I think one of the reasons these two movies (GFI and GFII) are so intriguing to me, and I watch them over and over and over again, is because I see something new each time I watch them. Not something new in the story, but something new in the characters and in their relationships with each other.

One thing that strikes me as I watch Don Vito is that his whole beginning starts out in a fight for his life. He loses his entire family--and even may have felt guilty for the death of his mother. And then what happens to him? He winds up as a 9 year old boy completely without family on a boat to a foreign land without knowledge of the language or culture. My own grandfather came from Italy when he was 9 years old in much the same way as Young Vito, only my grandfather had his father with him. (His mother died from complications of childbirth.)

So, here is this young boy who now is quarantined for having small pox, and then probably wound up living on the streets and getting help from the kindness of other Italians. My grandfather told me that there was GREAT PREJUDICE against Italians in Chicago when he came. He said that the city was primarily Irish and Germans. He was passed over time and time again in his job because of his ethnic background and didn't receive the promotions that he should have gotten in younger years until he was well into his 40's. My grandfather never complained--never felt that this country owed him anything. He was grateful to be here. Interestingly, he and my grandmother often told me that they had no desire to ever return to the "old country".

Anyway, as I watch Young Vito lose his job to AN ITALIAN BLACK HAND, yet showed his gratitude to the man who gave him his job, I began to feel even more admiration for him. The fact that he murdered Fanucci didn't seem to hit a "moral" nerve in me because I suppose back in those days in the Italian slums (which is what they really were), the Italians had no protection from the local police, and certainly had no protection from their own "Black Hands" who were, in my opinion, worse than the non-Italians who were prejudiced against Italians. So, there was sort of a feeling of justice in me when Fanucci was killed. And, as time went on, and Don Vito became stronger and more successful, he seemed to use his power to do good and to right the wrongs that had been perpetrated on his own people sometimes BY HIS OWN PEOPLE!

The love he had for his wife and children seemed to be the only thing that drove him to do the things he did. For each and every criminal act, it seemed like in his mind, it was the answer to an unjust act against the people he loved--either his family or his people.

It seemed to me that Vito's violence stemmed from his indignation of being treated unjustly by so many people. Even the favors he granted others on his daughter's wedding day all had some kind of answer to an unjust act. So, the audience easily finds admiration and love for this man. When good people balance the scales of justice, they don't lean on one side any heavier than the other. Because it is for JUSTICE's sake that some actions took place.

Even with the murder of his son, Sonny, the Don insisted on dealing with this evil act with forgiveness and a grace rather than to treat evil with more evil. Every single thing he did was done for a purpose.

Yet, we see his son, Michael who quickly rises to the position of Don and his character changes so drastically. Vito's character did not change. He was still the same man in the 1950's as he was in the 1920's. Michael continued on his path of revenge at every turn. And, his reasoning was that he had to get rid of his enemies. That is an impossible goal for there will always be one or two enemies. Instead of Michael's heart being softened as he grew older as in the case of his father, Michael's heart grew hard and cold. And, I think he even saw this in himself--or else why would he have asked his mother about "losing one's family"? He knew that he was on that road and fast. But, he didn't know how to stop it.

These two movies/stories are just filled with such intriguing studies on the humanness of each person. Each time I watch it, I see something new, something different, something interesting about these characters. And what's more, these movies are very true to life. These characters in the movies are not even the slightest bit pretentious or stray from the reality of human interactions.

Wow! They should really use these movies in university psychology departments, don't you think?

~~ Lolly

Lollie,

Here, this past thread might interest you.

http://www.thegodfathertrilogy.net/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=004930

Great post by the way. I am really enjoying you being such a contributing member to the boards. You've managed to bring some life back to this GF Trilogy Thread! Keep up the great posts!


Don Cardi

Don Cardi:

Why, thank you sir! What a nice thing to say! I'm enjoying yours as well! I am still trying to find a used copy of The Godfather book, but so far, they're still too expensive--wanting $26.00. That's too much for a used book. Do you know if the book is the same as GFI and GFII put together? Did Mario write each one separately like the movies? Isn't he deceased now? What is this GF4 supposed to be? Where can they really go now? GF3 was really very stupid, as far as I was concerned. I thought it took away from GFI and GFII. I suppose if it had been handled differently, or had a little more believeable plot, it would have been better. All that nonsense about the involvement of the Catholic Church hierarchy is so stupid and silly. With so many other avenues they could have taken, they picked a topic strictly because of its sensationalism. Too bad....

Did you ever notice that when one of those men would start to talk, they would start off by saying something like, "Bah..." and go on. My great-grandmother used to do that. She came straight from the old country when she was in her late 20's. So, she was a real "greaseball" as they used to say. Actually, she would most of the time say, "Em-bah...." or "Um-bah..." Notice that when Connie was mad at Carlo because he was going out after she had cooked him dinner, he tells her "bah fongool!!" And then she replies, "Ah, bah-fongool you!" I don't know what that meant but I used to notice it a lot when my relatives would talk to each other.

Again, thanks for the compliment!

~~ Lollie

You said it all, right there!

I tell people it means "goo(d) luck" (it's sarcastic but the people don't know that )


The meaning of that word was in a topic before, for the life of me I can't remember what people said it was though. I learned that it meant f-you, but others had different translations of it, guess it depends which part of Italy you are from

Try doing a search for "fongool" it might come up. Unless someone remembers the topic name (I don't, sorry)

The literal translation is "go get f*cked in the ass", but its used more generally as "F*ck you".

I may be wrong here, but I don't think they're two separate words... I think it's just the Sicilian pronounciation of the Italian word (and please excuse my language here ) vaffanculo. Which means exactly what SC said.

Btw, great posts, Lollie.

I believe Geoff's site to be correct on this - its actually 5 words that make up this expression: "Vai a fare in culo", buts its pronounced (here in America, anyway) "bah fangool".

Here's a link to the "x-rated" Italian expressions on Geoff's site:

X-RATED ITALIAN EXPRESSIONS (check out the word "culo")

Note the warning on this page - it is intended to be viewed by adults only (i.e. those members over the age of 18 only).

You cannot imagine how much I'm enjoing this thread!!!!! :

DMC, it'very unfair you tell people that "vaff@@@ulo" (or whatever you spell it, the meaning is the one SC so accurately explained! ) means good luck!!!

Ciao Lollie!

I understand very well what you grandma said!!! We in Italy (and very very typically here in Rome!!!) use to say "embè? (the one that you spell "em-bah", I believe)" in a very familiar/unformal context. It means something like: "so what?" or "what do you want from me?".

We very often use the one that you spell "Um-bah" (our "ambè") as well. It means sort of: "that's what I said, I was right, you're going to do what I tell you to do" or simply "well" -- but the meaning may slightly vary depending on the context.

VERY FUNNY TO ME!!!!! I like this Americanized Italian!!!!!

You know, Lollie, I don't agree with you in many things, but still it's great that you love the movies so much. It's difficult to explain everything if you didn't read the book. Check Amazon, maybe they have?
Anyway, there's 1 book, it covers the rise of Vito from GF2 and the first film. (And too many unfilmed... )
The Michael's part of GF2 was created for the film, as a sequel, mostly by Coppola, because Puzo didn't agree with him. But FFC was very much the master of the situation, and Mario finally had sort of given up, letting him do what he pleases with his characters. And to my opinion he did many things wrong.
Oh no, he didn't forgive anyone! He was waiting to prepare his vendetta in the best possible way. It was an insidious tactical retreat. "Revenge is the dish which tastes best when it's cold", would he say later. All he was dreaming about was to drown them all in their own blood.
Yes. And when you will read the book you will notice from everything Puzo writes about Michael that he inherited this quality. He would never do anything without sufficient purpose.
Michael didn't rise to the position quickly. He had to escape death, to fight, to prove to everyone that he deserved it. It was not so easy as it seemed in the movie. And I believe that his character was never changed. From beginning to end of the book. FFC changed it willfully without logic, that's the worst thing about sequels. But in the ORIGINAL part of the story it never changed. It revealed itself, sometimes in a way that he didn't expect himself. I wrote pretty much about it somewhere here.
The book really IS. Absolutely. The 1st movie - where it doesn't try to change the storyline of the book. (There are a few considerable changes that spoil the picture). The sequels, IMO, absolutely not.
Well, Puzo's book shows us even much more subtleties of human nature. But in Coppola's sequels the weakest part is to my opinion psychological truth. FFC miswrites characters and makes them act in a way perfectly unnatural for them. He misses exactly what Puzo created so carefully and masterfully - the inner logic of character, of purpose. What he makes of them may be consistent with his own private ideas, but it is not consistent with real life and the nature of human characters.

Lollie,

Barnes and Noble has had the GF paperback for sale right off it's shelves since the release of GF Returns. The book has both GFI and GFII storylines in it. Puzo only wrote one book and FFC based GFII Movie on parts of Puzo's GF book.

There is also a site that sells used books that I buy many of my books

http://dogbert.abebooks.com/servlet...mp;tn=The+Godfather&ima gefield.y=12

But as I said, if you are looking for a brand new copy, Barnes and Noble has them for sale right now.

http://search.barnesandnoble.com/bo...2D10%2D2005+06%3A26%3A30&cds2Pid=946


Don Cardi

I've told this story before, but this is a good time to repeat it:
Years ago, I was the editor of a company newspaper for a very large corporation that had more than 200 employee clubs and activities. One of the most popular was a bocce club, and the company built a nice bocce court on the grounds. Players formed a league, and in the finals, a group of WASP managers won out over a group of Italian-born groundskeepers and gardeners.
The captain of the WASP team sent me a news item for the company newspaper, announcing that his team had won. The name he gave his team was the "Fun Ghouls." I had the duty of telling this guy that I couldn't run his item because the name of his team was both a four-letter-type phrase and a mortal insult in Italian. You should have seen the look on his face--he had no idea what that phrase meant.

Turnbull:

Wow...you sure are a good person! I would have definitely gone ahead and used the name as is!!! What a hoot!! That would have been a riot and only the Italians would have known! Thanks for sharing!

~~ Lollie

Lollie, if you haven't read the book yet, get it from the library, I'm sure you would like alot of it.
This is very true. I've always thought that a large part of the change in Michael's character occured after Appolonia's (sp) death. You know he was affected when Sonny died, but as horrible as that was, it was always a possibility. But then for a complete innocent like Appolonia to be killed as well...I think that's why Michael became so obsessed with revenge, and it eventually destroyed him.