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Roth and the $2 million #36207
01/04/06 04:07 AM
01/04/06 04:07 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Michael’s $2 million wasn’t important to Roth at first, but it became overwhelmingly important later, and cost him dearly. Roth’s growing obsession with the $2 million provides interesting parallels to Michael’s obsessions. And the back-and-forth shows once again the marvelous richness and complexity of GFII’s plot:

Michael was obsessed with becoming “legitimate.” His strategy was to channel the Corleones’ domination of illegal gambling by becoming the biggest player in the only major legal casinos in the Western Hemisphere at that time: Nevada and Cuba—Roth’s territory. Michael had been horning in on Roth’s Nevada gambling empire ever since he returned from Sicily. His murder of Moe Green, Roth’s best friend, showed that he’d stop at nothing to achieve his goal. Roth correctly concluded that there was no room for both of them in the gaming industry.

Roth’s goal was to eliminate Michael. His strategy was to play on Michael’s obsession with becoming legitimate by pretending that Michael was his heir-apparent. Roth doled out bits and pieces of his empire to Michael, and promised more—all the while buying time for an opportunity to have him killed. Roth’s strategy was succeeding. Michael was on his way to becoming the biggest player in Nevada through his ownership or control of three casinos. When Johnny Ola told Michael that Roth wouldn’t object if he took over Klingman’s interest in another hotel that Roth owned, Michael clasped Ola’s knee and said, fervently, “You tell him that’s greatly appreciated”—a rare display of emotion for Michael.

The Havana deal would make Michael king of legalized gambling in the Western Hemisphere. Roth had tantalized Michael with the promise of his crown jewel prior to the Tahoe shooting. I’m guessing that Roth also told Michael, before the shooting, that he’d have to make a big payoff to Batista, the Cuban dictator. He may have mentioned $2 million, or he may not have put a price on it. At that point, getting the money wasn’t Roth’s primary goal. His goal was to buy time for an opportunity to whack Michael. The money for bribing Batista was a means for Roth to add credibility to his Havana-deal fiction: Michael would expect that a big bribe would be needed for him to get Batista’s permission. Michael may even have suspected that Roth would keep some or all of the money. But, so what? $2 million was a small price for him to pay to achieve his lifelong goal of total legitimacy.

Anthony’s party provided Roth with his golden opportunity to have Michael whacked. Roth no doubt was invited, but begged off, claiming ill health. But he knew that Frank Pentangeli would be there, contentious over Michael’s favoring of Roth and the Rosato brothers over him. So Frankie would have the perfect motivation for killing Michael, and would make the perfect fall guy for the crime—and Frankie would either be killed by the Corleones in revenge, or be forced to take it on the lam. Then Roth’s allies, the Rosatos, would take over Frankie’s operation in New York. Roth would have to forego the $2 million—but (in a parallel with Michael), so what? $2 million was a small price to forego to simultaneously get rid of Michael and Frankie, and put his own guys in charge of New York.

The failure of the Tahoe assassination attempt was a setback for Roth. But Roth was confident that Michael would blame Frankie for the attempt—and so (it seemed) he did when he called on Roth in Miami. But then, instead of killing Frankie, Michael dispatched him to settle his problems with the Rosatos. Now Roth knew that Michael really didn’t suspect Frankie in the Tahoe shooting—meaning that he might suspect Roth. So Roth had to accelerate the Havana deal: he counted on Michael’s greed for the Havana casinos to dull his suspicion that Roth was behind the Tahoe attack. Once Michael was in Cuba, Roth could squash him like a bug.

The problem was that Roth also got greedy—for the $2 million: he saw a chance not only to kill Michael, but also to make him pay for his own assassination. But his greed for the $2 million dulled his ability to see that Michael was already on to his game. As the most powerful gringo in Cuba, Roth could have arranged to have Michael whacked within minutes of his arrival in Havana—and he should have. But he waited for the $2 million. Michael, meanwhile, held out, knowing that as long as Roth lusted for the $2 million, he could buy time to figure out who the traitor was in his family. Just as Roth played Michael’s obsession with becoming legitimate, Michael was now playing Roth’s obsession with getting the money.

As soon as Fredo revealed himself, Michael gave the order to kill Roth. But Michael himself had waited too long. Roth’s stroke was a stroke of luck for Roth (no pun intended). Roth was able to survive, and strike back at Michael via the Senate hearing. The game went into extra innings…


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36208
01/04/06 11:01 AM
01/04/06 11:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline
goombah  Offline

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
As soon as Fredo revealed himself, Michael gave the order to kill Roth. But Michael himself had waited too long. Roth’s stroke was a stroke of luck for Roth (no pun intended). Roth was able to survive, and strike back at Michael via the Senate hearing. The game went into extra innings…
I assume you are meaning the true order to kill Roth that Michael gave to his bodyguard? Because Michael makes it appear to Fredo, as they talked earlier in the day at the outdoor restaurant, that plans were already underway to kill Roth ("Hyman Roth will never see the new year.") But wasn't this Michael's subtle way of testing Fredo to see if Fredo would pass the info on to either Roth and/or Ola? I say yes since Michael didn't have total confirmation of Fredo's guilt until they were watching the Superman burlesque show.

Michael certainly had his suspicions of Fredo when the two talked at the restaurant. I think this was yet another example of Michael's duplicity when he asked "Can I trust you with something Fredo?" Michael himself knew he couldn't trust Fredo, but was trying to outwardly demonstrate his apparent trust to Fredo. In other words, another example of keeping his enemy closer.

Re: Roth and the $2 million #36209
01/04/06 11:11 AM
01/04/06 11:11 AM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
Sicilian Babe  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
I've always been curious about the $2 million. As part of the overall whole, the $2 million was chump change. There was so much more at stake. However, as often seen, greed begets greater greed, and I think that is the only possible explanation for Roth's obsession. How often have we seen politicians and businesspeople toppled for a relatively small sum, in relation to the numbers involved as a whole?? Once you start stuffing your pockets, you just want to keep stuffing them.


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36210
01/04/06 01:41 PM
01/04/06 01:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by goombah:
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
[b] As soon as Fredo revealed himself, Michael gave the order to kill Roth. But Michael himself had waited too long. Roth’s stroke was a stroke of luck for Roth (no pun intended). Roth was able to survive, and strike back at Michael via the Senate hearing. The game went into extra innings…
I assume you are meaning the true order to kill Roth that Michael gave to his bodyguard? Because Michael makes it appear to Fredo, as they talked earlier in the day at the outdoor restaurant, that plans were already underway to kill Roth ("Hyman Roth will never see the new year.") But wasn't this Michael's subtle way of testing Fredo to see if Fredo would pass the info on to either Roth and/or Ola? I say yes since Michael didn't have total confirmation of Fredo's guilt until they were watching the Superman burlesque show.

Michael certainly had his suspicions of Fredo when the two talked at the restaurant. I think this was yet another example of Michael's duplicity when he asked "Can I trust you with something Fredo?" Michael himself knew he couldn't trust Fredo, but was trying to outwardly demonstrate his apparent trust to Fredo. In other words, another example of keeping his enemy closer. [/b]
To tell the truth, Goombah, I've always been a bit puzzled by this sequence. Michael told the truth when he said to Tom, after the Tahoe attack, "Right now you're the only one I can completely trust." Obviously Fredo was one of those that he couldn't completely trust, though I doubt that Fredo was at the top of his suspect list at that point. And, as you and I have noted, we can see suspicion of Fredo in that "banana daquiri" scene (and in two others in Havana).
So, why did Michael tip his hand by telling Fredo, "Hyman Roth will never see the New Year"? If he was testing Fredo's loyalty, he would have found out a moment before he died as a result of Fredo betraying Michael's plan to Roth. I'm guessing that it was a way of "relaxing" Fredo by making him confident of his relationship with his younger brother--the better to set up that fatal revelation at the Superman show. Some risk!


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36211
01/04/06 01:45 PM
01/04/06 01:45 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by Sicilian Babe:
I've always been curious about the $2 million. As part of the overall whole, the $2 million was chump change. There was so much more at stake. However, as often seen, greed begets greater greed, and I think that is the only possible explanation for Roth's obsession. How often have we seen politicians and businesspeople toppled for a relatively small sum, in relation to the numbers involved as a whole?? Once you start stuffing your pockets, you just want to keep stuffing them.
You said it, SB! The incredible stupidity of very wealthy people who get tripped up by their greed for pittance sums they don't really need never ceases to amaze me--like the corporate jerkoffs who have total annual compensation packages of $60 million or more per year, and then get nailed for plundering the company for a private party or a car. When I worked for a very big company, I regularly found out about middle managers making $100k or more per year who got tripped up in some piddling little pilfering or insurance scam worth a couple thousand at most. They and their families ruined for this chicken-s**t. The Corporate Security manager told me that it wasn't good detective work that nailed these idiots--it was their own greed. rolleyes


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36212
01/04/06 02:32 PM
01/04/06 02:32 PM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,238
The Ravenite Social Club
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
Michael had been horning in on Roth’s Nevada gambling empire ever since he returned from Sicily. His murder of Moe Green, Roth’s best friend, showed that he’d stop at nothing to achieve his goal.
Turnbull, your brilliant interpretation of Michael wanting to get in on Roth's Nevada gambling empire confirms some thoughts that I've had about Roth, Moe Green and Barzini.

Of course when watching Godfather 1, on it's own, we do not know of a Hyman Roth character. But after watching Godfather 2 and being intruduced to the Roth character, we must come to the conclusion that Roth was a backer of Barzini's plan to eliminate Michael once Vito was gone.

The reasons that I feel this way is because of A) As you say, Michael's hunger to move in on the Nevada gambling and casinos, and B) The line by Moe Green to Michael " I've talked to Barzini; I can make a deal with him and keep my hotel!"

Moe Green ( like Bugsy Siegel ) was Hyman Roth's ( Like Meyer Lansky's) boy. So that line alone tells me that Moe being Roth's boy knew that Roth was backing up Barzini in his quest to have Michael killed and become the new boss of bosses.


Any thoughts?


Don Cardi cool



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Roth and the $2 million #36213
01/04/06 04:48 PM
01/04/06 04:48 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
goombah Offline
goombah  Offline

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Posts: 6,762
Anytown, USA
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
So, why did Michael tip his hand by telling Fredo, "Hyman Roth will never see the New Year"? If he was testing Fredo's loyalty, he would have found out a moment before he died as a result of Fredo betraying Michael's plan to Roth. I'm guessing that it was a way of "relaxing" Fredo by making him confident of his relationship with his younger brother--the better to set up that fatal revelation at the Superman show. Some risk!
I think it was a combination of two things: 1) as you said, making Fredo relax and attempt to win his confidence. 2) I think a very small part of Michael wanted Fredo to not be involved. I say this based on the completely anguished look Michael has when he does, in fact, learn that Fredo was the traitor during the Superman show. During the "banana daquari" scene, Michael's head was telling him Fredo was probably guilty, but Michael's heart wanted Fredo to be innocent. Hence the statement, "I know it was you Fredo - you broke my heart. You broke my heart."

Re: Roth and the $2 million #36214
01/05/06 01:27 AM
01/05/06 01:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by Don Cardi:
Moe Green ( like Bugsy Siegel ) was Hyman Roth's ( Like Meyer Lansky's) boy. So that line alone tells me that Moe being Roth's boy knew that Roth was backing up Barzini in his quest to have Michael killed and become the new boss of bosses.


Any thoughts?


Don Cardi cool
What you say makes a lot of sense, DC, if we project Roth back to GF. Since Michael was moving on Nevada in GF, and since Nevada "belonged" to Roth and his allies (like Moe Green), then it follows that Roth would benefit from Barzini whacking Michael. Even more intriguing: Michael apparently didn't figure out that Roth had backed Barzini.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36215
01/05/06 01:29 AM
01/05/06 01:29 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by goombah:
2) I think a very small part of Michael wanted Fredo to not be involved. I say this based on the completely anguished look Michael has when he does, in fact, learn that Fredo was the traitor during the Superman show. During the "banana daquari" scene, Michael's head was telling him Fredo was probably guilty, but Michael's heart wanted Fredo to be innocent. Hence the statement, "I know it was you Fredo - you broke my heart. You broke my heart."
That's a very subtle point, Goombah--one I hadn't thought of before. Thanks for posting it. smile


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Roth and the $2 million #36216
01/06/06 11:20 AM
01/06/06 11:20 AM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Quote
Originally posted by Turnbull:
The problem was that Roth also got greedy—for the $2 million: he saw a chance not only to kill Michael, but also to make him pay for his own assassination. But his greed for the $2 million dulled his ability to see that Michael was already on to his game. As the most powerful gringo in Cuba, Roth could have arranged to have Michael whacked within minutes of his arrival in Havana—and he should have. But he waited for the $2 million. Michael, meanwhile, held out, knowing that as long as Roth lusted for the $2 million, he could buy time to figure out who the traitor was in his family. Just as Roth played Michael’s obsession with becoming legitimate, Michael was now playing Roth’s obsession with getting the money.

I am not so sure Roth was as obsessed with the money as he was obsessed with having a public show of support from Michael. Just before Roth takes his nap he tells Michael that if the money is on the table he knows he has a partner, but if it is not, he knows he doesnt. In other words, the failure of Michael to deliver the money would have removed even the veneer of a show of unity between Michael and Roth, and it would have led to some kind of open warfare. Roth could have easily come up with an extra $2 million, and would have to comsumate the deal in Havana. This would have also meant that everyone would have had to pick sides between the Corleone and Roth, and this would have been a huge expense. Roth wanted the money and the show of unity so that he could blame Michael's assassination n someone else, and preserve the peace.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Roth and the $2 million #36217
01/06/06 06:24 PM
01/06/06 06:24 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,539
AZ
Quote
Originally posted by dontomasso:
I am not so sure Roth was as obsessed with the money as he was obsessed with having a public show of support from Michael. Just before Roth takes his nap he tells Michael that if the money is on the table he knows he has a partner, but if it is not, he knows he doesnt. In other words, the failure of Michael to deliver the money would have removed even the veneer of a show of unity between Michael and Roth, and it would have led to some kind of open warfare. Roth could have easily come up with an extra $2 million, and would have to comsumate the deal in Havana. This would have also meant that everyone would have had to pick sides between the Corleone and Roth, and this would have been a huge expense. Roth wanted the money and the show of unity so that he could blame Michael's assassination n someone else, and preserve the peace.
I'm not disagreeing with your theory, dt, but I believe Roth covered that point earlier. I think his birthday party gathering was designed to provide the show of unity you mentioned--Michael didn't say anything to anyone other than Roth about having reservations, and there's no reason to think the others at the party knew about the $2 million.
More improtant, Roth needed the party to give Roth an alibi. If Roth had had his way, Michael would have been assassinated in that military car, and his body would have disappeared or the assassins would have killed the military guys in the car and made it look like a rebel attack. His death would have been officially blamed on the rebels. Then, if the Corleones or their allies started asking questions, Roth could say, "Hey, don't look at me--I loved the kid. Why, just a couple of days ago, I officially anointed him my sole heir--just ask any of those aging thugs who were at my birthday party! Poor kid, he got caught in a firefight with the rebels."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

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