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Fatal mistake? #968576
04/03/19 11:15 PM
04/03/19 11:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
The novel several times makes the point that Vito never uttered a threat, not even to enemies, and he instructed Tom to do likewise. A wise policy. But, Michael, in Sicily, gratuitously threatens Sr. Vitelli in his cafe when Vitelli wants to know who he is and what he wants with his daughter :

"I am an American -- hiding in Sicily..My name is Michael Corleone...There are people who'd pay a lot of money for that information...But then your daughter would lose a father......instead of gaining a husband."

That's a hell of a way to introduce himself to the father of the girl he's just been smitten with, and who he's depending on to get an invitation to visit his daughter. More to the point: it's a self-fulfilling prophecy. How could he keep that info fro spreading all over a small Sicilian town where everyone knows everyone else, ]and they're probably related, too? The threat made him sound (perhaps intentionally) like a big-time American gangster.

He also agreed to a very public wedding (while "hiding in Sicily"), with the whole town invited. Naturally, people were going to ask Vitelli about his daughter's bridegroom. What was he going to say, "He's some cretino from somewhere who fell for Apollonia while he was taking a nature walk with these two lupara-toting bird-watchers"? Small wonder that word got back to Barzini, who got to Fabrizio.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #968581
04/04/19 01:19 AM
04/04/19 01:19 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
As you have said [or similar!] many times, Turnbull, when blinded by revenge and greed it can affect the judgements of even a master manipulator like Michael

Let's add lust! to revenge and greed

Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #968625
04/04/19 05:13 PM
04/04/19 05:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
TB, Michael was more powerful than Vito, but lacked Vito's finesse when using that power. I found his words spoken to Vitelli to be quite awkward and unnecessary. As you point out, his subsequent behavior and wedding plastered his name across Sicily.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #968655
04/04/19 09:41 PM
04/04/19 09:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
E
Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
E
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
I always reckoned the Thunderbolt was lust not love

He could have stopped at "I am an American and I reckon that may have still got him what he wanted

No doubt the big-time American gangster talk
1. got Vitelli's attention and an invitation to his home
2. got the brothers to put away their shot guns
3. got Apollonia
4. sadly lost Apollonia too

Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #968679
04/05/19 07:24 AM
04/05/19 07:24 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
C
Capri Offline
Capo
Capri  Offline
C
Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
Vito threatened the band leader Luca Brasi holding a gun to his head, brains or signature

Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #968696
04/05/19 10:01 AM
04/05/19 10:01 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Originally Posted by Turnbull
The novel several times makes the point that Vito never uttered a threat, not even to enemies, and he instructed Tom to do likewise. A wise policy.


Vito came very close to breaking that policy once..... in the meeting of the dons when Vito announced, "My youngest son -- was forced to leave this country, -- because of this Sollozzo business. All right -- and I have to make arrangements to bring him back here safely -- cleared of all these false charges. But I'm a superstitious man -- and if some unlucky accident should befall him -- if he should get shot in the head by a police officer -- or if he -- should hang himself in his jail cell -- or if he's struck by a bolt of lightning -- then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room. And that, I do not forgive".

That's a threat to my way of thinking.


.
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: SC] #970308
04/28/19 05:21 PM
04/28/19 05:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 12
UncleJune Offline
Wiseguy
UncleJune  Offline
Wiseguy
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Posts: 12
Originally Posted by SC
Originally Posted by Turnbull
The novel several times makes the point that Vito never uttered a threat, not even to enemies, and he instructed Tom to do likewise. A wise policy.


Vito came very close to breaking that policy once..... in the meeting of the dons when Vito announced, "My youngest son -- was forced to leave this country, -- because of this Sollozzo business. All right -- and I have to make arrangements to bring him back here safely -- cleared of all these false charges. But I'm a superstitious man -- and if some unlucky accident should befall him -- if he should get shot in the head by a police officer -- or if he -- should hang himself in his jail cell -- or if he's struck by a bolt of lightning -- then I'm going to blame some of the people in this room. And that, I do not forgive".

That's a threat to my way of thinking.


Well technically he didn't specify car bombs.... So car bomb loophole? Just kidding. What strikes me about this is that the threat seemed to fall flat with Barzini. An attempt was still made on Michael's life, killing Vito's daughter in-law (and unborn grandchild) in the process. Much more overt than a fake suicide. And then the Corleones just sit on it.... for 5-7 years? Of course, we know that was an act but still.

I believe the film has Appalonia's death BEFORE the Don't meeting. While the novel states Vito was surprised Barzini took another shot at Michael (when discussing Fabrizio). For the novel timeline, it states it took Vito a year from the meeting to get Michael home, and that it took Michael 3 months from her death to make arrangements. So at face value, that means ~9 months after the Dons meeting.

(I know I know, trying to reconcile timelines is difficult at best)

Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: UncleJune] #970343
04/28/19 11:27 PM
04/28/19 11:27 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Originally Posted by UncleJune
[
(I know I know, trying to reconcile timelines is difficult at best)

That may be the understatement of the year, UJ! smile

From the film, the sequence appears that 1) Sonny is killed; 2) Vito is told that night, says "This war stops now," and orders Tom to arrange a meeting of the heads of the Families; 3) Don Tomassino tells Michael sometime (but not a lot) later that Sonny was killed, and he has to leave for Siracusa "subito";
4) Apollonia is killed when the car that, presumably, was going to take them to Siracusa is blown up by Fabrizzio. I'm guessing that all of this transpired in less than two weeks.

But, it probably took more than two weeks to arrange the Commission meeting, so Barzini's attempt to use Fabrizzio to kill Michael didn't violate an agreement with Vito because there was no agreement at that point. Barzini may even have gotten the idea of killing Michael after he was notified that Vito wanted a meeting in order to further weaken Vito's position at the actual meeting, On the other hand, Barzini could have started arrangements to have Michael killed before Sonny was killed.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: Turnbull] #970383
04/29/19 02:12 PM
04/29/19 02:12 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
As usual TB, your analysis is pretty good. Yes, we don't know when Barzini conceived of murdering Michael. After reviewing the transcript, I doubt Michael's murder was planned after the Don's meeting. The transcript does not provide a timeline, but the transcript sequence has Tommasino visiting Michael right after Vito visits with with Bonasera which indicates that Sonny's death and the attempt on Michael happened right after and before the Don's meeting.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: olivant] #970430
04/30/19 12:52 PM
04/30/19 12:52 PM
Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars
dontomasso  Offline
Consigliere to the Stars

Joined: Feb 2005
Posts: 11,468
With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
It had to have happened in between the time of Sonny's death and the meeting. Don't forget this all took place in the late 1940's or early 1950's. It would have taken a while for the word to get from New York to Palermo to the Sicilian countryside that a deal was struck and Michael was not to have been touched. Turned out to be an interesting outcome for Kay.


"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."

Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: dontomasso] #970438
04/30/19 03:21 PM
04/30/19 03:21 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
DT, welcome back!


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: dontomasso] #970440
04/30/19 03:29 PM
04/30/19 03:29 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
Hey DT. Where you been?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Fatal mistake? [Re: dontomasso] #970452
04/30/19 04:34 PM
04/30/19 04:34 PM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
Underboss
The Last Woltz  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by dontomasso
It had to have happened in between the time of Sonny's death and the meeting. Don't forget this all took place in the late 1940's or early 1950's. It would have taken a while for the word to get from New York to Palermo to the Sicilian countryside that a deal was struck and Michael was not to have been touched. Turned out to be an interesting outcome for Kay.


Welcome back, DT!

I agree that we shouldn't overlook the time lag in communication back then. I don't recall seeing any telephones (or telephone lines) in the Sicilian scenes. Even if the hit happened after the meeting, it's unlikely that Barzini easily get a message to Fabrizio to call off the plan.

It's also possible that Barzini didn't make it a real priority to call off the plan. He still wanted to be #1 and killing Michael would have furthered that plan, deal or no deal.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"

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