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Hyman Roth connection... #21833
02/16/05 09:19 PM
02/16/05 09:19 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 151
Michigan
Lollie Offline OP
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Lollie  Offline OP
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Posts: 151
Michigan
I don't understand the whole storyline behind Hyman Roth and his relationship with the Coreleone's and the other families.

Obviously, Hyman Roth had some "less than upright" dealings with Vito and Vito's son, Michael prior to Vito's death. I'm not sure at all what Roth's whole deal was with Michael after Vito dies. Then, Vito dies. I'm not sure what happens after that. I can tell that Roth and some of his other mafioso friends join up to increase their hold. But, then we come upon all these various deals with Roth supposedly wanting to kill Michael, and then Michael tells sometone else that it was ALFFREO who wanted him (Michael) dead, and on it goes. So, Even thougth I'vd seen this movie many many times, I'm confused as to what the real situation is between Roth and Michael. What was the real agreement between them? What was the deal they were ready to jump on together even despite Cuba's unsteady government? Why was Roth upset that Michael's 2 million didn't get to the island? Why did Michael pull out of the deal with Roth at the last moment? What was the critical point which made Michael give the "go ahead" for the death of all those people?

As I said, it "seems" to me that Michael and Roth had made some initial plans of some kind. But something changed those plans. I want to know if anyone knows what those initial plans were and why they were changed.

The next question I have is how the heck was Fredo involved in all of that? When Fredo and Mike were sipping drinks in Cuba together, Fredo said something to Mike about: "Mike, I was mad at you." And then later when Mike was asking Fredo if there was anything he could give Mike to help him in the trial, Fredo said, "They said there would be something in it for me." What did he mean in both these situations? Johnny Ola called Fredo early in the night one night to ask Fredo about the Rosato brothers. What was it about them? confused Why did Fredo get upset? Why was Fredo afraid to let Michael know that he knew Johnny Ola?

These questions have plagued me for yeas, and yet I had no one to ask!! confused But, as confused as I was, I still enjoyed watching the darn movies! Talk about a dedicated fan, right?

I would appreciate any help anyone could give me in these areas. Thanks a lot!


~~ Lollie grin smile tongue confused


"Sono una roccia; Sono un'isola...una roccia non ritiene dolore; un'isola non grida mai."
Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21834
02/16/05 10:19 PM
02/16/05 10:19 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
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The Ravenite Social Club
Lollie -


In a deleted scene in GFII we are introduced to Hyman Roth when he is a kid. The scene takes place right after The Landlord, Senior Roberto, leaves Vito's ( DeNiro ) office.

Roth actually worked for Vito as a mechanic and eventually did business with Vito.

Roth, through Johnny Ola used Fredo to set up Michael for the attempted hit on Michael in Tahoe. Obviously Ola also used Fredo to find out various information.

In one scene we see Michael introduce Fredo to Johnny Ola, with Fredo claiming that he never met Ola. Then later on in Havana, they are watching the show and Senator Geary asks Fredo how he knew about this club, and Fredo replies that Johnny Ola brought him here once before. "...Knows these places like the back of his hand..." It is at that moment that Michael realizes that Fredo was the one who set him up for the attempted hit because earlier Fredo had told Mike that he NEVER met Johhny Ola!


Here is an explaination by our esteemed Turnbull:
On November 23rd 2004, Turnbull writes :


"Here is an essay I've posted many times on this subject:


Many Godfather fans are put off by the complexity of the Michael Corleone/Hyman Roth war. They don’t understand why two gangsters with such apparently close ties try to kill each other, even while they’re forging ties to help each other’s businesses. They can’t figure out the twists and turns in Cuba. And they’re completely baffled by the famous line, “Michael Corleone says hello,” uttered by Carmine Rosado as he’s about to garrote Frankie Pentangeli.

The plot, admittedly complicated, can be made understandable if the viewer keeps in mind one over-arching fact: though Michael says to Fredo, "Roth wants me out," Michael is the one who wants Roth out. Roth and Vito Corleone had been partners, but only in the Prohibition-era booze business, as Roth pointedly reminds Michael several times. But Michael had been greedily horning in on Roth's Western gambling empire even before Vito died. The first business deal we see Michael involved in when he returned from Sicily was to push Moe Green, Roth's best friend, out of his Las Vegas hotel; later he had Moe killed because he resisted. By late 1958, when we first meet Hyman Roth, Michael has moved his entire operation to Lake Tahoe, owns three hotels in Nevada, and is about to force Meyer Klingman out of a fourth hotel, owned by Roth and the Lakeville Road Boys. And it's obvious that Michael has designs on Roth's Havana gaming empire. Small wonder Roth feels threatened!

Roth has been buying time by pretending he's a kindly elder statesman, in the twilight of his years, who regards Michael as his surrogate son and heir. But he's plotting all along to kill Michael—there isn’t room for both of them. With that roadmap before us, let’s retrace The Great Michael Corleone/Hyman Roth Fandango:

1. Roth decides to kill Michael at Anthony's First Communion party because he knows Frank Pentangeli will be there, contentious over the Rosato Brothers, whom Michael and Roth favor over Frankie. Thus Frankie has the perfect motivation to kill Michael--and will make the perfect fall-guy for the crime.
2. The assassination attempt against Michael fails. But when Michael visits Roth in Miami, Roth is heartened that Michael, as he expected, blames Frankie for the attempt. He promises to kill Frankie (“Frank Pentangeli is a dead man”), and even asks Roth's permission (“You don’t object?”)! Ah! Roth sees a silver lining in the cloud of the botched assassination: Michael will kill the obstreperous Frankie without his having to lift a finger or spend a dime! Heh-heh! BUT…
3. …instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatches him to settle his problems with the Rosato Brothers. Oh-oh! Roth knows Michael would never give a pass to a mortal enemy. Now it’s certain that Michael doesn’t suspect Frankie in the Tahoe attack—leading to the possibility that he does suspect Roth. What to do?
4. Roth orders the Rosatos to kill Frankie at their meeting. That way, he eliminates a Michael-ally before the two of them can cook up any mischief against him. To maintain his façade, Roth can always claim that he’s only done what Michael said he was going to do anyway. (Later, in Havana, Roth implies that Frankie’s assassination was tit-for-tat for Michael’s murder of Moe Green.)
5. The Frankie assassination fails when a policeman happens by and thwarts it. But both Michael and Roth are unaware that Frankie has survived because they’ve got bigger fish to fry. At the very moment of Frankie’s necktie party, Michael’s in Havana, ostensibly being crowned Roth’s heir-apparent and successor to his Cuban gambling empire. By accepting his invitation, Roth surmises, Michael is signaling that he really doesn’t suspect Roth in the Tahoe violence after all. And, as the most influential gringo in Havana, Roth can have Michael squashed like a bug. The fly has come to the spider, Roth figures.
6. What Roth doesn’t know is that Michael has known all along that Roth was behind the Tahoe attempt. So, it doesn’t take clairvoyance on Michael’s part to figure out that the offer to him to be escorted home from the New Year’s Eve party at the Presidential Palace in a military car, for his “protection,” is in fact a ticket to a one-way ride. Doesn’t matter. Michael has made his plans: “Hyman Roth will never see the New Year.” BUT, what Michael doesn’t know is that the man he’s telling this to—brother Fredo—has betrayed him to Roth! Seems like both Michael and Roth have been having a contest to see who’s dumber.
7. Later that evening, at the Superman show, Fredo—the All-Time Stupid-Pill Champion—foolishly reveals his betrayal. Michael is crushed, but he recovers quickly and gives the nod to his bodyguard: Kill Roth and Johnny Ola right now!
8. The bodyguard gets into Roth’s suite and strangles Ola. But, in a stroke of luck (pun intended), Roth has suffered a stroke and is being removed by medical attendants. Foiled, the bodyguard follows him to the hospital. With his big black hat, heavy black sweater and black pants in the tropical heat, and clutching a wilted bunch of mangy flowers, the bodyguard might be expected to stand out like a sore thumb. But this is fun-loving Havana on New Year’s Eve, and nobody notices him. What’s more, Roth is being attended by only one nurse, who providentially slips away for a celebratory glass of bubbly. The coast is clear for the bodyguard to finish his job.
9. Meanwhile, Michael, with Fredo in tow, shows up at the Presidential Palace, both to maintain decorum and to establish an alibi while his bodyguard does his dirty work. Fredo’s been busy all day with his hosting-and-pimping duties for Michael’s guests, and has been under Michael’s watchful gaze. Now he notices that Roth and Ola are among the missing. He finally manages to slip away (“I’m gonna get me a real drink…”), and notifies one of his Cuban contacts that he met in an earlier trip (Fredo’s been to Cuba before: remember, “Johnny Ola brought me here”).
10. The Cubans react with alacrity: an elite-looking formation of military intelligence or police arrives at the hospital, double-timing all the way, and kills the bodyguard in the act of smothering Roth, just in the nick of time. Roth, who deserves the sobriquet “Lucky,” even more than Charlie Luciano, survives.
11. The New Year is cheered in at the Presidential Palace. Michael reveals his knowledge of Fredo’s betrayal with the bacio da morto on Fredo’s lips. Fredo panics. Michael’s plan rolls into action: His Cuban driver is waiting outside the Presidential Palace in his ’57 Mercury Montclair, and a chartered airplane is warming up, ready to fly Michael out of Cuba. Michael attempts to lure Fredo out with him, but Fredo bolts. Michael escapes Cuba, presumably with his $2 million in a suitcase intact.
12. Nine-Lives Roth not only survives the murder attempt, he also recovers ok from his stroke, and gets out of Cuba, presumably with help from the military who rescued him. But he might as well be dead, or so it seems: He’s lost everything in Cuba, Johnny Ola’s gone, and his war with Michael is out in the open—and he’s been defeated? Or has he?
13. Roth has an ace up his sleeve: He’s found out that Frank Pentangeli is alive! He immediately reaches for his ally, Questad, the counsel to the Senate Investigations Committee who “belongs to Roth.” Questad tells the committee that they can use Frankie to trap Michael Corleone. The committee members, greedy for publicity, go for it. The chairman, working through the Justice Department, importunes the New York City Police Department to keep Frankie’s survival secret, and to turn him over to the FBI. Everyone else thinks he’s dead.
14. The committee produces its “star witness,” Willie Cicci. Senator Geary, Michael’s putative ally since the brothel murder put his cogliones in Michael’s pocket, asks Cicci a question that’s seemingly helpful to Michael: “Did you ever get a direct order from him [Michael]? Or was there always a buffer?” “No,” replies Cicci, “I never talked to him.” Aha! Michael relaxes: the committee has labored and produced a mouse. They haven’t got anyone who can directly implicate Michael in a crime. Thus fortified, Michael decides not to invoke his Fifth Amendment privilege, and denies all the committee’s accusations under oath.
15. Bada-Bing! The committee drops Frankie on Michael. Now they don’t have to prove that he committed any of the crimes they accused him of, nor does any court of law have to put him on trial for those crimes. They’ve got him on five counts of perjury! (actually four, if you take into account that Michael didn’t lie when he denied “ordering the murders of the heads of the Five Families in 1950,” because it really happened in 1955). The penalty for lying under oath is five years on each count. Looks bad for you, Michael. BUT…
16. …Bada-Bing! Michael produces Frankie’s brother, Vincenzo. Frankie, shamed, changes his tune: the FBI made him a deal, so he made up a bunch of stuff about Michael, but “it was all lies, all of it.” The committee adjourns, discomfited. Vincenzo returns to his two-meal town in Sicily. Frankie, his credibility as a witness against Michael destroyed forever, gets to spend the rest of his life on an Air Force base, at taxpayers’ expense—until Michael, through Tom Hagen, makes him a final offer he can’t refuse. Michael wins!

But, what about Carmine Rosato’s famous line as he was garroting Frankie: “Michael Corleone says hello”? Why would Carmine utter that line to a guy who was only seconds away from death—unless he intended him to live? Doesn’t it prove that Roth had planned for the New York cop to come in and foil the “murder attempt,” so that Frankie would live to indict Michael?

In a word: No. Not even Roth was clever enough to have bet his life on a split-second-timed plot to turn Frankie against Michael. Why would he even try, when he already had Michael in his killing-bottle in Havana? The simplest explanation is one that has been uncovered by Godfather scholars in an interview with Danny Aiello, who played Carmine Rosato. Aiello admits he ad-libbed the famous line, and Francis Coppola, for some reason (probably inadvertence), permitted the ad-lib to remain in the film, to the eternal bafflement of Godfather fans. But it’s also possible that Coppola, the most careful of directors, allowed it to remain because it fit the plot, even though Carmine intended to kill Frankie all along. “Michael Corleone says hello” was intended not for Frankie—but for Richie, the bartender, whose ginmill was being used to set up Frankie.
It’s obvious that Richie is a “civilian,” not a Made Man, and he’s nervous as hell about his bar being used for a murder (“Carmine, NO, not HERE!” he screams after the cop enters and Rosato draws his gun). Carmine knows that Richie might be squeezed by the cops investigating Frankie’s murder. Richie would be too fearful of Carmine to identify him as the killer. Still, as a civilian, Richie is not bound by the code of omerta. So Carmine hands Richie something he can give the cops so that Richie can get off the hook: “The murderers said, ‘Michael Corleone says hello.’ ” That line would set the police after Michael, and would be picked up by the press-- another nail into the coffin of Michael Corleone’s “legitimacy.” Clever Roth

- Originally Written by Turnbull


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Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21835
02/17/05 06:50 AM
02/17/05 06:50 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
^ That Turnbull will do anything to build up his post count. lol


.
Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21836
02/17/05 10:12 AM
02/17/05 10:12 AM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
Mignon Offline
Mama Mig
Mignon  Offline
Mama Mig

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
In Turnbull's point #2 why does Michael ask Roth's permission to kill Frankie?


Dylan Matthew Moran born 10/30/12


Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21837
02/17/05 10:48 AM
02/17/05 10:48 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by Mignon:
In Turnbull's point #2 why does Michael ask Roth's permission to kill Frankie?
As Michael told Frankie, he wanted Roth to be "relaxed, confident that our deal is still good." So when Michael was with Roth, he made Roth believe that he thought Frankie was behind the shooting--and that Michael still wanted their deal to go through. Michael pretended to be humble in Roth's presence. When he said, "Frank Pentangeli is a dead man...you don't object?" he was reinforcing that he thought Frankie was the Tahoe perp, and also "checking" with Roth so that his supposed vengeance on Frankie wouldn't upset their deal. Clever Michael!
BTW: He was just as clever with Frankie. In that brilliant scene in Frankie's study (Pacino's best in GFII, IMO), he reduces Frankie to a quivering jelly by shouting about the Tahoe attack. Then, when Michael finally lets on that he thinks Roth did it, Frankie is so relieved he practically passes out. "I want you to help me take my revenge," Michael says. Frankie, blissfully relieved, says, "Michael... anything!" Then Michael drops his bomb: "Settle these problems with the Rosato brothers." It was a win/win for Michael: He knew that Roth backed the Rosatos, and that Frankie would put himself in mortal danger by meeting with them. If the meeting was successful in settling their differences, it'd be one more thing Michael didn't have to worry about. If (as he probably expected) the Rosatos attacked Frankie, it'd be more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe attack. It was Michael at his most Sicilian-cunning. wink


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
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Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21838
02/17/05 10:52 AM
02/17/05 10:52 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,531
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by SC:
^ That Turnbull will do anything to build up his post count. lol
Actually, SC, I'm trailing badly because my post count fell off when I was in AZ for a couple of months (dial-up connection--big disincentive). Of course, your post gave me an excuse to reply, thereby driving up my count... tongue


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21839
02/17/05 02:25 PM
02/17/05 02:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
Mignon Offline
Mama Mig
Mignon  Offline
Mama Mig

Joined: Oct 2003
Posts: 19,066
OH, VA, KY
Thank you Turnbull for answering my question. I really enjoy reading your knowledge on the GF and other subjects. smile


Dylan Matthew Moran born 10/30/12


Re: Hyman Roth connection... #21840
02/18/05 01:41 PM
02/18/05 01:41 PM
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 151
Michigan
Lollie Offline OP
Made Member
Lollie  Offline OP
Made Member
Joined: Jan 2005
Posts: 151
Michigan
I don't know how you got all of that out of the movie, but it all sounds reasonable. I still don't understand why Roth wanted Mike out. If he wanted him out because he (Roth) wanted to run things his own way, he really didn't have to kill Mike to do that, right? I guess I just don't understand the criminal mind, huh?

This question probably belongs on another strand, but here goes anyway: Is it the Italians who really "run" the mafia? Is there one guy who is over all in the U.S. or is the U.S. divided into parts and there is one guy who is in charge of each part? And, is that what they mean by the "families"?

What is the difference between the mafia, mob, syndicate, and organized crime? Are they all basically one and the same? Or are they run differently by different ethnic groups? When I was living in Chicago, I was told that there was a Chinese syndicate located in Chinatown. I actually taught at a Chinese Catholic school in Chinatown! So, I would hear these things in school about gang leaders and the "Chinese mob".
This one kid whom I taught in 8th grade was very, very smart and was constantly doing "research" into various oriental mobsters in the Chicago area. He found out quite a bit, actually. Not only did he work for this company making new furniature


"Sono una roccia; Sono un'isola...una roccia non ritiene dolore; un'isola non grida mai."

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