No way he knew. The theory that he knew and just accepted his impending death is inconsistant with what we know of Fredo and lacking in evidence.

What do we know about Fredo? First and foremost we know that he isn't that smart. We know this for many reasons. It was the analysis given to him by many characters, including the Michael himself. We know this because Fredo was fooled into contributing into a plot that required the death of his brother. We know this because he gave himself up by making the contradictory statements about Jonny ola.

By his actions we know that he is a gullible person, and far too trusting.

Next, we know that Fredo is a coward. He did nothing to stop the shooting of his father that took place in front of his very eyes. He ran from Michael in fear after being discovered in Havanna. He let Moe Green walk all over him and slap him around in Vegas.

Finally, we know that Fredo is not a very good actor; he wears his emotions on his sleeve. Case and point in my opinion is when Michael "introduces" Fredo to Jonny Ola. Fredo goes from talkative and jovial to nervous and offstandish for the few seconds he "meets" Ola and shakes his hand. If he wasn't Michael's brother and therefore above all suspicion (at that time) I believe Michael would have caught on right then.

What do these three character traits mean? His gullibility allowed Fredo to believe that he had acheived full forgiveness by his brother Michael. You can't really fault him for this, why would he not believe his brother? Michael stopped talking to him and then comes in and hugs them on the day of their mother's death? If you watch the hug that Fredo gives Michael, it is not a hug that has any reservations about the magnitude of the moment, it's the hug of a man experiencing a heavy load being lifted off of his shoulders.

Next, his cowardice. Fredo is simply not the kind of man who would acknowledge and accept his death and sit around the compound waiting for Michael to drop the hammer. He just simply couldn't do it, it'd be completely contradictory to his character. This also ties in to my third point, Fredo not being a good actor. He could not live a relaxed life, going fishing with his nephew, with the knowledge that he was going to get popped at any moment.

The Hail Mary was an added touch put into the film to make his death more artistic. There's no way Fredo would sit there knowing Al was about to put a gun to his head. When you go fishing in a canoe, that's how you sit.

Finally, I think there's one more point that hasn't been considered: NOBODY would think Michael capable of killing his own brother. Even Connie in III, a woman who becomes very close with Michael and just as if not more ruthless than he is, doesn't even consider the possibility that Fredo was not killed in a drowning accident. You have to keep in mind how important family was to everyone including Michael, and the idea that Michael would kill his own brother for revenge could not be fathomed by anyone, LEAST of all Fredo himself.

I'm sorry if I've dragged on. Let me know what you think.

Bravo, Sicaollgeto. E vero!

I think that this is very well written and is right on the money! Great post! Welcome to the boards!


Don Cardi

I think you made excellent points, and welcome! I have to disagree with you on Connie not knowing what happened to Fredo. Early in GF III Kay tells Michael that Anthony knows Michael had Fredo killed. If that information was available to Kay and Anthony, it would have been available to Connie. Moreover, Connie was the one who was used to get Anthony off the boat the day Fredo ended up sleeping withthe fishes instead of catching them.

I think the real clue about what Connie knew is in GF III after Michael tells her that he had gone to confession. First she expresses surprise that Michael would do such a thing, and then she says something like "poor Fredo, drowning like that..." and then she says "its finished" and she falls into Michael's arms sobbing. That was her way of telling Michael that he did what he had to do, and her way of forgiving him.

True. If Kay and Anthony knew, then Connie would have to know. But, Connie has to maintain the family fiction about Fredo to preserve her sanity. Can you imagine what it would be like to know that your brother murdered your other brother? That he took his time and planned it cooly and calmly? And with total alacrity used you in his fraticide? Her denial effort must have been monumental. But, then again, she has no problem conspiring with Vincent and Neri to Murder Zaza. Perhaps that was her effort to disassociate Michael from Fredo's murder by casting Michael (in her mind) as the hunted one, the threatened one. I don't know. It's all pretty horrifying.

By the way, how do you think that Anthony found out?

Yes, Connie was the protector of this family fiction. I have posted many times that she is possibly the most interesting character in the trilogy because she changes from a "spoiled guinea brat" to a tramp, and eventually she becomes the true matriarch of the family, responsible for the hit on Altobello and responsible for the succession to Vincent (she also ordered the hit on Zasa).

I think Kay knew that Michael killed Fredo, and when Anthony finally went to live with her he told her about how he was called out of the boat at the last minute, ans then Kay probably told him that Michael arranged the whole thing.

What makes you think Kay knew?

In GF III Kay says to Michael "Anthony knows that you killed Fredo."

After months of thinking about it, I still say that Fredo knew he was going to die!

DS

You might want to think about it some more, Don Smitty.

Because he didn't.

Predictably yours,


Apple

(who will ALWAYS respond thusly to those who insist otherwise)

DS

If Fredo knew, then why would he have gotten on the boat with Neri and without Anthony? Michael led Fredo into a world of false security. Made him feel that he had been forgiven and that all was forgotten. IMO Fredo had no idea.


Don Cardi

I respect you thoughts DC and you do know more about the GodFather then I ever could. But, I think he went on the boat because he wanted out. He was a disgrace to Michael and he just might have thought that his life had no more meaning in it. We see that Fredo is very depressed towards the end of the Godfather movie and maybe just maybe he was thinking about suicide during those tough moments. He was a religious guy as we can see because he said the Hail Mary a lot and maybe he thought he wouold go to hell if he killed himself. Maybe he thought that if would die by someone else and not by his own hand that God would let him into heaven. Maybe he thought he would not be aloud into heaven if he committed suicide. Kind of like a suicide by cop sort of deal.

DS

You've got to be kidding. What you state above is SO unlike Fredo that it is virtually comical.

On the contrary, near the end of GFII he's revitalized, because he's been (as far as he knows) forgiven and taken back by his brother. By the time of his (unexpected) death, Fredo is a happy, content man.

(And if by any chance you are referring to the original Godfather movie, since we don't see him again after the Moe Green meeting we cannot really make that assumption.)

He said the Hail Mary when he wanted to catch a fish. There's nothing in either the novel or either film to suggest Fredo was 'religious'.

Absolutely...which is why he got away from Michael as fast as he could (twice) when his betrayal was discovered in Cuba.

Ok, Don Smitty - now I KNOW you've been kidding around.

Very funny, good jokes...all of them!

Apple

DS, sorry, but to believe that you would have to believe that Fredo was SMAHT not dumb like everyone says, SMAHT!

This is one point that DC and Apple and I argued in person. As firmly as they believe that Fredo did NOT know, I believe that he did. I believe that he was resigned to his fate, that he knew that this day would come eventually, and that he was grateful to have lived out his last days within his family's embrace.

Well, we didn't really 'argue' it as the topic wasn't discussed for very long.

Anyway, you are wrong, SB. He didn't know and if he did, or if he even thought it a possibility that he might be 'offed' at Michael's order, he would've run, been caught, freaked, begged, pleaded...true to character right to the very last second.

See illustration below:

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+
+
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= Fredo Corleone's last moments..if he knew.

He was NOT resigned to his fate, as he didn't know what it was.

Fredo didn't know.

Apple

It wasn't discussed very long?? Geez, I remember a rather lively discussion over some wonderful garlic bread....I thought DC was going to throw some at me at one point, but I think it tasted too good to waste!!

And I believe that Fredo did know.

Yes, there was much lively discussion and the garlic bread WAS delicious!! But the subject of Fredo knowing or not knowing (so thoughtfully brought up I believe, by DMC) did not last very long.

And he didn't know.

However, SB...speaking of that dinner I never forgot and must thank you for correctly translating what Frankie says at the end of that first meeting with Michael. I always get a kick out of reading the subtitle now, knowing what he's REALLY saying

Apple

Pull in again, just like a fish on a line I see.

I am always happy to provide my translating skills, especially after a few glasses of wine. That somehow seems to improve them.

Let's keep the personal stuff out of this thread and stick to the topic being discussed.


Don Cardi

That's because they put the calamari on the table and everyone forgot what they were talking about.

I will never be convinced that at that point Fredo knew or even thought that his own brother would have him killed. Yes, when he has the slip of the tongue in Cuba, he was definitely afraid and figured that he was done with. That's why he runs from Michael and refuses to get into the car. He was scared at that point.

But even after Mike tells him in the boathouse, "You're nothing to me Fredo, not a brother, etc, etc." I don't believe that Fredo feared for his life anymore. At that point I think that Fredo knew that Micheal was finished with him, bit not in the sense that he would take his life away.

And once Mike took Fredo back into his arms at his mother's wake, his doing so, forgiving Fredo, completely wiped out any fears that Fredo might have still had in regards to his life. At that point Fredo was led to believe that all was well and that he had absolutely nothing to fear.

In Fredo's mind, and his heart, he was forgiven and back in the good graces of his brother Michael.


Don Cardi

And again, no. I see it in an entirely different light. Fredo, frightened and alone in the world, wracked with guilt, returns to his brother's world. He hopes for Michael's true forgiveness, but when Connie calls Anthony out of the boat, Fredo knows that it was a vain hope. He says goodbye to Anthony, and softly tells Al that it's okay to go.

I totally agree. Fredo knew.

C'mon! Of course he didn't know. Fredo was a coward. He didn't have the balls to sit quitely in the boat waiting to get shot...

BTW, the only one who knew in adavance that he will be killed was Tessio ("Can you get me off the hook?"). Paulie didn't know, Carlo didn't know, Moe didn't know etc...

I wonder if Fredo was a bus driver in heaven?

Rest in peace Richard Bright!

That is how I see it to. I agree.


DS

Of course, that's the romantic version, the version we'd like to envision if Fredo had grown, been a more mature, braver person than he'd been throughout the entirety of the two GF films. But it's not the case. No scene in which Fredo appeared showed even a glimmer of a hope that he was capable of reaching the point described by SB above.

It's a somewhat understandable POV, because as stupid, weak, petty and ignorant as Fredo is...he is basically a nice guy and we hate to see him go this way (even though Michael's decision is justified). So we might try to tell ourselves that in the last moments of his life he knows there's no escape and suddenly becomes a man. Some of us may need to envision this final 'dignified' Fredo Corleone.

But that's not the case.

Fredo was no Tessio. He didn't know. I'll even add that Michael didn't WANT him to know, because if he did, he would've made sure Fredo was aware of what was about to happen. It would not have happened under the guise of a routine fishing trip.

Apple

Fredo DIDN'T know!...