When does Michael start to change from Joe College to Don Corleone?

I think its actually earlier than most think... I think its when he tells Kay about Luca Brasi and his father and the band leader. The way he tells it. It was like a swith was turned on. His eyes, his lethargic-like delivery.

thoughts?

When does Michael start to change from Joe College to Don Corleone?

thoughts?

I think it's much later, when Michael proposes the idea of the having the gun planted at the restaurant. 'I'll kill them both. It's not personal, Sonny. It's strictly business.' His eyes are completely expressionless and I think it's the birth of the monster.

Or it could be even earlier than that. I can't help thinking of the whole hospital scene, with Michael acting completely logically. Also in front of the hospital. Enzo is clearly nervous but Michael, although probably scared inside, projects an aura of calm.

wow... so you believe that he had not changed, even after killing McCluskey and Sollozo as cold as he did, before Sicily??? I think the concept of "monster" is so relative to one's POV (in mine, Michael NEVER reaches the level of "monster"). So, maybe by your perception of this concept, Michael didn't achieve it till later, but the turning point of his character is, IMO, the scene in front of the hospital.

Well, he started to change himself when he was about three years old. Before that his mother used to changed him. If he didn't change until after the War, I'd hate to think of the terrible time he would have had in the Marines.

Just how long have you been in Texas, Mr. Olivant ?

Michael did a number of terrible things, including having his brother murdered.

Just out of curiosity, what, in your POV, does one have to do to reach the level of "monster?"

Well, I simply say that to say that he had justification and logic behind all the moves he made.

Michael allowed jealousy to affect his treatment towards Tom Hagen. That wasn't fair to Tom, considering Tom ate and breathed Corleone, and only wished to do his best towards the family.

Since Tom was close to both Santino and Vito, closer than Michael ever was, caused Michael to feel resentment and jealousy towards Tom.

With all that said... I do not see anything wrong with either of your (DC & Buttmonker) assessments. I just have a slightly different view.

Frank, 99.9% of the time I agree with your assesments regarding the Godfather trilogy and it's characters. But this is one time that I must disagree with you in regards to Michael. Buttmonker hits the nail on the head when he says that Michael was writing new chapters never dreamed of by Vito.

In his mind, at the begining of his journey into the life, I believe that he believed that he was doing what was best for his family. And I also believe that he was trying to convince himself that he needed to do the things that he did in order to legitimize the family. But there was a streak of selfishness in Michael. A self serving egotistical trait. Michael grew to love the power. He let his lust for power consume him to the point that he couldn't even discern if he was doing right or wrong when it came to his own brother. And he fooled himself into thinking that he was a legitimate businessman. Michael eventually justified, at least to himself, every horrible thing that he ever did.

In the parameters of mobdom, his killing Sollozo and McCluskey was neccesary. His killing the heads fo the families was neccesary. Many of the moves that he made WERE neccesary in order for him to preserve the family and regain it's power.

But Michael reached a point that went beyond saving the family and perserving it's power. He became so consumed with weilding such power that he began to boarder paranoia! He eventually would do anything to make sure that no one would ever threaten his well being ever again OR take his power away from him. And even if it meant abusing and manipulating them (Tom) or killing them, own family or not.

Tom asked him if he felt he needed to kill everyone. And Michael replied, "just my enemies."

In Michael's mind, at that point, everyone was his enemy.

If as you say Michael was only going by the book, then he would never have seekd the redemption that he did by the time GFIII rolled around.

Well, what about his statements to Kay at the Commendatore celebration? He told Kay that he was trying to protect her and the kids from the horrors of the world.

I believe that Michael was trying to fool himself by saying that. He certainly wasn't fooling Kay.

I believe that Michael was trying to fool himself by saying that. He certainly wasn't fooling Kay.