Michael makes mention of Fredo's "good heart" and there have been many postings on these boards to the effect that Fredo was all heart and no brains, but what evidence is there of his having such a "good heart?" Certainly his heart is in the wrong place when he does things like allow his father to walk across the street unaccompanied; when he bangs cocktail waitresses two at a time; or when he blows up at Michael.

In which scenes do we really see that Fredo did have a good heart... or could it just be a myth?

That's a really good question, dt! At last: someone challenging this seemingly unchallengeable conventional wisdom:
Like you, I see no real evidence of Fredo having a "good heart," at least not in the film. Families often take pity on the dumb, or addled, or failed, members of the family by rationalizing their (largely self-inflicted) mistakes and misdeeds--"well, he has a good heart, though..." About the only thing we saw in the novel in Puzo's first description of Fredo: "He was the kind of son parents dream of...still living at home..." Probably he was still living at home, being obedient, etc., because he lacked the brains or initiative to be on his own and make decisions for himself. That's an example of the kind of rationalization I meant.

By a good heart I think it was meant that he intendedt no harm because he just couldn't figure out the harm. he just couldn't figure the angles.

The fact that Fredo failed in protecting his Father shows that he was really not meant to be a bodyguard(Blame Sonny for a lack of appropriate back up for his Father, did he really think that Paulie and Fredo were up to such a job.It always seemed that there was plenty of tough guys shuffling around the compound leaning their fat asses against the cars?)Who of us would turn down two cocktail waitresses if they were available and told that they better spread their legs for you.Why shouldn't Fredo be allowed to blow up at Michael who is he Jesus Christ? Their seems to be this cult of Michael worshippers (all that sullen machismo must be a real turn on). Yeah Fredo had a good heart,and look what it got him, being fish food at the bottom of Lake Tahoe.His first instinct to run away from that sack of shit Michael in Havana was the correct one.

Why would you blame Sonny?

Actually Paulie was under Fredo's jurisdiction. When Sonny complains to Clemenza about Paulie's absence, Clemenza says he asked Fredo if he wanted him replaced, but Fredo said no.

I LIKE this post!

At a way to come strong, DONPARDO.

You come strong or you DON'T come at all!

He asked that of Fredo as a courtesy since, in Paulie's absence, Fredo would have to do the driving. As the novel says, Paulie was Clemenza's protege; he had advanced Paulie over others in his Regime. Clemenza gave Paulie the Bonasera job and handled his execution. Clemenza was under suspicion because Paulie was of his Regime. Fredo is no where in sight.

I agree with TB's assessment of Fredo. He is stupid and weak and probably couldn't find his way out of a paper bag if Sonny and Vito weren't at the other end with a flashlight. The one thing that was obvious was that he loved his father, as we can see by his complete emotional meltdown at his father's shooting. This might lead people to comment how good-hearted he was.

However, he does nothing to show that he's selfless or has a good heart. He doesn't learn the casino business. Instead, he prefers to use his position as a Corleone to have sex. He marries a drunken tramp, he frequents sex clubs in other countries, becoming nothing like the father he supposedly adored.

As a matter of fact, Fredo shows anything BUT a good heart. If his actions are to speak for him, once he leaves his father's house, he leads nothing but a completely hedonistic life, concerned only with his own pleasures.

And why shouldn't he lead a hedonistic life? He was passed over. For land's sake, his mother used to tell him that he was left on the doorstep by Gypsies.


Seriously, you are correct about his not being more like his father. He himself admits that when he is talking to Michael and says

"Sometimes I think I shoulda married a woman like you did -- like KAY. Kids -- have a family. For once in my life -- be more like -- Pop."


I don't think that on his own, Fredo was malicious. I think that deep down he really did have a good heart. The guy was banished to Las Vegas, the son of the mightiest Mafia boss in the country, and he was being slapped around by Moe Green. In his mind nothing was done about it by his family who sent him there That had to hurt him.

His brother re-builds this huge empire, and he gives him the job of running a night club and a brothel. It had to hurt him deep down inside, being treated the way that he was all those years. And then a guy like Johnny Ola gets a hold of his ear, and gets into Fredo's head turning what probably was hurt and disappointment on Fredo's part in anger and resentment.

On his own I don't think that Fredo would maliciously hurt a fly. Geez, he couldn't even hold a gun when his father was being shot!
He really was a "Mishkeena"

DC, it's you that has the good heart. Fredo was pathetic, whether or not he was a "poor soul" could fill an entire thread.

DC, we will always disagree about Fredo. I think he was a little creep who was a danger to his brother, and you see him in a far more sympathetic light. He deserved to be slapped around by Moe!!

Also at the Dons' conference, Vito learns that Fredo has a genius for running a hotel out in Las Vegas. He is then put in charge of at least one of the Family's brothels out there. Not exactly kudos, but not the picture of the unskilled mendicant you paint.

C'mon now SB. His inability and his simpleness is what made him a danger to the family. Of course Vito, Sonny and Michael had to keep him out of the loop at times. But it was not because he was a little creep who posed a direct threat to his family. It was because he was a little simpleton who could innocently pose a danger to his family.

Fredo, like Michael, morphed into this cold and resentful person. His simpleness and hurt was twisted around by Johnny Ola.

If Fredo had gone out on his own seeking to make a deal with Ola and Roth, then I would agree that he was a conniving little creep who was intentionally looking to hurt his family. But that was not the case. Ola and Roth went looking for him because they knew that he was a simple minded person who could be persuaded. They knew that his being simple minded could be used as the ch*nk in the Corleone armor. They exploited Fredo's hurt and resentfulness and turned it into anger.

Never said that he was totally unskilled.

Look at what his brother did to him when he went out to Vegas. Fredo had found a form of satisfaction and was enjoying his life and what he was doing in Vegas, and he wanted to show Michael that he could do things on his own, that he was somewhat a success. And what does Michael do? He shits all over it. He totally degrades Fredo by showing no appreciation whatsoever for what Fredo had done to welcome him to Las Vegas.

First they banish him to Las Vegas. He gets abused by Moe Green. Then when he makes the most of it and begins to accept what's been handed to him, his kid brother comes along and shits all over it.

The welcome? A grand example how he put pleasure over business. Not to say that Michael wasn't rude, but he was pissed at Fredo already for the whole Moe Greene thing. Fredo wasn't any SORT of success. He wasn't paying attention to business, to the point where the gamblers were begging for a drink, something unheard of in a casino.

I don't disagree that Fredo dropped the ball in las Vegas. He proved that he was not capable of doing what he was supposed to in the Casino business.

But the Corleones did NOT really send Fredo out there to learn the Casino business. They sent him out there to recover from what he witnessed when his father was almost killed. To protect him because a war was about to break out. It was a business arrangement in the sense that Corleones agreed to finance Moe's Vegas hotel and they arranged to have the Molinari family provide Moe with what he needed for his Hotel. Their price : guarantee Fredo's safety.

The Corleones never intended for Fredo to actually learn the casino business. It was purely a business arrangement made so that they would not have to worry about Fredo's safety during a war.

Had Sonny lived and went out to Vegas and was given a reception like that by Fredo, you can rest assured that Sonny would have kissed Fredo on the head and then would have started banging those cocktail waitresses two at a time himself before meeting with Moe.

What int he world are you writing about? I just posted above a praphrase of the novel. Here's the quote: "He had a genius for running a hotel. Don Corleone shook his head in wonder, as many fathers do when told of undreamed-of talents in their children. Wasn't it true that sometimes the greatest misfortunes brought unforeseen rewards?"

Are you maintaining, as you put it, that because he didn't learn the casino business (which, by the way, there is nothing in the novel or film to indicate that he didn't learn it) he was a failure?

Um, I'm writing about the FILM. The FILM is different from the NOVEL. In the NOVEL, Fredo was rather successful, but this forum is about the TRILOGY.

In the FILM, Fredo goes to Vegas, has sex with so many waitresses that the gamblers can't get a drink, and gets slapped around by Moe Greene, making the Corleone Family look weak. If he's so busy with the cocktail waitresses, when is he learning the business?? Keeping your gamblers thirsty and getting beaten in public doesn't sound like a rip-roaring success to me. If he was sent to Vegas to learn the casino business, and he didn't, then, yes, I would consider him a failure.

In the NOVEL, Fredo takes very well to the casino business and IS quite successful. You are quite right on that point.

Oh, now I remember. yeah, the scene where Fredo gets off the plane at the Vegas airport, goes right to the casino, and starts having sex with the waitresses in the casino. Wow, with all that happening and so quickly, of course Fredo could not possibly had time to learn the casino business. And Moe slapping him around: "Hey Fredo, how come you asked Moe to slap you around?"

There is absolutely no need for hostilities and sarcasm here. We're having a friendly discussion. You've both made your point. One argument is based on the book and is correct in regards to the book and the other argument is based on the movie, and this IS the trilogy thread.

Olivant, I don't believe that they need to show every single action. Fredo's actions were told through Michael's and Moe's dialogue, as well as the scene with the party girls.

And what was that dialogue? There was nothing in it that indicated that Fredo had not learned the Casino business. You really think that because of Fredo's proclivity for sex that casino gamblers couldn't get a drink? As far as the "party girls" scene goes, that's so unusual? A rich and powerful guy comes to Las Vegas and finds girls and entertainment waiting for him?

Since everyone in the family knew that Fredo was weak why was he even allowed to walk his Father from the office to the car? Was it mandatory that a son of the Don be given an important job? Sonny must have been aware that Sollozzo would be pissed that his offer was rejected,shouldn't the Dons'protection have been ratcheted up at this time?

I have to agree with you there Olivant.

This discussion underscores a problem in GF and II: Fredo is made out to be so pathologically weak and stupid as to be a near-charicature. He was, to be sure, a minor character in GF and in the novel, and FFC and Puzo were wise to give him a major (even pivotal) role in II. But I think his character was distorted from the get-go. In the novel, we see him described as a dutiful son. He has two moments of weakness: his nervous breakdown when Vito was shot, and the gaffe with Moe Green. But in GF, the first thing we see of Fredo is that he's dead drunk at Connie's wedding. Then, he's not just taking Moe's side, he's also setting Michael up for debauchery--and giving Moe a back rub. The flashback scene ("The Japs didn't know it was Pop's birthday") is just gratuitously stupid.

You might argue that Fredo's treason in II (especially the boathouse outburst) was the more shocking because of how weak and stupid he appeared earlier. But I think he could have been a more effective character if he'd been given a little more balance--especially in the person of such a fine actor as John Cazale.

Paulie Gatto was to be bodyguarding Vito that day but called in sick at the last minute. An act of treason that was avenged in the famous "leave the gun, take the cannoli" scene.

Olivant, I think that Moe made it clear that Fredo tended to his own needs first, even at the neglect of the gamblers in the casino. Also, if he knew his brother well, he would know that Michael was not the type for girls and parties. He would know that Michael was all business. To me, that speaks volumes.

Feel free to disagree. I'm one of those people who think that Fredo knew he was going to die, and I've had many a debate over it with some of the members here.

How could he know his brother well? Michael was away in the service and then when he returned it was only a short time later that his father was shot and Fredo sent to Nevada. Then Mike dissapeared for several years hiding in Sicily, and when he returned Fredo was still in Vegas. So when would he have had the opportunity to observe the kind of person that Michael really was or had become?

And the brothers had no contact over all those years?? None at all? Fredo never came home for a visit? That's rather odd. Fredo knew what Michael's face looked like before his surgery, enough to comment on the improvement in his appearance. Obviously, the brothers had seen one another.