It appears to me that understanding the true communication between Godfather characters is like learning a seperate language for which there are few hints or guidelines.

When Vincent "sells his soul" to Don Antebello, he is watching for a "trap", which is Altobello's suggestion of betrayal toward Michael. Why? What sort of information would this give Altobello? Doesn't Vincent in fact give in somewhat by hinting that he does want the fortune Mary is heir to? (..."You're a very wise man, Don Altobello...").

And last, following this interchange, why is Vincent introduced to Don Luchessi during Vincent's first meeting with Altobello? It is as though Altobello gave away the family farm (his most powerful ally) before even trusting Vincent for more than 20 minutes.

I would love to understand the underlying subleties of this interchange.

Welcome Don Roberto, great question for your first post.

The Vincent - Altobello - Luchesse scenario mirrors the Luca Brasi - Sollozo - Bruno Tattaglia scenario. Go to the tattaglis ( go to Altobello ) and make them think that you are unhappy.

See the similarity here in that Michael wanted Altobello to think that Vincent was a traitor just like Vito wanted Luca to do with Tattaglia?

Vincent though, unlike Luca, was successful in that he was able to find out that Altobello was behind everything here. That he was not Michael's ally, but really his enemy. And the bonus for the Corleones was that in Vincent going to Altobello as if he was looking to betray Michael, Altobello not only revealed that he was really Michael's enemy, but also that he, Altobello, had the support of Don Luchesse.

Vincent, by successfully doing this, was able to confirm to Michael that Altobello and Lucchesse were both working against him.

Remember the line by Michael (paraphrasing here) : "Our true enemy has yet to reveal himself."

Altobello was Michael's true enemy.



Don Cardi

"Remember the line by Michael (paraphrasing here) : "Our true enemy has yet to reveal himself."

But of course right after he says this, in the midst of his diabetic stroke, he realizes that Altobello was probably behind the helicopter massacre. He screams out something like, "Altobello! You deceitful F**k!"

I agree in general with your parallel to the Luca ruse, but Michael's ruse is successful because it is far more cleverly contrived. The problem with Luca's attempt to "fish" out some information was that the pretext used to arrange a meeting with Bruno and the Turk was Luca's alledged dissatisfaction with and intention to break from the Corleones. On hearing of this supposed dissatisfaction, Tattaglia and Sollozzo knew immediately that it was a lie and that Vito was sending Luca out to extract information about the Turk; they did not believe that Luca, whose loyalty to Vito was "legendary" (I think this is the word used in the novel), would ever betray Vito. So they meet with him in order to kill him. Thus Michael instructs Vincent to appear offended at any suggestion of betrayal.

I wonder, as others have in this space, whether Vito possibly could have believed that Bruno and the Turk would not see right through his ruse. That is, some have speculated that Vito deliberately sent Luca off to the slaughter. (In the novel it is said that Brasi was the only person who could make the Don nervous, and that "[Brasi] had to be handled [by Vito] as gingerly as dynamite. ... [But] even dynamaite could be harmlessly exploded if the need arose." -- Did this need arise? Worth pondering, I think.)

I agree with 90caliber. The two ruses are very different, in that Vincent does not say he wants to switch allegiances, but rather asks for help in dealing with an internal problem. Michael surely learned from the Luca fiasco that an open betrayal would not be believed.

As for "our true enemy," it is clear that Michael does not mean Altobello or Zasa. In the not-so-subtle manner of GFIII, FFC earlier makes very clear to Michael and the audience that Altobello is in cahoots with Zasa ("The survivors made deals with Zasa." "Altobello" "He survived.").

I think Michael has already realized that the massacre and the Immobiliere deal are related. Since Zasa is too minor and Altobello unlikely to be well-connected enough in the Vatican to disrupt the deal, Michael knows there's someone backing them. As soon as he is well, he visits Don Tommasino to find out who.

I have always thought that Luca sealed his own fate by being stupid. My belief is that Tattaglia Jr. and Sollozzo suspected that Luca was deliberatly sent to them, however they did a little test. When Sollozzo offers Luca $50,000 for starters, Luca says "bene" and then Tattaglia extends his hand to Luca. Instead of shaking on the "deal" Luca demurs and reaches for his cigarettes. I think Luca, as a man of Sicilian honor would never shake hands on a deal that he knew was based on a lie. I think Sollozzo and Tattaglia understood this. It is after he refuses to shake Tattaglia's hand that he is stabbed and garrotted.

As for the comparison between this and the deal Vincent "made" I think DC's analysis is correct. I would add that Michael specifically warned Vincent not to betray him because "that's his trap." So when Altobello suggests that if Michael is out of the way the "girl inherits everything" (which isnt true btw, Anthony would have had half) ...Vincent tells him to leave her out of it. The only thing about that scene that doesnt make sense is that Luchese was right there. I agree with the poster who is troubled by the instant meeting between Vincent and Luchese (who Michael already knew was the only person powerful enough to have his feet planted in "both worlds"). I suspect this was just a matter of moving the plot along, but it is a flaw nonetheless.

Vincent, was thus able to confirm that Altobello was working for Luchese, and this cleared up the picture. Apparently the deal was never consumated, however because the night of the opera there is an exchange between Vincent and Altobello, where Vincent says something like "everything will be taken care of tonight." Of course Vincent meant something far different. But Bottom line, Vincent dropped the ball with "the twins" who, it turns out were not every bit as good as they looked.

Well, the whole idea that Luca would betray Vito was ridiculous. The history of their relationship was legend. That might have been another of Vito's foolishnesses.

"When Sollozzo offers Luca $50,000 for starters, Luca says "bene" and then Tattaglia extends his hand to Luca. Instead of shaking on the "deal" Luca demurs and reaches for his cigarettes. I think Luca, as a man of Sicilian honor would never shake hands on a deal that he knew was based on a lie. I think Sollozzo and Tattaglia understood this. It is after he refuses to shake Tattaglia's hand that he is stabbed and garrotted."

(It was the Turk who extended his hand to Luca.) I formed the same hypothesis about why Luca did not shake the Turk's hand, but I find it hard to beleive that if Luca shook his hand and accepted the money, the Turk would have thought Luca to have passed the test and trusted him henceforth. Luca was a dead man no matter what.

I have always believed that the reasoning behind Luca not shaking Sollozzo's hand is because he wants them to believe that he is honestly thinking about it (although, a bad acting job). I agree that Tattaglia and Sollozzo know from the instant of contact by Brasi, that it is a rouse. His loyalty could not be budged or questioned. but I don't really blame Vito for this mistake, as I think he was attempting to use this known fact to his advantage, as leverage for Luca to use to make the deal. but the Vincent "deal"... my oh my. I have always thought of Vincent as a mixture of Sonny's braun, Vito's charisma, and Michaels brains. Vincent was just much too sharp to fail in his attempt. And his loyalty was not as undeniable as one Luca Brasi

Yeah, Luca's not shaking Sollozzo hand manifests Luca's caualisness about the offer. He wanted to give the impression that he had to think about the offer. But, still, Vito sending him to the Tattaglia's was quite an error of thought and strategy. Of course, he probably didn't figure at all that Luca would be killed.

Well Vito knew he was sending Luca into the 'Lion's mouth' much like Mike does w/ Frankie when he sends him to negotiate w/ the Rosattos. Vito felt that Sollozo/Tattaglia's reaction to Luca would offer a hint as where this whole thing was going.

Vito knew it was a dangerous mission for Luca and that it would possibly result in Luca's death. But he was willing to risk this in order to get a idea of what Tattaglia's intentions were.

well, while I can understand where you're "coming from" with this POV, it seems hard to swallow that Vito would make such a large sacrifice just because he has some butterflies about this "Sollozzo fellow".

Well he had butterflies about the fact that he refused to enter this 'drug business.' Even if he did not have them concerning Sollozo AND Tattaglia.

You have to keep in mind that Santino's display of dissention at the meeting put Vito in an awkward spot.

He was in trouble and immediately played his ace(Luca Brasi).

The Corleone family ain't what she used to be and Sonny just burnt the house down. Vito may not have been desperate, but it was time to worry a bit if he's gonna reject this drug deal and deny political protection to a member of the five families.

EDIT:(He played his ace when he tried to bluff Luca's desertion)

Vito knew that Sollozzo was in with the Tattaglias, and he may have had a clue that the other families may also be involved in this operation, because putting drugs into the mix would have to be something alll the five or six families agreed on. I don't think he was as interested in "this Sollozzo fellow" as much as he was interested in finding out "what is underneath his fingernails"

Good point Don T. Finding out who else was involved was very important.

oh ok... that is a good point DonT

My point was that (and the novel is much, much more expressive of this than the film)noone was going to buy the story that Luca was unhappy with the Corleones which meant unhappy with Vito. No way. They all knew of his legendary loyalty to Vito. Why would Vito think for a second that they would buy it?

Sollozo's reaction to Luca would tell Vito much concerning the Turk's plan of action. If Sollozo and company had decided to kill Vito in order to place Sonny at the throne, then one of their first moves would be to strike Luca, who the don has now conveinantly served up on a platter. Even if Sollozo knows that Luca is bluffing and will never betray the Corleones, Turk would still not try and kill him unless he had plans to kill Vito. (Luca did not fear death, he only feared Don Corleone. A 'suicide mission' was no problem for Luca Brasi so long as it was for Vito.)

Plus, Sollozo knowing Luca is a bluff does not necessarily keep him from finding out what the Turk has under his fingernails.

Ice, I like your line of thinking about Sollozo having enough foresight to consider who should be on the "throne" of the Corleone empire...

Here is something else to consider with regards to the Luca matter:

1. Luca was expendable. The evidence for this is that Luca never expected to be invited to Connie's wedding by Don Corleone. Likewise, when Don Corleone was informed of Luca's request for a meeting during the wedding, Corleone asked "is this really necessary"? In my mind, this implies that while Luca may have been 'loyal', he was still just muscle - a soldier - and was expendable as far as Corleone was concerned. This is why I expect Corleone probably sent him off to the Tattaglias as a thermometer of Sollozo's intent.

2. Luca's death would tell Corleone immediately of Sollozo's intentions. Corleone had probably established a time to speak with Luca after Luca met with the Tattaglias. In fact, Corleone probably knew of how and when Luca was set to meet with Bruno and Sollozo; Corleone probably expected to hear from Luca shortly thereafter. If Corleone didn't hear, he would know the war was on. What Corleone didn't count on, I think, was getting whacked so quickly by Sollozo.

Assuming this line of reasoning is accurate, the question becomes: why didn't Corleone save Luca for war with the Turk? Certainly, his desire to kill for the Corleone's would have been a more desireable utility than his use as a temperature guage for Sollozo's intentions.

I'm not buying any of these explanations. Vito told Luca at the wedding that he was his most valued friend. Luca's loyalty to Vito was only eclipsed by Luca's danger to anyone else. There was no way that Luca was going to find out anything about Sollozzo's plans. Why in the world would Sollozzo tell Luca anything of value?

Ok - an alternate conjecture, then:
We know that before Luca met with the Tattaglia's that Don Corleone (herinafter "DC") had no inkling it was actually Barzini who was backing the Sollozo expansion. Is it possible, then, that DC was under the impression that the mere "pimp" Tattaglia would not have the guts or the mind to start a war by taking out "Luca"? This would seem like a plausible explanation to me. Barzini, on the other hand, was a much different adversary. (Also - and the weight of this conjecture is disputable - we know at a minimum Barzini probably saw Luca at Connie's wedding and thus may have had that much more exposure to the Luca-DC connection compared to the other Dons; Thus he may have had a slight advantage in considering Luca more of a threat or in considering Luca's appearance before Bruno T. that much more unbelievable).

Any thoughts?

As Vito said, Tattaglia's a P.I.M.P! He could have never out fought Santino. So ya, I think you are right. Once the war began Vito had to have known Tattaglia was not acting alone. Once Luca Brasi was killed it was clear Tattaglia had backing coming from elsewhere in the five families.

Well I'm not sure if you have read the book but Luca was the best of the best. He feared only one thing in this world, and that was disappointing his Don. Truly a unique character is Luca. The fact that his value was sooo high shows again how desperate Vito must have been to sacrifice him and dangle him over the 'lions mouth.'



Nice! I never really thought about it like that.
But it was no secret to any of the other Dons that Luca was Vito's personal bulldog.



The Turk could not have waged a war. Tattaglia would not have been enough backing, and if Barzini jumps in to fight an unprovoked war against Vito the other families would support Vito. So....they send an outsider(Sollozo) to whack Vito. It is Santino's response to this that starts the war. Otherwise, Sollozo would never have dreamed of fighting an actual war against the Corleones. Vito dispatching Luca would tell Vito what Sollozo's intentions were. If he intended on assassinating Vito, he would first do in Luca.

For arguments sake I will agree with you. Although the fact of the matter is that Luca staked out the Tattaglias for several months and could have found out information without directly hearing it from Sollozo.

Luca's role was basically that of a guinea pig. If Sollozo wanted war then he could not pass up the opportunity to kill Luca. An opportuniy that Vito handed him on a silver platter.

olivant, I'm not sure if you read (or even accept, for that matter) my assessment in a previous post but: "but I don't really blame Vito for this mistake, as I think he was attempting to use this known fact to his advantage, as leverage for Luca to use to make the deal"

Well, Ice, are you implying that Vito's POV is "If there's gonna be war, here's my general. Take him out so that we can hurry up and get this started???" I disagree. Vito didn't want ANYTHING to happen to Luca. He thought that the possibility of Luca failing (let alone the thought of getting killed) was slim to none. He wanted the info that Luca was to gain. I don't believe there was any subliminal objective by Vito in this matter.

Well, what it does show is the Don was slippin.

Ok - he was slippin', but I don't think he was senile. I think the best explanation is that at the time, Corleone still believed it was actually the mere "pimp" Tattaglia involved with Sollozo, and that Tattaglia would never have the balls to take out Luca. If Corleone had known it was Barzini at the time, it would have been a totally different story.

yes, I agree DonR. That is a good point to add.

As we have argued with you before I don't so much think he was slippin. Yes, the security around him was slipping and thats why he got hit, but the Don was getting older and could not micromanage such things as he used to. He had to rely on others around him to handle those things and they did a horrible job doing it.

I will say that neither Michael nor Vito ever make a mistake in either movies concerning the business. The drama in the movies comes with the troubles in their personal lives. I think Puzo makes it clear that they are both flawless when it comes to being a don. Thus, the consequences of dispatching Luca Brasi would have been foreseen and predicted by Vito.

I dont know...Brasi was his number one hit man, and I do not think anyone would confuse him with a MENSA candidate. Why wouldn't Vito send someone with more smarts and who was more expendable...maybe Clemenza or Tessio.