When Moe met with Micheal what do you think he thought the meeting would be about? He obviously didn't expect the meeting to go where it did.

I think Moe knows generally what's going on. He already talked to Barzini about financing, so he must know that the Corleone financing is at risk. My guess is that he doesn't expect things to go immediately to talk of a buyout, and loses his temper.

One question I would have is: would the Corleones have pushed him out if he hadn't been skimming? My guess is that if Moe had been paying the Corleones their full share, Vito wouldn't have allowed the Corleones to go to war with him.

I think Michael and Vito saw legal gambling as the Family's future, and Moe Greene was their entree into casino/hotel ownership. He was getting pushed out no matter what.

As for what he was expecting, probably some sort of offer like he got from Barzini, presumably some financing in exchange for a stake in the business. But he didn't expect Michael to be so aggressive.

Like everyone else, he fell for the feigned weakness of the Corleone family and paid dearly for it.

Woltz, I agree. It was all part of the plan. In fact, Greene made a couple of references to the Corleone's weakness. But as stated in the Novel, Tessio knew that the Corleones didn't intend to persuade Greene of anything; Greene was a dead man.

As Michael reminded Moe, the Corleones gave him a "big chunk of money to finish your hotel," so Moe knew that Michael's visit meant the bill was coming due. I think he hoped that he could cut a deal with Michael that would leave him in control of the hotel, as he claimed he had talked to Barzini about. I don't know if he actually expected Michael to agree, but he figured that his bluster would would save the day for him. As Oli pointed out, he thought he could cow Michael because he saw the Corleones as weak.

I think the reference to "skimming" didn't mean that the Corleones were in on the skim, or that Moe wasn't giving them their share. The context was that Moe was losing money on the hotel--he brought up skimming, as if Michael believed that the hotel's losses were due to the skim going into Moe's pocket.

I think it comes down to the Corleones wanting that casino and either they would buy it or take it, skim or no skim. Also, many viewers knew the Bugsey story, so the script had to accommodate that story to some extent.

I think the phrase "I'm Moe Green" would be a great name for a rock band.

So perhaps Sonny was not that bad a Don! after all

Sonny as acting Don foresaw the Family's future, bankrolled the casino/hotel and sent Fredo over to “learn the casino business”

In a long-ago thread, I argued that Sonny, for all his hot-headedness, made a level-headed, strategic move in sending Fredo to Nevada to learn the casino business and (as we learned later) bankrolling Moe Green. He arranged for Fredo's safety and he planted a stake in what was to become an enormous, booming industry. That stake had an IOU attached to it.

True enough TB. However, are we measured by our successes or failures? I'll bet that, regarding Fredo and Las Vegas and Moe Greene, Sonny had input from Tom. Had he had Tom's input regarding his emotional response to Carlo's assault of Connie, he would have lived to make more level-headed and strategic moves..

I should have known, Turnbull, this wouldn't escape your eye!

What did Moe Greene think the arrangement [IOU] was though

Greene seemed to think indignantly his 'favour' of taking Fredo in, when the Corleones were having a bad time, squares the deal and he owes nothing

Greene kept referring to the casino / hotel as his “You think you [Michael] can come to my hotel and take over?” Greene had already talked to and can make a deal with Barzini and still keep his hotel

If the Corleones bankrolled Greene's casino / hotel because they couldn't get their own licence due to their unsavoury reputation, Moe Greene's reputation was not much better! “I made my bones when you [Michael] were going out with cheerleaders!”

How did Greene get the licence?

If not who was 'fronting' the casino / hotel

Good question.
When gambling was legalized in Nevada in 1931, the State Legislature put control into the Tax Commission. Oversight was lax: they didn't care much about the backgrounds of licensees--all they were interested in was bringing money into the state and taxing the proceeds. Plenty of unsavory characters got licenses, including Bugsy Siegel, the real-life Moe Greene. In 1958, after constant bad publicity about organized crime involvement in gambling, the Legislature took control away from the Tax Commission and put it into a new Gaming Commission, which had much tougher standards for licensing.

It was some welcome party! Fredo had organised for Michael

it was a business meeting

I think it was [another] lost opportunity

Fredo was blindsided Fredo had no idea

• Vito was semi-retired
• Michael was in charge of the family business
• Michael's real reason [buy Greene out] for the visit However acknowledge risky as Fredo could have blabbed to Greene and the surprise element would have been lost

Michael could have handled it in such a way that Fredo didn't end up with egg on his face, in front of everyone

1. Fredo wanted to give Michael a good time
2. piece of banging cocktail waitresses two at a time!
3. Fredo wanted to show off to his little brother

Michael could have thanked Fredo for organising the welcome party but no time this trip perhaps next one or similar

Did Michael really have to tell Fredo off in front of Tom, Neri and Fontane

Tom says, "The Don is semi-retired and Mike is in charge of the Family business now. If you have anything to say, say it to Michael," but I don't think that necessarily means that Fredo hasn't been told this before. I think Fredo mostly lives in a dream world until someone gives him a dose of reality.

Yes. Remember that, before Michael told off Fredo, Fredo angrily shouted: "Mike, you don't come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Green like that!" Fredo had told Michael off in front of Tom, Neri and Fontane.

Exactly TB. What some Board members forget is what Michael told Tom after his attempted assassination: "You see -- all our people are business men, their loyalty is based on that."

If Michael fails to admonish his brother, then that impugns his integrity as a leader and could affect the loyalty of family members.

Oops! I'd forgotten Fredo's outburst You are right Turnbull Michael had to lay down the law and send the message no one gets a pass

Fredo still took sides against the family with Roth though and ended up sleeping with the fishes

How did that work out

Michael told Tom after his attempted assassination: "You see -- all our people are business men, their loyalty is based on that." was in II Moe Greene buy out was in I

No doubt Michael had to tell Fredo off because of his angry outburst but he could have shown appreciation for his welcome party instead of dismissing Get rid of it

Sure thing Evita Michael was never going to party! “but he could have shown appreciation for his welcome party” and then handled the 'no thanks!' tactfully instead of curtly “dismissing Get rid of it”

Fredo was all excited and undoubtedly feeling important that he was in a position to give his kid brother “Anything you want, kid anything”

Fredo: It's all for you, kid It's all his [Fontane] idea, right? Didn't you --
Fontane: Well, your brother Freddy...
Fredo: Well it was Hey, girls here...I'll be right back... Anything you want, kid anything. Huh?

Michael: [curtly] Who are the girls?
Fredo: That's for you to find out...
Michael: Get rid of them, Fredo.
Fredo: Hey, Mike... uh...
Michael: Fredo, I'm here on business I leave tomorrow, now get rid of them. I'm tired. Get rid of the band, too

[sigh]...if only Michael were a nicer person...
This raises another point"
It is de rigeur for Mafiosi to have goumars. But there is no hint, either in the films or the novel, that either Vito or Michael philandered.

I'm somewhat loathe to state it, but maybe the only thing that I admired about Michael is that he apparently did not have a comare.

there is no hint, Vito philandered He knew Sonny had goumars but did nothing until his brain going soft from all that comedy playing with that young girl affected business

Now that you mention it “there is no hint, either in the films or the novel, that either Vito or Michael philandered” explains why Michael was not pleased with Fredo's welcome party
Tom and Neri also seemed uncomfortable perhaps realising what was coming....

In fairness to Michael, it was a shock to the system!

Michael also seemed taken aback, unaware of Fredo's philandering

totally in the dark

Exactly Evita

Greene was growing in confidence and disdain of the Corleones He gotta kick asses and had to straighten him out demanding contemptuously what is wrong with you?

Michael manipulated, let him win that round but lost his life because of it

...headstrong, talking loud, saying styupid things...

Was it stupid?! though Michael undoubtedly goaded Greene still...

“Mike! You don't come to Las Vegas and talk to a man like Moe Greene like that!”

Greene: Yeah Let's talk business, Mike
1. First of all, you're all done
2. The Corleone Family don't even have that kind of muscle anymore
3. The Godfather's sick, right?
4. You're getting chased out of New York by Barzini and the other Families

What do you think is going on here? You think you can come to my hotel and take over? I talked to Barzini I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel

Vito [Corleones] had no idea of Fredo's lifestyle! in Vegas
The Corleones knew that Greene had slapped Fredo around in public yet didn't bother to find out why Greene straightened Fredo a Corleone out?

I thought Vito kept tabs on everyone and everything [uh-oh before slipping]
Michael was blindsided that business was suffering! because of Fredo's philandering not because of Greene's skimming off the top

From the novel:
"They [Tom and MIchael] looked at each other. This was perhaps the real reason the Don was displeased with Freddie. The Don was straightlaced about sex. He would consider such cavorting by his son Freddie, two girls at a time, as degeneracy."



Fredo's banging cocktail waitresses two at a time actually saved Moe money--he complained that "the players couldn't get a [free] drink at the tables." Moe was based on Bugsy Siegel. Bugsy was a poor businessman who spent nearly six times more than the original estimate to build the Flamingo Hotel in Vegas. He opened it before the guest rooms were finished. The high rollers came early on opening night and cleaned out his casino, then left for the sleeping rooms at the other hotels in town. The Flamingo's losses were what caused Bugsy Siegel to be assassinated--"someone put a bullet through his eye."

Thanks Turnbull as always I appreciate your extra tidbits

What was Moe Greene's gripe?
If “Fredo's banging cocktail waitresses two at a time actually saved Moe money” then what was Greene's complaint?

Why did Greene use "the players couldn't get a [free] drink at the tables." as an excuse to slap Fredo around in public?
Greene: I gotta business to run. I gotta kick asses sometimes to make it run right

My [mis?] understanding, Greene made out the casino was losing money because of Fredo's philandering not because of Greene's skimming off the top

Wikipedia – Bugsy SiegelNo wonder Roth was livid that there isn't even a plaque or a signpost or a statue [memorial] of Moe Greene in that town! in Las Vegas, the city Greene invented

“Vito was “straightlaced about sex” and “would consider such cavorting by his son Freddie, two girls at a time, as degeneracy." Vito also knew Sonny had goumars
Vito was “displeased” but did nothing, yet Vito is the family man! Go Figure!!

I think that, behind all that bluster, Moe was scared because he knew the bill for the Corleones' big chunk of money that they gave him to finish his hotel was coming due. He probably slapped Fredo around because he could--he was given to "murderous rages" [novel] and it probably pleased him that he could humiliate the son of the great Vito Corleone in public. That, too, was a bill coming due, and he tried to rationalize it by claiming he had to "kick asses to make it run right."

There is a plaque of Siegel at the site of the old Flamingo Hotel:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N2zOhastXNA

Makes sense! Turnbull “pleased him [Greene] that he could humiliate the son of the great Vito Corleone in public” and did

Greene thought the Corleones were washed up Hence Greene could slap a Corleone around in public, insult another Corleone and still keep the Hotel

Don't mean to be pedantic!
What confuses me - the way Greene breezed in with a swagger, full of “confidence and disdain of the Corleones” “hey Mike, hello fellas” and offering “everything you want” - was “Moe scared? behind all that bluster”

Michael undoubtedly goaded Greene and succeeded ["murderous rages"] with his “Corleone Family wants to buy you out”
Greene promptly loses his temper and reveals “I talked to Barzini I can make a deal with him and still keep my hotel

It seems to me whilst Greene figured Michael's visit was an attempt to collect on the IOU [though Greene seemed to think indignantly his 'favour' of taking Fredo in, when the Corleones were having a bad time, squares the deal and he owes nothing] Greene seemed confident he was prepared and invulnerable with Barzini 'guarding' Greene and his hotel

Greene was slipping! Someone was able to just walk into the massage room and “put a bullet through his eye” unless the masseur was the same guy as Sonny's Causeway toll-collector!

I think it is fleshed out in the book that he was dismissive of Fredo something like why? Mama can do the cooking when Tom asked should they bring the only son home after Sonny's death and Michael in hiding

I think Vito was an "ethical relativist." Though he was "straightlaced," he recognized that it was in men's nature to philander. That was ok, as long as they remained "good family men." The revealing passage in the novel comes at Connie's wedding, when Vito counsels Johnny Fontaine:

Johnny says he can't marry his first wife again: "Beautiful broads run after me and I never could resist them."
Vito, exasperated, replies, "I didn't tell you to get married again. Do what you want. Who says you can't see [your children] every day? Who says you can't live in the same house? Who says you can't live your live exactly as you want to live it?" [emphasis added.]

I think Fredo banging cocktail waitresses two at a time crossed Vito's "ethical relativist" boundary. His remark about "Mama can cook our meals" meant that he thought Fredo was unmanly--not only because of sexual excess, but probably because he let Moe slap him around and because he was apprenticing as a hotel manager instead of being involved with the family business--possibly even for failing to prevent Vito from being shot and having a nervous breakdown afterward.

.

The above was discussed further in Vito and Fredo

Poor Fredo
Greene angrily jerked his arm away from Fredo just before Fredo's “Wait a minute, Moe -- Moe, I got an idea”
Then Fredo taking sides against the family
Tom quickly shutting Fredo downGreene storms out

Good question explain what?!
He was pushed around by everyone however banging cocktail waitresses two at a time! instead of learning the casino business
He ain't no Opera singer