Hello everyone,this is my first post,so this question is probably an old one,but here goes..in the film and book of the Godfather,Connie confronts Michael after her husband Carlo is killed for setting Sonny up..she also says it wouldnt have happened had The Don been alive..in the expert opinion of your good selves,was Connie right..or do you think The Don and Michael both knew what action was coming up for Carlo..and,would The Don have intervened in Fredo`s death?

Welcome to the board and great question. With most all aspects and details of the films being addressed, I really don't remember this ever being asked before. Off the top of my head, I would suggest that Vito had a greater knack of "reading people", and would have forseen the problems Fredo and Carlo could have caused and nipped things in the bud, plus he would have had more control over Sonny and not allowed him to somewhat run wild. Remember Vito was recuperating when Sonny was whacked, and for all intents and purposes was not able to handle the everyday activities of the family. He also made it know that he wasn't to be let in on the family business, he just said to let him "make a living" He also knew Fredo was weak, and would have kept him running mickey mouse clubs and making the airport runs . Mike was very intelligent, but lacked the skills his father had in dealing with problems. Vito knew it was in his best interest to deal with Barzinni, Mike just elimanated him.

Regarding Carlo, one of the reasons that Don C. turned over the reigns of the family to Michael was that he felt that he was unable to take two actions which he thought necessary;

The breaking of the peace, since he gave his word that he would never seek revenge for the killing of Sonny, and the killing of Carlo, his daughter's husband, which would leave his grandchildren as orphans.

Don Vito Corleone could never have murdered the husband Carlo of Connie, as when Carlo started to beat her, he didn't intervene then, as he felt it was not his place to intervene in their marriage. Fredo wouldn't have betrayed the family if Don Vito Corleone was alive, as Fredo would feel that even though Mike is running the family, that Vito was still taking care of him, as Fredo didn't like the fact that Michael was the head of family and took care of him since Fredo was older.

why wouldnt vito intervene if the consequences were his organizization and some of his family members?

I think the main reason Vito was turning over the reins of the family is because he knew he was aging, and not physically up to handling the everyday affairs of the family. Of course he was still able to be a consultant [consignilior] to the Don. If you notice Mike didn't really start putting his plans till Vito passed on. I would imagine that he knew his father would never condone his actions, and would really put the cobwash on all his plans.

I think that this is a great topic and one that can be seen from many different angles. True the Don didn't believe in interferring with Connie and Carlo but at the same time I don't think he knew fully what was going on. I feel as though he may not have known that the beatings were as bad as they were. Secondly had the Don been healthy he would have seen Carlo setting up Santino a mile away, that was one of his greatest abilities to size up his opponents quicker than they could him. As for Fredo... poor Fredo he got the shit end of the stick and its sad but had the Don been alive I don't think that Fredo would have betrayed. For fun lets say he would have anyway... well that would have been interesting to see and I think that the Don would handle it a lil differently by in the end no killing Fredo but rather detaining him or sending him off to Sicily never to be allowed in on the family details again. But I guess we'll never know

At the very end of the novel, Kay leaves Michael, and Tom, on his own, goes to New Hampshire to try and get her to come back.

He talks to Kay, and in an attempt to justify Michael's actions, says the following:

"...what if the Don, a great man, couldn't bring himself to do what he had to do, avenge his son's death by killing his daughter's husband? What if that, finally, was too much for him, and he made Michael his successor, knowing that Michael would take that load off his shoulders..." italics mine)

Also, I think Vito condoned Michael's actions 100%. In fact, there is a reference somewhere (book or film, I'm not sure which) that in fact they planned everything together.

It was just that Vito couldn't break the peaace because he swore he wouldn't, and he couldn't bring himself to carry out the execution of Carlo.

if only apollonia didnt die..........

You can say that again Don Pope. I would also like to add this. To people who think the Don would permit his daughter being beaten then you have no sense of what the Don meant. He has a sentimental weakness for all his children and if one of them were being hurt.... well lets just say you wouldn't live to tell about it. Carlo would have been good and dead if the Don was healthy no one could disagree with that. And if your thinking of pointing out the conversation at the dinner table when Mama Corleone tells Santino not to intefer. Well thats an arguement and its Mama not THE DON.

I beg to differ.

From the novel (pp 238-239 30th anniversary paperback edition):


"The first time Carlo beat Connie up, she ran home to tell her parents, but returned suprisingly meek. Finally she told Carlo the results of her visit with her parents. They had been unsympatheic. She asked her father to speak to Carlo, but he had refused. "She is my daughter" he said, "but now she belongs to her husband...Go home and learn how to behave so he will not beat you".

Connie asked her father "Did you ever beat your wife?" "She never gave me reason to" was his reply.

"But the Don had not been so unsympathetic as he pretended". He had Carlo watched, but felt he could not interfere. His thought was "How (could you) expect a man to discharge his husbandly duties to a wife whose family he feared? It was an impossible situation, and he dared not meddle"

When Connie became pregnant, he was convinced he was right. When she hinted that she may want a divorce, Don C. became angry with her, saying "He is the father of your child.What can a child come to in this world if he has no father?"

So I guess Don C. was sympathetic to Connie's plight, but with his "old world" views about marriage and family, he apparently felt his hands were tied.

Yeah plwarence, that's what I'm talking about. Debate over... well not really since I know some of you will continue to argue.

plawrence i stand corrected i've read the book but its been awhile.

From what I understand, in the "old world" Italian culture, the man is more or less lord and master of the family, and the wife usually assumes the more subservant role, such as Vito's wife did. My question then is, "how much abuse would be considered acceptable by the don to his daughter? I think not too much. Seeing a crying daughter is one thing, but actually seeing how bad it was, such as we saw in the film is another. I can't believe that Vito would sit still for that abuse on his daughter.

Thanks for all your replies..i appreciate them..i`d like to think that Don C knew what Michael was going to do to Carlo.i just couldnt see Don C letting that go.

I think that Don C. knew everything Michael was planning.

I think Vito would not have stopped Micheal from taking out Carlo. He knew Carlo was a target and allowed it.

What really makes me feel uneasy in the novel was the fact that Vito corleone allowed for his daughter to get beaten. For him to say that to his daughter makes me believe that he is careless. Screw the old Italian heritage to not intervene. I mean he should have interfered and reasoned with Carlo. You just don't turn your back like that.

Two things that puzzle me about Don Vito..How could he allow such a devoted guy like Luca Brazi go in on a death mission w/Tataglia? Also, why didnt he see thru Carlo. If you notice the scene where he gives Carlo some responsibility and takes away the consiglieri responsibility from Tom, Carlo says.."Thank you, Papa"..and Don Vito says "Im happy for you Carlo.." But notice Mike's expression...it says to me, Carlo is a snake that can't be trusted and he may have had a hunch at that point he was in with someone on Santino's death..Any opinions?

Good questions, I can't answer your second, but I can answer the first. Luca Brasi was considered in his own class of killers, no one could touch Brasi and he was feared by all in the underworld. Don Corleone knew Brasi would never betray him either and warn Sollozzo that Don Corleone knew of his plans. Luca Brasi could kill a lot of enemies alone and Brasi was qualified for this job, though the Don made an erorr thinking they can trick Sollozzo into revealing his true intentions.

1. The Don didn't consciously send Luca on a suicide mission (as Michael did Rocco in GFII).
The Don never expected Sollozzo and Tattaglia to try to kill Luca and himself. He seriously underestimated Sollozzo.
2. The Don never trusted Carlo. In his study at Connie's wedding: (Tom): Your new son-in-law, do we give him anything important? (The Don): Give him a living but never discuss the family business with him. The later scene, "I'm happy for you, Carlo," was the Don acting on the advice that Michael quoted in GFII: "Keep your friends close, but your enemies closer." He wanted Carlo to feel secure--so that Michael could whack him.

So what you are saying is The Don knew about Carlo having a part in the death of his son?

I am absolutely sure that Vito knew that Carlo had set up Sonny. The Don was a master at anticipating his enemy's next move - look at how he knew Barzini would come after Michael through Tessio's betrayal.

Another thing: look at how bitter Carlo is for not being included in the family business. When Sonny & the rest of the Administration want to talk to Vito after coming home from the hospital, Carlo is left out:
Carlo is visibly uspet about what just transpired, especially towards Connie:

Making Carlo feel secure after Sonny's death was a stroke of genius. By being Michael's "right hand man," Carlo believed that he now was an important part of the Corleone family. As we all know, this was the ultimate kiss of death for Carlo.

So basically, it was known between Mike and Don Vito, but the audience was kinda left out to draw their own conclusions

Remember, the Don was Mike's first Consigliere... he HAD to know everything Mike was doing.

Valadius is correct the Don was in on everything but he had to be dead for it all to go right. So it was planned very carefully untill the day he died. Remember in the garden Michael says "I took care of it" and "I can handle it" thats just to let the Don know hes done everything and listned to everything the Don has said.

Well Michael was very picky when commiting murder. everything had to be right. I dont think that the Godfather had the heart to kill his own son in law. Michaek proboblly felt uncomfortable and had the idea that his father would not have aproved of him killing Carlo. So he waited until Vito died. He did this once again when it came to Freddy's death. He waited for Mama Corleone to die until he had killed Fredo. Except this time he did it because he loved his mother, and didn't wait to see her suffer the loss of another son. So he waited for her death until he killed Fredo.

It is quite obvious that Michael knew, almost from the moment it happened, that Carlo set up Sonny.

"Come on...did you think that farce you played with my little sister would fool a Corleone?"

Simply meant, he knew all that was going on, Michael did.

And as stated in the posts above...Don Vito was indeed Mikey's consigiliere, therefore, he knew whatever Michael knew. However, because of the deal he made with the heads of the Cinco Familias, Don Vito could not break his word...

"I swear on the souls of my grandchildren, I will not be the one to break the peace we have made here today."

Therefore, it had to be left in Michael's more than capable hands to deal with Carlo upon the demise of Don Vito.

"I'm happy for you Carlo" merely meant..."Keep your friends close but your enemies closer."

"Only don't tell me you didn't do it. It insults my intelligence!"

Something just struck me as pretty horrifying as I read the last few posts... did the Don actually somehow kill himself? That the meeting in the garden where Michael tells the Don everything's been taken care of is a pre-planned signal for the Don to die, so that their plans could be put into effect? It certainly sounds like it has the Don's shrewdness written all over it, but I don't know...