB's views that Michael's comment that he figured Tessio would be the traitor because it was the smart move and Tessio was always smarter indicates an awareness that Tessio was making this move on his own and woulf not risk bringing Clemenza into it because first he was trying to save
his own ass, and second he would not risk Clemenza not going along with him, and ratting him out to Michael.

Also as much as Michael had any feeling, I always though he held extra affection for Clemenza because it was Clemenza who tutored him in how to kill Sol and McCluskey, and who was really the first person in the family to tell him how proud everyone was of his military service, not to mention he said "your father too." The cooking lesson probably didn't hurt either. We see this again in GF II when Michael reminisces about the house occupied by Pentangeli, pointing out that he was glad it was first passed from the COrleones to Clemenza (Michael obviously had a hand in this) and then to Frankie.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: dontomasso] #491580
06/05/08 04:58 PM
06/05/08 04:58 PM
Joined: Jan 2006
Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
FrankWhite Offline
Capo
FrankWhite  Offline
Capo
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Posts: 276
Huntsville, AL
hmmm... see, Clemenza has always been a favorite character of mine. I think alot of the things mentioned: the cooking lesson, the talking about the pride the family had for mike, the teasing about Kay on the phone, etc. are simple attestments to Clemenza's personality. He is just a straight up likable, good guy; while Sal always seems dark and devious (maybe a forshadowing technique by FFC???). long story short though, all Michael needed to prove Clemenza's innocence (sp?) was his father's word. Vito was so skilled with people, Dale Carnegie would grow jealous. Mike knew that what Pop says is GOSPEL... bottom line.


"From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn." (King of New York)
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: olivant] #491589
06/05/08 06:21 PM
06/05/08 06:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,548
AZ
Turnbull Online content
Turnbull  Online Content

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,548
AZ
Originally Posted By: olivant
TB. You'll have to point out to me where in the novel it states that Clemenza lived at the mall.

I can't, because the novel doesn't say so explicitly. blush I inferred it (perhaps incorrectly) from the description on p. 215 (paperback) of how Vito deliberately kept the capos apart, but kept Clemenza closely under his thumb.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Turnbull] #491625
06/06/08 05:08 AM
06/06/08 05:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
Danito Offline OP
Underboss
Danito  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2007
Posts: 1,718
Berlin, Germany
1) Clemenza's people guarded the mall? But he's asking: "Who are all the new faces?"
2) "whoever comes to you with the meeting is the traitor." Well, I think this is a hint to Michael. But even Michael and Vito knew that beside this a lot of unpredictable things can happen - even an alliance between Tessio and Clemenza. Both felt that Michael was weak as a Godfather. And the last words Tessio says: "I always liked him (Michael)."
3) It was Tessio's idea to plant the gun behind the "box-and-chain-thing".
4) Yes, Michael had a positive affection to Clemenza which everybody knew. So this could have become his weak point.
Quote:
First of all, a capo would not be carrying out public murders. Second, who was Michael to trust? Neri was the only person who had personal loyalty to Michael. Third, what was it that Clemenza did that would have made Michael suspicious of him? At some point Michael had to trust somebody.

Public murder? What do you mean?
Michael had to trust a lot of people at that point: At least Neri, Rocco and Rocco's co-assassin, Tom, Cicci, the unknown killer of Greene, Clemenza. If one of these people lets out any kind of information the whole plan fails. And of all these people, I thought, Clemenza was the guy who was at that time the most uncalculable person, because he had a lot to lose and a lot to win.

Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Danito] #491627
06/06/08 07:01 AM
06/06/08 07:01 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,527
In a van down by the river!
Longneck Offline
Longneck  Offline

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 5,527
In a van down by the river!
Clemenza was loyal and could be trusted, that is all it boils down to.




Long as I remember The rain been coming down.
Clouds of Mystery pouring Confusion on the ground.
Good men through the ages, Trying to find the sun;
And I wonder, Still I wonder, Who'll stop the rain.

Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Danito] #491693
06/06/08 12:54 PM
06/06/08 12:54 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
Originally Posted By: Danito
1) Clemenza's people guarded the mall? But he's asking: "Who are all the new faces?"
2) "whoever comes to you with the meeting is the traitor." Well, I think this is a hint to Michael. But even Michael and Vito knew that beside this a lot of unpredictable things can happen - even an alliance between Tessio and Clemenza. Both felt that Michael was weak as a Godfather. And the last words Tessio says: "I always liked him (Michael)."
3) It was Tessio's idea to plant the gun behind the "box-and-chain-thing".
4) Yes, Michael had a positive affection to Clemenza which everybody knew. So this could have become his weak point.
Quote:
First of all, a capo would not be carrying out public murders. Second, who was Michael to trust? Neri was the only person who had personal loyalty to Michael. Third, what was it that Clemenza did that would have made Michael suspicious of him? At some point Michael had to trust somebody.

Public murder? What do you mean?
Michael had to trust a lot of people at that point: At least Neri, Rocco and Rocco's co-assassin, Tom, Cicci, the unknown killer of Greene, Clemenza. If one of these people lets out any kind of information the whole plan fails. And of all these people, I thought, Clemenza was the guy who was at that time the most uncalculable person, because he had a lot to lose and a lot to win.


It's not clear whose people were guarding the mall. Don't forget, Sonny had previously told Tessio to recruit 50 reliable men for guard duty and it was Tessio who greeted Clemenza and Mike after the hospital thing.

Public murder? How about shotgunning a couple of people as they step out of an elevator and in front of an elevator operator in what is either a residential building or an office building where anyone can emerge at any time from a doorway, coming up the stairs, etc not to mention the echoing sound of both shotgun barrels being discharged.

There's a difference between trusting people and having to utilize them as assets to carry out an illegal activity. To the extent that Mafiosi are imbued with Omerta, Michael could trust Rocco et al. But when it came to real trust, it was only Neri who had an endemic loyalty to Michael borne of Michael's recruiting him personally and rescuing him from an unpleasant situation associated with his police duties. That's an army of one and Michael needed more. So, who remains as the most eligible loyalist? Clemenza.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: Danito] #491744
06/06/08 03:59 PM
06/06/08 03:59 PM
Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 55
New York
TahoeShooter Offline
Button
TahoeShooter  Offline
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Joined: Nov 2007
Posts: 55
New York
Originally Posted By: Danito

4) Yes, Michael had a positive affection to Clemenza which everybody knew. So this could have become his weak point.


Doesnt Michael tell Tom (in part2) that he learned from pop that all the men and their loyalties are based on business? Doesnt this go for any affection Michael may have had for Clemenza? I dont think Michael trusted anyone therefore I dont Clemenza would have been a weakness for him.

Re: Trust in Clemenza [Re: TahoeShooter] #491746
06/06/08 04:12 PM
06/06/08 04:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,024
Texas
Originally Posted By: TahoeShooter
Originally Posted By: Danito

4) Yes, Michael had a positive affection to Clemenza which everybody knew. So this could have become his weak point.


Doesnt Michael tell Tom (in part2) that he learned from pop that all the men and their loyalties are based on business? Doesnt this go for any affection Michael may have had for Clemenza? I dont think Michael trusted anyone therefore I dont Clemenza would have been a weakness for him.


Well, it all comes back to who do you trust. You have to trust someone sometime. Mike could think "I don't trust anyone." But, operationally, he has to trust someone at some point to carry out his orders. How does he carry out his program for success without doing so? Of al the peole around Michael, there were only three who gave him no reason to distruct them: Tom, Clemenza, and Neri. Could any one of them or any number of them proved him wrong? Yes. But, how would he have carried out his plans without trusting them?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."

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