When did he find out that fredo was the traitor? Alot of people say in the superman show. But by looking at mike face when they are having drinks and fredo say " why couldnt we spend time like this?" and michael looks at him all wierd. so when did michael actually find out?

This is always a good question. IMO, the key to Michael's attitude is found in the scene with Hagen after the Tahoe shooting:
When Michael tells him, "Right now, you're the only one I can completely trust," I believe he was saying that he didn't necessarily suspect Fredo, or Neri, or Rocco--but he couldn't completely rule them out. That's why he left Tom in charge, and didn't take Rocco and/or Neri with him on his trips to Miami, New York and Havana.

Michael gives Fredo several penetrating looks in Havana that I interpret as testing Fredo. In addition to the one you noted, he also gave Fredo a penetrating look in his hotel room when Fredo asked if anyone he knew was in Havana and Michael replied, "Johnny Ola, Hyman Roth..." He gave Fredo a real X-ray-eye look when, at the nightclub, he says, "I don't think you know Johnny Ola," and Fredo says, "No, we never met."

Michael put himself in grave danger by going to Havana to meet Roth, who, as the most powerful Gringo on the island, could have him squashed like a bug. He did so because he was driven to find out who the traitor in his family was. Though I can't prove it, I believe he asked Fredo to bring the $2 million so he could have opportunities to test Fredo (as in the above situations). Michael was clearly devastated when Fredo made his fatal slip-up at the Superman show. Obviously Michael didn't want to believe Fredo was the traitor--but he never completely ruled him out.

Thanks Turnbull. So basicall before the Superman show it was just all gueses.

I have to agree with TB (big shock). I think that Michael was suspiscious of Fredo, but wasn't sure until the slip at the Superman show. I also think that he was hoping that it WASN'T Fredo. All you have to do is look at his face and his reaction when he hears that Fredo had a long-standing association with Johnny Ola. Michael looks as if he's been punched in the gut. He's so very, very hurt when finds out for sure.

Michael knows for sure like Turnbull said when Fredo "meets" Ola and Roth in Havana.

TB and SB are correct. I think Michael suspected Fredo from the beginning but didn't want to believe it. In the boathouse scene when he makes Tom the Don, he makes the point that whoever did the hit botched it badly and that at this point he would be very scared. It is also in this scene when he says Fredo was stupid and weak. He didnt need to inform Tom of that, obviously (compare this to Vito when he said to Michael that he knew Santino would have to go through "all this" and he then says "and Fredo, well Fredo...." and the rest goes unsaid). This brings up two issues. First, did Fredo have a hand in killing the would be assassins at the Tahoe estate? Second did Fredo have a role in the blackmailing of Sen Geary?

Anyhow, I think Michael had a suspicion and there is no question he was testing him when he asked if he had ever met Johnny Ola. Then in the night club Michael goes out of his way to "introduce" Fredo to Ola and Fredo is terrified, and Ola tries to cover it. Michael had to have observed that. The scene at the Superman show confirms Michael's worst fear, and FFC demonstrates that by the background music played at the time and the fact that Micheal looks back at his body guard. The fact he would only have to shoot a look at the bodyguard tells me that Michael had already prepared some kind of pre-arranged code between them.

The first issue is probably the Number One unresolved issue on these boards. No one knows who killed the Tahoe shooters. Could have been Fredo, but there's no proof.
As for the second issue: When Hagen told Geary, "It's lucky that my brother Fredo runs this place," we have to assume that Fredo told Tom, and/or Michael, about his distinguished visitor. Hagen may also have been subtly threatening Geary, as in, "Yeah, Freddie Corleone runs this place. You know that name: 'Corleone,' as in 'Michael Corleone,' the guy with the oily hair and silk suits that you were shaking down recently."

Turnbull, your points are interesting, and I agree that the questions probably cannot be answered, however I think as to the Tahoe shootings there is a hint that Fredo may have killed the erstwhile assassins. Right after the boathouse scene, we see Deanna all hysterical screaming something about how "they" were right under her window. That would indicate to me that "they" may have used Fredo's house as some kind of staging area.

As for the house of ill repute, I think it is likely that Fredo would not be smart enough to have realized that Geary was a customer, go to Tom, tip him off and then not try to grab some credit for it. Don't forget by now he was in Johnny Ola's pocket. I think your theory is more plausible...namely that Tom wanted Geary to know he was on Corleone territory and that he would put out the cover story that the Senator was spending the night at his good friend Michael Corleone's home. One of the things that bothers me about that scene is that Neri sort of sticks his nose outside of the bathroom and Tom has to shoot him a dirty look to make him keep hiding. Shouldnt Neri know better?

How did the assasins enter the compound in the first place. It is guarded by a lots of men. This makes me wonder if more than one person was involved in the murder attempt(on michael), fredo alone could not have hidden the assasins. But on the other hand, I think FFC and Puzo thought that these are not important to the story and maybe even they did not necessarily assign any character to be behind the murder of assasins.

The "Who Killed The Assassins?" question comes up every three or four months or so.

Here are four recent discussions that we've had on the subject.

I'm always delighted to hear the theories of new members, as I'm still waiting to hear one that fits all the facts.

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004607#000003

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004613#000000

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004713#000004

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.net/ubb/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004380;p=1

Oh, but it is so easy... Some trainee who was trusted with their make-up and did it badly. He just didn't want anybody to see it. So he cut their throats and threw them in the water... And FFC, who obviously had a grudge for Mike and was the one who let them in the compound, of course pretended not to notice anything... Fits?

Thanks P lawrence, defender of our dwindling civil liberties for those links. Very interesting.


I would posit that when Johnny brought "his men" to the estate he may have had three of them hide out at Fredo's place, and then he left them behind to do the hit. It is possible the two shooters who were found dead in the ditch were killed by the third man who somehow got away. Obviously Fredo knew something was up, but as he said he didnt know it was going to be a hit. I would think it would be easy for the third man to kill the shooters and then get off the estate by boat in short order. This is probably more likely than Fredo doing the killing.

Ah.....Another theory to poke holes in. Life is beautiful

How many "men" did Johnny arrive with? It's not like there were 15 of 'em, so nobody would have noticed that three stayed behind (Watch the scene where Rocco is trotting down to the pier to meet Messrs. Ola and Company).

With Michael's guards, buttonmen, et al running around, how did #3 kill #s 1 & 2 and leave them so neatly in the ditch without being seen or heard?

If #3 got off the estate by boat, how did all of the guards, etc. miss that?

The "#3 killed #2 and #1 Theory" belies Michael's statement about them being killed by "someone close....someone inside". I believe we are meant to take that statement as by Michael as correct.

As I said in one of my posts in one of the other threads, one of the major themes in GF II is Fredo's treachery. The assasination plot was his major act of treachery, so how FFC and MP could have left such a major loose end is beyond me.

The only explanation which I find plausible is that we are deliberately led to believe that it was Fredo who killed them, and FFC and MP never realized that more than 30 years later there would be an internet with message boards and lunatics like us picking the whole damn thing apart. They just never regarded the question anywhere nearly as seriously as we do.

Theories may abound, but it will never be less than a major plot flaw which detracts tremendously from the overall quality of the film, IMO.

PL you mean to say those of us who spend hours on end discussing this minutae are lunatics?

There was so much going on that day, so many people coming and going, including caterers, musicians, etc., that Johnny could have slipped a few extras into the estate. I agree it is problematic that the two in the ditch are dead but we never hear and shots, but thats a problem if Fredo did it as well. I just dont think Fredo was ruthless enough to kill anyone. I dont see anywhere that Fredo ever made his bones.

I would say Micheal was thinking that it could be Fredo but he wasn't really sure. But in the superman scence it was confirmed and he knew for sure, you can tell by his expression of disappointment