What would be the difference between a wartime (what Sonny wanted) and a "regular" Consigliere (Tom Hagen)?

Good question. I always thought Tom was dismissed because he didn't have enough experience in dealing with the conflict between all the families. Things had been pretty quiet until Vito refused to become apart of the drug business, which ignited a long and complex war between the Corleones and the other families. I think Sonny as well as Michael felt Tom was incapable of giving proper counsel due to his lack of expertise.

Yes, a good question.
I take my cue from the novel. After he learns that Sonny was assassinated, Tom, introspectively, "...realized that he was not a wartime consigliere. Old Genco would have smelled a rat." I took that to mean that Tom wasn't a Sicilian, didn't think as a Sicilian would, lacked "Sicilian cunning"--a descriptor Puzo refers to several time sui generis, as if consigliere-like virtue derived from it.
Apart from that, Tom was a lawyer, and his lawyerly training may have led him to believe that negotiation would always save the day. Not so in mobdom...

The difference would be in making good decisions in a wartime situation. Such decisions would be the product of one's ability to anticipate the enemies next moves and to recommend effective uses of the family's resources. I think Tom's failure to smell a rat expresses Tom's lack of wartime skills quite nicely.

We are familiar with the expression, "This business, not personal." In matters of business, I'm sure Tom is quite capable, but there could be a third condition - wartime, and that has a whole different set of rules and relationships. So maybe there is another expression that is unsaid, "This is wartime, not business and not personal."

Sonny puts it like this: "Business will have to suffer."

Well Tom is a lawyer and a non-Sicilian at that. Could it be he just doesn't have the knowledge of Sicilian way-of-life to have the instincts to sense a move like this?

The theme of Tom wanting to negotiate everything and never go for the jugular runs through GF I and II. He tells Sonny if Voti dies he has to "make the deal." After Michael is beaten up and Phillip Tattaglia is killed, Tom is still trying to get Sonny to negotiate...to which Sonny answers famously "no more Sollozzzo tricks." When Tom almost convinces Sonny to negotiate Michael intervenes with his "We can't wait" speech.

During the war Tom wants to negotiate before Vito is well enough to recuperate. At the end of II he chastises Michael for wanting to rub everybody out.

Tom by nature was a concilliator, and no doubt a good business man but he was not bloodthirsty enough to be a wartime consigliere.

Being a war time consigliere is not necessarily a function of bloodthirstiness. Wars are waged to achieve tactical and strategic objectives, not just a body count.

Point taken Olivant, but wars are fought to be won and that means blodshed, and Tom was to sanguine (pardon the pun) too stomach the price of blood.

I just think it is something as a non-Sicilian that Tom wouldn't be able to understand. I think it is meant to show that no matter how a part of the Corleone family he is, his blood is still Hagen. What is it that Tom says towards the end of II, Why do you need to kill everyone? Michael replies something to the effect of "not everyone, just me enemies." Yet you get the impression that Hagen still doesn't understand.

To your point, dt: as a lawyer and trained conciliator, Tom just never saw the need to fight--or, put another way, where and when to draw the line between talking and shooting. Vito had that ability. But I'm beginning to think that Vito may have been responsible for Tom's nature. Vito kept Tom out of the line of decision-making when violence was needed--he simply passed on orders for violence to others. Vito wanted Tom to be the lawyer that he had hoped Sonny would be, and wasn't. But he also made Tom his consigliere, which is a lot more than a lawyer.

Excellent insight into Vito's psyche. As I pointed out somwhere else, I think Vito identified with Tom, who, like himself, was raised by a family that was not his own. No doubt, like many powerful self made men Vito's children were largely a diapointment to him (Michael excepted, of course) and his closeness to Tom was a source of jealousy to Sonny and Michael especially.

As for naming Tom consigliere on the heels of Genco's demise, perhaps it was a mistake. It may have been one of the signs that the don was slippin'.

Well, as Michael put it, who's a better consigliere than Vito? Nobody. Vito really didn't need anyone to advise him on strategy and tactics. All he needed was someone to negotiate on his behalf and observe what he wasn't present to see. For all the respect accorded to Genco, I doubt that he was truly anything more than a sounding board for Vito when it came to major wartime decisions.

I don't think that making Tom consigliere was a sign that the Don was slipping. However, it could be seen as short-sighted; Sonny certainly needed a true consigliere.

I believe that Vito felt that Tom, who always favored caution, would be an effective counterbalance to his heir apparent, Sonny, who always favored aggressiveness.

Interesting experiment. I wonder how it would have worked out had the transition from Vito to Sonny/Tom not been so sudden.

I think the fact that the Sonny/Tom counterblance was not working is exactly what drove Michael into the family business.
Remembe, th night Vito was shot Tom was already telling Sonny that if Vito died he would have to "make the deal." Evidently Tom listened to that even though he made the comment "that's easy for you to say he's not your father."

Then Michael gets roughted up by a cop and Sonny imulsively, and presumably without Tom's advice escalates the war by killing Tattaglia's son. The following day Tom is convincing Sonny that he should send Michael to meet Tattaglia to listen to his offer, and Sonny is leaning in that direction, saying "Ok I'll wait."
Suddenly Michael says No, we can't wait." In that moment he usurps the judgment of Tom and Sonny as he spells out his plan to kill Sollozzo and McCluskey. Tom tries to talk him out of it
but Michael outwits him with the suggestion that McCluskey isa dihonest cop, and that the story f his death could be spun by newspaper people the Corleones had on the payroll. NOW THAT is the "sicilian cunning" missing from both Tom and Sonny.

From this I conclude the Tom/Sonny alliance was unstable, and Tom could never really control Sonny's temper for example look at Tom's futile effort to keep Sonny from driving off to save COnnie. Had they succeeded Vito the Corleones would have becoe unstable and unpredictble and weaker.

DT:

I agree with everything you are saying. Sonny/Tom was not an effective leadership structure for the Corleones.

But could it have worked under different circumstances?

Imagine a scenario in which there is no war and assassination attempt. A healthy Vito decides the time is right to gradually give up power. He, over a period of time, counsels Tom and Sonny more explicitly on leading the family, and the roles he sees for them.

With the proper preparation, and if they took power during a more stable period, it's possible that the alliance would have worked better.

Warfare even among Mafiosi is an exception. Vito needed Genco's wartime incisiveness and decisiveness because a great deal of the pre-WWII Corleone family history involved war. After that, such talent was not needed very much.

Sonny's invective at Tom about not being a wartime consigliere was simply an emotional outburst. And what was Tom's sin afterall? The families were in a stalemate; "Things are starting to loosen up." That was the result of what Tom was doing, not Sonny.

It was Sonny's decision to drive to his sister's aid. In the movie and book, Tom had enough presence of mind to send bodyguards after Sonny. What else could he have done? Blocked the doorway?

Excellent points all.
Vito had serious succession problems. Like most absolute monarchs, Vito was facing the classic, "Apres moi, le deluge." The novel makes clear that he thought neither Sonny nor Fredo was capable of succeeding him.

That's why I think he was leaning so heavily on Michael becoming "Senator Corleone, Governor Corleone"--someone legitimate to take over and legitimize the basic family businesses of gambling and labor unions--the former by legalization, the latter by folding union support into his political base. Sonny would become the muscle for a diminished "olive oil business," and Tom would be Michael's political adviser.



I believe that if Tom had "Sicilian cunning," he would have seen that Carlo would thirst for vengeance after Sonny beat and humiliated him publicly, and would try a second beating of Connie to set him up. Tom's attempt to stop Sonny and to dispatch bodyguards after him was a tactical move. The strategic move would have been to anticipate it.

No. The families weren't in a stalemate. That's what Barzini/Tattaglia made Tom believe. Genco/Vito would have smelled the rat.

I wonder what would have happened if a car was sent for Connie to bring her to the Corleone mall instead of Sonny driving over to her apartment.

It was Sonny's decision to drive to his sister's aid. In the movie and book, Tom had enough presence of mind to send bodyguards after Sonny. What else could he have done? Blocked the doorway?

Like Turnball said, right after Sonny beat Carlo, had he been a wartime consilgiere, he would anticipated that Carlo would want revenge and try to lure Sonny away to get it. So when Connie called, Sonny would have known beforehand that it was a set-up.

Come on. That would be alot to credit to anyone, I don't care how cunning they are. That's really a stretch.

As far as the stalemate goes, it was Sonny who decided to pour it on, not Tom. As the novel states, the families decided that the only way to avoid complete defeat was to kill Sonny.

Come on. That would be alot to credit to anyone, I don't care how cunning they are. That's really a stretch.

I don't see how it's a stretch when Tom blamed himself for not realizing that the families laying low for so long meant danger was imminent. On page 255 in the novel, Puzo states that, "He [Tom] was, he knew now, no fit Consgliere for a Family at war." He goes on to say that "Old Genco Abbaandando would have never fallen for it, he would have smelled a rat, he would have smoked them out, tripled his precautions."

Tom made the assumption that because things had quited down that the families had stopped fighting. And thus, he failed to realize that Carlo would want revenge and lure Sonny away from the mall.

It is not a stretch at all. Even Sonny when he was level haded knew better. When Michael went to the city to see Kay and go to the hospital he was known as a "civilian" and not on the muscle end of the family, and not even involved in the family. Everyone knew he was a war hero. Still when he says he is going into the city Sonny orders someone to drive him in. WHen it is pointed out that Michael is unlikely to have any trouble he says "send someone anyway."

If Sonny could think of that precaution for Michael, Tom could have thought of it for Sonny. So who's being naive Olivant?

Sonny was acting Don. Yes, if Sonny could order that precaution for Michael then he could think of it for himself. Why in the world would he need anyone else's prompting to do so? Again, I ask, what was Tom supposed to do? Block the doorway? Take his keys? Knock him out?

Tom might have blamed himself, but that was based on his own highly emotional self-flagellating assessment of himself and his very close relationship with Sonny. The fact remains that Tom did send bodyguards after Sonny, and in the novel, called some soldiers to remove Carlo and possibly intercept Sonny.

The stretch is expecting Tom's clairvoyance to perceive that Carlo would align himself with another family to avenge his beatng by Sonny. That wouldn't have been on anybody's radar.

Its not a stretch a all.

First of all Vito told Tom early on that Carlo was to be given a living but never to have any knowledge of the family business. Translation : Vito didn't trust Carlo from the get go. Tom should have stored that in his memory bank.

Second, everyone including Tom knew that Carlo wanted to play a more active role in the family business, and when he asked about it at the dinner table Sonny humiliated him in front of the whole family.

Third. Tm knew about Sonny's temper, and likely learned that Sonny had already beaten the crap out of Carlo.

Fourth. if there was an obvious ch*nk in the Corleone armor, it was Carlo. Who better could Barzini, or Tattaglia as they believed at the time, have approached to finger Sonny?

Fifth. Tom should have convinced Sonny early on that NO ONE was to leave the compund unaccompanied. NO ONE. If that order had been given the gatekeepers it would have taken Sonny longer to get out and would have given Tom a better shot to talk him out of it.

Finally, about those guards Tom send....did they stop for coffee or something. It sure took then a long time to catch up with Sonny.

Fourth Tom knew that Carlo was likely to beat up Connie again, and it is no stretch to imagine how Sonny would react.

then he could think of it for himself. Why in the world would he need anyone else's prompting to do so?

...Because Sonny wasn't thinking rationally. All he could think about is getting his hands around the neck of the man who beat up his sister again.

Tom might have blamed himself, but that was based on his own highly emotional self-flagellating assessment of himself and his very close relationship with Sonny. The fact remains that Tom did send bodyguards after Sonny, and in the novel, called some soldiers to remove Carlo and possibly intercept Sonny.

The biggest mistake Tom made, however, is not anticipating that the families would attack again. Remember when he was advising Sonny not to go after Tattaglia in the hallway because he thought "things had loosened up a bit."

The stretch is expecting Tom's clairvoyance to perceive that Carlo would align himself with another family to avenge his beatng by Sonny. That wouldn't have been on anybody's radar.

Let's forget about the war between the families for a minute and just focus on Carlo and Sonny. I think many men, if they were beaten publicly, would want to get back at their attacker. The Corleones already irritated Carlo by not giving him an important business to run, but when Sonny beat him up in the street, he really bruised Carlo's ego as well. In Sonny's mind, the beating was supposed to teach Carlo a lesson, but all it did was make him hungrier for revenge. No one is saying is that Tom should have necessarily anticipated that Carlo would "get into bed with Barzini," but since he was the calm, more rational one, should have been able to recognize that Carlo wanted to make Sonny pay and warned him beforehand.

Sonny told Mike (in the novel) that he himself couldn't leave the compound and he told Tom not to leave the compound. Tom told Sonny (in the novel) that he shouldn't leave the house. Also, Sonny was visiting Lucy regularly and his movements were charted by the other fmilies. So, Sonny acknowledged the danger himself, but eschewed it. Mike wondered how long Sonny could remain cooped up in the mall and that eventually he would venture out. Tom tells Mike that he's trying to hold Sonny in and asks Mike to talk to him.

As the novel explains, Carlo was fearful of Sonny. It also states that his book had been shut down and he was drinking and womanizing. I would think that was much more of a source of his defection than his getting beat up.

So, I ask again: what was Tom supposed to do other than what he did?

I keep answering your question. Tom was naive to believe that the families were backing down just because they had remained quiet for so long. He wasn't experienced enough as a wartime consligiere to anticipate the enemy's next move. I think that is why he blamed himself for Sonny's death. He felt that had he had more insight into the situation like Genco would have, he could have saved Sonny's life.

That is EXACTLY where I've always felt that Tom blew it as a consigliere!

You could say that he should have gave an order that NO ONE was to leave the compound, but Sonny still was boss and if he walked out and told those bodyguards to get out of his way, they'd listen to him. You can speculate all you want about Tom being responsible for Sonny's death, his not being responsible, whatever. All these points, while maybe somewhat valid, are also full of holes and really only boil down to assumptions and what ifs.

But, as you say, Tom knowing that Sonny would beat up, if not kill Carlo, had he he abused Connie again, is the most solid point. Knowing that Sonny would go after Carlo again if Carlo abused his sister was a gimmee!

And because of that, what Tom should have done was to make it a point to Connie to tell her that if Carlo ever abused her again, she was NOT to call Mama and NEVER to call Sonny. He should have told Connie that if Carlo ever abused her again, she was to call HIM (Tom) and him only.

That's where I've always felt that Tom dropped the ball.