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3 Figure Set: Michael, Vito, Sonny

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Question about end of GF? #5444
12/31/03 10:17 AM
12/31/03 10:17 AM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14
Louisville, KY
cmascagni Offline OP
Wiseguy
cmascagni  Offline OP
Wiseguy
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 14
Louisville, KY
When Michael confronts Carlo, I think he already has decided that Carlo was defintely responsible for Sonny and is to answer for it. If I am correct in that belief, why does Michael care so much about who approached Carlo. He has already killed both, so to me it seems a moot point as to which one approached Carlo. Any thoughts?

Re: Question about end of GF? #5445
12/31/03 10:47 AM
12/31/03 10:47 AM
Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
MaryCas Offline
MaryCas  Offline

Joined: Apr 2002
Posts: 8,766
South of the Pinelands
Yes C. one of those moot points that makes for a good movie. At that point Michael did know from the Tessio-Barzini meeting and other indicators, and he was going to kill Carlo whether it was Tattaglia or Barzini or Cuneo or Stracci, but then we wouldn't have had that whole dramatic build up to Carlo putting his foot through the windshield.


Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
Re: Question about end of GF? #5446
12/31/03 10:48 AM
12/31/03 10:48 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
AppleOnYa Offline
AppleOnYa  Offline

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 8,224
New Jersey
Why shouldn't he care who approached Carlo just because ALL the Family Heads were now dead?

A man in Michael's position would want to know every detail possible of what's going on with his enemies, who's behind what, etc. It would have been a careless mistake to do away with Carlo without extracting that information from him.

That aside...Michael may have already known it was Barzini who approached Carlo. But the finality, the satisfaction of having this betrayal confirmed by Carlo, and then watching Carlo die himself may have been another thing Michael was after.

Apple


A wise and frugal government, which shall leave men free to regulate their own pursuits of industry and improvement, and shall not take from the mouth of labor the bread it has earned - this is the sum of good government.

- THOMAS JEFFERSON

Re: Question about end of GF? #5447
12/31/03 12:01 PM
12/31/03 12:01 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
plawrence Offline
RIP StatMan
plawrence  Offline
RIP StatMan
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 15,058
The Slippery Slope
There's a passage in the book--which I don't have in front of me at the moment--that talks about how even at that late date, Mike was still a tiny bit unsure about the extent of Carlo's involvement, and still needed that final bit of confirmation.

If no one else does this afternoon, I'll post the quote later.


"Difficult....not impossible"
Re: Question about end of GF? #5448
12/31/03 12:12 PM
12/31/03 12:12 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Plaw hit it. Mike needed proof beyond a reasonable doubt before he killed his brother-in-law. Here's how Puzo wrote it:

Michael was still not that confident of his right, still feared being unjust, still worried that fraction of an uncertainty that only a confession by Carlo Rizzi could erase.


.
Re: Question about end of GF? #5449
12/31/03 12:53 PM
12/31/03 12:53 PM
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,619
NJ
Don Marco Offline
Underboss
Don Marco  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Sep 2001
Posts: 1,619
NJ
I remember that in the book Tom looks at Michael and views him asking Carlo to confess as a sign of uncertainty with his decision that Vito would not have.


"After all, we are not communists"

Christopher Moltisanti: You ever think what a coincidence it is that Lou Gehrig died of Lou Gehrig's disease?

Tony Soprano: Yeah well, when you're married, you'll understand the importance of fresh produce.
Re: Question about end of GF? #5450
12/31/03 01:16 PM
12/31/03 01:16 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,534
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,534
AZ
Another possibility: Michael was trying to find out if other conspirators were involved. Carlo, in his relief in thinking he'd be spared, might have named others if others were involved.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Question about end of GF? #5451
01/01/04 05:31 PM
01/01/04 05:31 PM
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 417
Washington, DC
Valadius Offline
Capo
Valadius  Offline
Capo
Joined: Dec 2003
Posts: 417
Washington, DC
Yes, in the book Tom was a bit surprised by Michael's approaching Carlo and asking him, viewing it as a slight sign of weakness and something the Don would never have done.

Re: Question about end of GF? #5452
03/15/05 12:15 PM
03/15/05 12:15 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Michael knew it was Carlo, but he wanted to humiliate Carlo and make him confess to him with Hagen also present. If he was going to off his brother in law, he was only going to do it after he extracted that confession. Michael was very deft in getting it too. First he gains Calo's confidence by sending him back to the house after the Baptism. Then he terrifies him by telling him the names of all the people who are dead...watch the horror on Carlo's face as Mike recites the names. Then he rants at him about how "that little farce" he played with Connie could never "fool a Corleone." By now, Carlo is really in fear for his life, and Michael switches gears again, and offers him a drink, and tells him his punishment is banishment from the family business, and he makes some comment about making his sister a widow. Then he appeals to him not to insult his intelligence by confessing. He then uses a cross examination technique which basically lays an assumption into a question. Instead of saying "did you do it," he asks "who approached you [to do it]." This breaks Carlo who tells Mike it was Barzini.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Question about end of GF? #5453
03/15/05 12:50 PM
03/15/05 12:50 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline
goombah  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
Just as a sidebar: When Carlo gets in the car, Clemenza is in the backseat and soon thereafter kills Carlo. Was Carlo a) so distracted about having his life spared that he was not concerned who was in the backseat? b) more relaxed since he knew Clemenza and wouldn't feel as threatened, or c) would have been more apprehensive if an unknown (to Carlo) buttonman was in the backseat?

If Michael wanted to keep the ruse going just a bit longer, should the killer have hidden from Carlo's view until the car started moving? Given Clemenza's, ahem, girth, then maybe he was incapable of bending down and hiding. But certainly someone like Cicci could have.

Just what-iffing here...

Re: Question about end of GF? #5454
03/15/05 03:02 PM
03/15/05 03:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
JustMe Offline
Underboss
JustMe  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2004
Posts: 3,733
Quote
Originally posted by goombah:
If Michael wanted to keep the ruse going just a bit longer, should the killer have hidden from Carlo's view until the car started moving? Given Clemenza's, ahem, girth, then maybe he was incapable of bending down and hiding. But certainly someone like Cicci could have.
But actually there was no need of it... In fact Clemenza started to garrot him immediately, without ceremonies. Long before the car started moving.


keep your mouth shut, and your eyes open.
Re: Question about end of GF? #5455
03/15/05 07:44 PM
03/15/05 07:44 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
The quote that Plaw talked about and that SC posted from the book answers the question. But let's put the book aside for a moment and just go by what we see in the movie itself. In watching that scene I've always took it that Michael was not 100% sure that it was Carlo who set up Barzini. Michael twists the question to Carlo. If Michael had asked Carlo straight out " Did you set up my brother?" he would have shown his hand to Carlo, allowing Carlo to see that there was doubt in Mike's own mind and by seeing the doubt it would have given Carlo an opportunity to deny that he had set up Sonny, with nothing to lose by lying. But by Michael phrasing the question the way that he did to Carlo " Now who approached you, Barzini or Tattaglia?" it tells Carlo " I already know that YOU set my brother up, so there is no denying that, but now I need to know who approached you to set my brother up?" Asking it this way is not showing Carlo that he (Michael) has any doubts that Carlo set Sonny up. Therefore Mike does not let Carlo see his hand and that does not allow Carlo the opportunity to deny it. Phrased in tht manner it makes Carlo confess and at the same time it erases any doubts that Michael had in his own head.


Don Cardi cool



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Question about end of GF? #5456
03/16/05 01:58 AM
03/16/05 01:58 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,534
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,534
AZ
Michael had to know "it was Barzini all along," especially since his father came to that knowledge beforehand, and it was Barzini who invited Michael to the fateful meeting. So why did he ask Carlo? Perhaps a tactical move: Make Carlo think that by telling the truth, he'd be spared, and so he wouldn't put up a messy fight (or beg for his life) in the compound. Then he'd get in the car to the "airport," and Clemenza could garrot him, neat and clean.
Hell, what differenc


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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