I was thinking about this last night and was wondering as to why Rocco would volunteer to go on what was really a suicide mission to kill Roth? Did he really believe that he would kill him and get away? I just find it very hard to believe that The Corleone's were not smart enough to figure out that it would be suicide for Rocco to kill Hyman Roth!


DS

DS

Do a search on this topic and you'll find many previous discussions. In short, Rocco was on the outs with Michael as Neri was the Don's first confidant by the end of GFII. So Rocco was trying, against the odds, to prove his worthiness and reclaim some value within the Family.

I really don't see it as Rocco *VOLUNTEERING* as in to do the job. Michael asks him if a hit on Roth can be accomplished, he answers difficult not impossible and that's pretty much taken as an order that it's Rocco's job to do.

Of course he knows he's risking his life...but it's the nature of the business they've all chosen carries out the job, attempts to get away and fails.

Rocco did what he was delegated to do. He carried out his Don's order and was successful in killing Hyman Roth. He lost his life in the process but that sometimes comes with the territory. It had nothing to do with volunteering.

And it had nothing to do with Neri.

Apple

I don't think that it had anything to do with Neri either. A similar question came up in the past and some had written that they felt that Rocco took this "suicide mission" out of guilt for being part of the plot to take out Michael at the begining of GF2. Of course this is just pure opinion and speculation. Who knows? Maybe Rocco started to see how Mike was taking everyone out and figured that this was his best shot at redeaming himself and saving his own life. Or maybe, with everyone else gone that could tie him into being a part of Roth's plot to kill Michael, Rocco figured that Roth was the only one left who knew that he was a part of the plot and decided he, Rocco, had to make sure that Roth was taken out. It's a very unexplained and complex issue. Maybe Rocco was the one who killed the Tahoe hitmen. All interesting but hard to answer questions.

Geoff, we need to somehow get FFC on these boards for a question and answer session!


Don Cardi

It is a matter of Rocco upholding his oath and keeping his honor. If his Don gave him an order to make a hit then he has to carry it out. While he may have been somewhat more motivated by the closeness between Neri and Michael, this would not have been a determinative factor for any loyal soldier.

On a much farther afield note, I would add this: Who says Rocco died? We could bring him back to life in GF IV by showing he had a bulletproof vest. Maybe he has been in the same army base where they kept Frank Pentangeli.

DonT,

Even if Rocco was loyal to carry out the Don's order, there was absolutely no reason that they could have not planned a better way to hit Roth. Why have Rocco do it then? Why not send someone else who was expendable to finish the job? Rocco was a high ranking man in The Corleone family and yet the plan of executing Roth was a weak plan with no way out! And as you say how do we know that he didn't have a bulletproof vest on? Well if he did, then that would even be more stupid on the part of Michael as I believe that Michael wanted whoever was sent on that job, not to live! Michael wanted all roads that could lead to his connection to illegitimacy shut down and destroyed! If Rocco was sent on that hit wearing a vest, then he definately runs the risk of being caught and taken into custody! No, Michael would have NEVER taken that kind of chance. Michael knew damn well that whoever went on that hit would never make it out alive. So why Rocco?

Don Cardi

Well, again, here we are somewhat constrained by the reality this is fiction. I suppose because we (the audience) know who Rocco is, FFC wanted a familiar face doing the hit. My comment about the bullet proof vest was made in jest, but your point that this was a suicide mission is well taken. I think however, Michael was very explicit about how he wanted the hit to go down because he said he wanted the "plane to be met in Miami." Obviously Roth was going to be taken into custody, where they could not have got to him, however if Roth was indeed based on Myer Lansky Michael would have had to know that he would get out of custody soon enough, at which time a safer hit could be attempted. I also suppose they could have whacked him someplace between the spot where the plane landed and the spot of the press conference...and come to think of it when was the last time the FBI took someone in cuffs to give a press conference anyway?

Yes, exactly. That even solidifies my theory even more that Michael did not want whoever carried out the hit to make it out of there alive! So that again raises the question as to why someone of Rocco's stature in the Corleone family would be chosen to carry out a suicide mission?

The more we talk about this and the more I think about it, maybe the theory of Rocco being in on the plot to kill Mike makes more and more sense! I believe that it was Plawrence who originally posted that theory a while back. Could be wrong, but I am pretty sure it was Plaw. So if that theory is correct, then was Rocco the one who took out the Tahoe Hitmen?


Don Cardi

Michael wanted his enemies wiped out. Roth was an enemy. Roth was responsible for most of what happened to Michael and the Family over the previous months, probably some of the worst of his life. I think Michael wanted Roth dead and that was the extent of his concern. He wanted somebody *good* to carry it out. Rocco was good, and stated that the job would be difficult but not impossible. That was all Michael needed to hear. I don't think he gave a hoot as to whether Rocco or anyone else came out of it dead or alive. He gave the job to Rocco because he wanted Roth dead. Rocco was the best man for the job. If Rocco survived, terrific. If he didn't then as long as the job got done then it was a mission accomplished. Had Rocco come back without having managed to kill Roth, then he'd be in a whole bunch of other trouble with Don Corleone.

That's it.

Apple

"That's It!" That's the bottom line...cause APPLE said so!


Don Cardi

I never interpreted Mike asking Rocc0("Rocco?"...."Difficult, not impossible") to mean that it actually had to be Rocco himself who carried out the hit.

I'm sure Mike would have known Rocco's plan and
approved it, but had Rocco had an alternate yet viable plan for Killing Roth, I'm sure Michael would have approved that one as well.

Rocco probably figured it was a suicide mission, and when Mike heard Rocco's plan, he probably figured out it was a suicide mission also.

We could even add to the plot that Mike tried to talk Rocco out of carrying out the hit himself.

But I think the plan itself was Rocco's idea, not Michael's, and that's why I think there's the element of Rocco seeking some type or redemption here. Either for his complicity in the "Assassinate Michael" scheme (unlikely, I think), or his failing Mike in not having the premises adequately secure on the night of the attempt on Michael (more likely, IMO).

Or maybe it's what I think Turnbull has suggested in the past: Rocco was being pushed out by Neri, and he simply intended to re-establish his importance in Michael's eyes.

I like the way he answers Michael so quickly, while calmly munching on a piece of fruit.

Don Cardi, you're so insightful, so perceptive !!!




Apple

Apple, I know that you must not have the "last word" in your house, because I am certain that you have the second to last word, and the last words always are "yes dear."

Yes, mommy...is more like it.

Actually, I would agree that the actual 'plan' of meeting Roth's plane and then whacking him would not be Michael's. I'd also add that Michael didn't care how it was done...as long as it was done.

Apple

Ok, just so it's not "yes Mommie Dearest," that'll fly.

Apple, with all due respect, it WAS Michael's plan to have Roth met at the plane. However you are correct in stating that Michael didn't care how it was done...as long as it was done.
------------------------------------------------------------
Here is that part of the transcript :

TOM : That plane goes to Miami.


MICHAEL : That's where I want it met.


TOM : Mike that's impossible -- they'll turn him over to the Internal Revenue, customs, and half the FBI.


MICHAEL : It's not impossible. Nothing's impossible.


TOM : I'd be like trying to kill the president -- there's no way we can get to him.


MICHAEL : TOM, you know you surprise me -- if anything in this life is certain -- if history has taught us anything -- it's that you can kill anybody. ROCCO?


ROCCO : Difficult -- not impossible.

------------------------------------------------------------

So obviously Micheal wanted it done there, when Roth got off his plane. And in saying " ROCCO?" Michael is asking Rocco if it can be done. So the actual plan of HOW Roth would be killed was Rocco's plan, but WHEN Roth would be killed was Michael's order. I am sure that Michael was aware of how Rocco intended to take out Roth. Michael was very cunning and calculative, and had to realize that Rocco's plan would in all likelyhood turn out to be a suicide mission. So why would he allow one of his two TOP men to sacrifice his own life in that way? had Michael really become so cold and uncaring that he wanted Roth dead even at the cost of one of his right hand man's life? Or was Michael allowing Rocco " a way out " just as he did with Pentangelli!?!

Don Cardi

Why didn't Mike just let Roth die of a natural cause.Roth's health was reported terminal and he only had another 6(I think) months to live.

Roth was dying of the same heart attack for 20 years.

As a matter of principle, Michael never gave a pass of any kind to an enemy. And Roth was too dangerous to let live, even if he lived for only six months more.
As for Rocco and his "suicide mission":

A subtheme in GFII is how Neri attempts to push Hagen and Rocco aside to become #2 to Michael. Many examples, but the best one is in the penultimate boat house scene. We see Neri lead the discussion, slouched in a chair, talking about Roth's moves, giving a smug little grin when Michael confronts Tom with his knowledge of another job offer and Tom's mistress (Neri probably was the source of that knowledge). Rocco just stands silently, like the mere bodyguard he was in most of GFII. After Tom objects to Michael's plan to have Roth killed, Michael further humiliates him: "You know, Tom, you surprise me...if there's one certainty...it's that you can kill anyone." The he immediately says, Rocco?" Notice that he didn't say, "Al?" Michael put Rocco on the spot: after Tom's humiliation, what could Rocco say, except, "difficult, not impossible."
So, why did he take on this apparent suicide mission? Because Michael, in effect, left him no choice. And, perhaps, because he saw it as a last-ditch attempt to push ahead of Neri. IMO, it was too late: Michael had decided that Rocco was expendible, Neri wasn't.

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Yes, Don C ...I am familiar with the dialogue and KNOW that Michael wanted the plane 'met' and Roth eliminated. That was not what I meant by 'the plan'.

Rocco stated (countering Tom's response) it was difficult not impossible. From that moment, the assignment was Rocco's and it was pretty much up to Rocco how to get it done. His deciding to pose as a reporter was pretty clever, as it did enable him to get close enough to fire the necessary shots.

Apple

No one is disagreeing with that Apple! The question is why would Rocco sacrifice his own life to take out Roth? There had to be a reason, guilt, redemption, whatever. I just don't but the Neri/Lampone silent fued theory as I think that if that were the case, Rocco still could have had someone else take out Roth and then he would have still fallen right back in to the graces of Michael. The Corleone's were clever and cunning and surely realized that Rocco would be going on a suicide mission in pulling off the hit in that manner. So WHY allow Rocco to do the job himself? Was there a method behind Michael's madness in having Rocco go on that hit? Did Mike suspect that Rocco could have been in on the plot to take him out and thus gave this job to Rocco to provide a way out, sort of the same way that he allowed Pentangelli a way out? To die with honor? Why not let another person, one under Rocco that was more expendable, do the job? That is the question at hand my lady!

Don Cardi

Rocco sacrificed his own life to take out Roth because he was given the assignment. It was Rocco who decided that the meeting the plane wasn't impossible and therefore Rocco who had to carry out the job. What's so difficult to comprehend about that?

You guys can debate all you want about discarded draft screenplays and 'subthemes' (imagined or unimagined) and accounts of feuds, redemption, etc. that are simply not covered in the film and therefore af no significance to me. (Is a Rocco/Neri conflict discussed in the novel?) You can assume that Rocco could've hired somebody underneath him but the elimination of Roth was too important a job to trust a lower guy with - this involved a bit more than simply waiting for an elevator to open and blowing everybody away.

The bottom line is the task of killing Roth was given to Rocco. It was a life-risking job and Rocco was in a life-risking line of work. He risked his life every single day by working for the Corleone Family - and this time with Roth despite his efforts to escape - the sacrifice was made.
It was a chance he had to take.

I'm not sure which subject has been stretched to more ridiculous lengths - this one or how did Anthony get a role in a opera so fast.

Or the all time favorite...whether or not Fredo knew.

Which of course he didn't.



Best,
Apple

I really don't know the anser to this one but I hear you Don C - perhaps the motivation for Rocco being sent on this suicide mission was that he was still in trouble for the deaths of the Tahoe assassins? You remember how sharply Michael said "Rocco! ALIVE!" and oops they turned up dead.

I don't mean necessarily that he was responsible for their deaths, as I sincerely doubt Mike would have kept him around had he suspected any guilt on his part, but perhaps this was one of the ways in which Rocco was expendable and Neri wasn't.

It still strikes me as bizarre that a capo would be sent to perform the hit, when they have a ton of soldatos who would be much more appropriate, but maybe from a dramatic POV it's to show that Mike by the end of II has isolated himself from everyone except the cold, murderous Al Neri and Connie who's got nobody else. Even Rocco and Hagen were out. Part of the tragedy, methinks

Yeah, but you keep on pulling along with the rest of us!


Don Cardi

Don Cardi....

Some topics are just too much fun to walk away from.
Plus it's Friday and I gotta piss as many people off as possible before heading out for the weekend.



Apple

I hear you loud and clear. I'm heading out myself this weekend. Atlantic City here I come! LET IT RIDE BABY!


Don Cardi

Yes! I have all my old replies on a dedicated server. Any time a "new" thread comes on that repeats an earlier one, I just push a button and the appropriate old answer of mine is pasted in. The button I push isn't a Cicci-like button, it's adapted from the "snooze" button of a cheap alarm clock. So, you got the symbol right, pl!

Why dont we just have a special "Ask Turnbull" section on these Boards?

Are there any 'Buffers?"


Don Cardi