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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: olivant]
#832053
03/09/15 10:00 AM
03/09/15 10:00 AM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
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Throggs Neck
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Nevertheless, a President's ability to communicate effectively and inspire is an important factor. President Reagan did so. Agreed.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: pizzaboy]
#832059
03/09/15 10:39 AM
03/09/15 10:39 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487 AZ
Turnbull
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Reagan accomplished a lot of good for America. He was the most brilliant communicator since Franklin D. Roosevelt--a tremendous asset in the age of instant communication. He was the first president since Eisenhower to fill out two full terms, which brought stability to the Executive Branch. His sunny demeanor and outstanding communication lifted Americans from a long period of gloom. His courage in going public with his colon cancer, and his brave (even humorous) response to the near-fatal assassination attempt, inspired Americans. Although he came to office as the most rhetorically anti-Soviet president, he was pragmatic enough to see that Gorbachev was a different kind of Soviet leader. He and Gorby forged an important agreement to remove medium-range missiles from Europe, which set the stage for the more significant nuclear arms reductions negotiated by George H.W. Bush and Clinton.
But, Reagan used his matchless communication skills to make Americans believe that government (which he headed) was their enemy. Not surprisingly, the people he brought into government had contempt for it, and plundered the public. His lifting of restrictions on S&L's required a $200 billion bailout that we're still paying off. He cut the safety net from millions of America's most needy people, putting seriously mentally and physically ill people out on the street. Wprst of all: he presided over the greatest upward transfer of wealth in our history--the rich have gotten richer ever since, and the middle class pays for it.
Overall: more harm than good.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#832060
03/09/15 10:57 AM
03/09/15 10:57 AM
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Joined: Dec 2012
Posts: 1,282
bigboy
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Turnbull]
#832061
03/09/15 11:00 AM
03/09/15 11:00 AM
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018 Texas
olivant
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
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Overall: more harm than good.
TB, one of my concerns as I express to my students is our collective penchant for accruing positive and negative actions and outcomes to Presidents. For example, despite the mantra from pundits, Presidents don't raise or lower taxes; only the US Congress can do that. That Congress may agree with or oppose a President's proposal is exactly how our Constitution prescribes that relationship. For example, in 1981 President Reagan signed a huge tax reduction into law and in late 1982 a huge tax increase into law. However, there would not have been the two laws for him to sign unless the Congress (Democrat controlled House and Republican controlled Senate) had passed both bills. Who gets credit?
"Generosity. That was my first mistake." "Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us." "Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Turnbull]
#832075
03/09/15 12:30 PM
03/09/15 12:30 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
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Reagan accomplished a lot of good for America. He was the most brilliant communicator since Franklin D. Roosevelt--a tremendous asset in the age of instant communication. He was the first president since Eisenhower to fill out two full terms, which brought stability to the Executive Branch. His sunny demeanor and outstanding communication lifted Americans from a long period of gloom. His courage in going public with his colon cancer, and his brave (even humorous) response to the near-fatal assassination attempt, inspired Americans. Although he came to office as the most rhetorically anti-Soviet president, he was pragmatic enough to see that Gorbachev was a different kind of Soviet leader. He and Gorby forged an important agreement to remove medium-range missiles from Europe, which set the stage for the more significant nuclear arms reductions negotiated by George H.W. Bush and Clinton.
But, Reagan used his matchless communication skills to make Americans believe that government (which he headed) was their enemy. Not surprisingly, the people he brought into government had contempt for it, and plundered the public. His lifting of restrictions on S&L's required a $200 billion bailout that we're still paying off. He cut the safety net from millions of America's most needy people, putting seriously mentally and physically ill people out on the street. Wprst of all: he presided over the greatest upward transfer of wealth in our history--the rich have gotten richer ever since, and the middle class pays for it.
Overall: more harm than good. I agree, a horrible president, and yes, right out of central casting, he was a champion union buster, hated unions, and despised the poor.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Footreads]
#832082
03/09/15 01:22 PM
03/09/15 01:22 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
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Throggs Neck
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On unions I have had a little experience with unions. Enough to know I would not want to be in one. I also have a little experience with unions. About twenty-five years, to be exact. And I know enough about modern drug screening and background checks to know that no union would have you. So everybody's happy.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#832087
03/09/15 02:13 PM
03/09/15 02:13 PM
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Joined: Sep 2014
Posts: 317 Good ole USA
rockstar_man45
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Good ole USA
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I loved Reagan. I think it's important to remember not every major event that happens in the United States is the work of the President. He's the symbol and protector of the free world not the ruler of it. In order to have an effective government you need a functional Congress and a President who's both a leader and a compromiser.
As for Reagan, I'd put him in the top 10 out of the best all time. Not top 5 but certainly top 10 or 15.
He made everyone proud to be Americans again after the Nixon-Carter years. Oversaw a period of great prosperity, worked well with Congress and Tipp O'Neill. Was likeable, communicated, was a true leader, put Gaddafi in his place, helped bring down the Soviet Union, and survived an assassination attempt. He was a breath of fresh air.
Of course my couple marks against him would be, as Turnbull mentioned, the upswing of wealth to the top 1 or 2% of people certainly did not benefit the majority of Americans. Reagan was a social conservative but he was also a man of his generation. I wish he also did more to combat HIV and the AIDS virus.
As for the Unions, a lot of them were corrupt anyway at the time and had pushed costs too high so work was going down south or overseas. Unions have their place of course, but greed is greed, no matter what economic ideology it comes from. The Unions in this country went too far and it brought consequences. One of which is pensions and benefits that now can't be afforded.
Overall I think Reagan was a very good President
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Turnbull]
#832088
03/09/15 02:13 PM
03/09/15 02:13 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,744
BAM_233
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Reagan accomplished a lot of good for America. He was the most brilliant communicator since Franklin D. Roosevelt--a tremendous asset in the age of instant communication. He was the first president since Eisenhower to fill out two full terms, which brought stability to the Executive Branch. His sunny demeanor and outstanding communication lifted Americans from a long period of gloom. His courage in going public with his colon cancer, and his brave (even humorous) response to the near-fatal assassination attempt, inspired Americans. Although he came to office as the most rhetorically anti-Soviet president, he was pragmatic enough to see that Gorbachev was a different kind of Soviet leader. He and Gorby forged an important agreement to remove medium-range missiles from Europe, which set the stage for the more significant nuclear arms reductions negotiated by George H.W. Bush and Clinton.
But, Reagan used his matchless communication skills to make Americans believe that government (which he headed) was their enemy. Not surprisingly, the people he brought into government had contempt for it, and plundered the public. His lifting of restrictions on S&L's required a $200 billion bailout that we're still paying off. He cut the safety net from millions of America's most needy people, putting seriously mentally and physically ill people out on the street. Wprst of all: he presided over the greatest upward transfer of wealth in our history--the rich have gotten richer ever since, and the middle class pays for it.
Overall: more harm than good. He also handled the AIDS crisis very poorly. It really wasn't till after Hudson's death, and when Ryan White's story came out about a tainted blood transfusion that he went into action.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: BAM_233]
#832091
03/09/15 02:44 PM
03/09/15 02:44 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
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He also handled the AIDS crisis very poorly. It really wasn't till after Hudson's death, and when Ryan White's story came out about a tainted blood transfusion that he went into action. 1980-1988. Were you even born yet? AIDS was practically an epidemic in New York City, especially in the gay neighborhoods. But not NEARLY enough was known about the disease back then to put the blame on Reagan. Fast forward twenty years, where people are living with HIV for decades (and liberals will HATE this FACT), and George W. Bush does more for the HIV/AIDS health crisis than any President that preceded him. Technology, funding, medical studies. It all takes time. We didn't even know what we were dealing with yet back in the '80s.
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#832097
03/09/15 03:31 PM
03/09/15 03:31 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
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Reagan accomplished a lot of good for America. He was the most brilliant communicator since Franklin D. Roosevelt--a tremendous asset in the age of instant communication. He was the first president since Eisenhower to fill out two full terms, which brought stability to the Executive Branch. His sunny demeanor and outstanding communication lifted Americans from a long period of gloom. His courage in going public with his colon cancer, and his brave (even humorous) response to the near-fatal assassination attempt, inspired Americans. Although he came to office as the most rhetorically anti-Soviet president, he was pragmatic enough to see that Gorbachev was a different kind of Soviet leader. He and Gorby forged an important agreement to remove medium-range missiles from Europe, which set the stage for the more significant nuclear arms reductions negotiated by George H.W. Bush and Clinton.
But, Reagan used his matchless communication skills to make Americans believe that government (which he headed) was their enemy. Not surprisingly, the people he brought into government had contempt for it, and plundered the public. His lifting of restrictions on S&L's required a $200 billion bailout that we're still paying off. He cut the safety net from millions of America's most needy people, putting seriously mentally and physically ill people out on the street. Wprst of all: he presided over the greatest upward transfer of wealth in our history--the rich have gotten richer ever since, and the middle class pays for it.
Overall: more harm than good. I agree, a horrible president, and yes, right out of central casting, he was a champion union buster, hated unions, and despised the poor. He didn't despise the poor. That's one of the myths of the left-wing. Because he decreased marginal tax rates there was an increase in revenues and an increase in private employment. In the African American community employment increased to a larger extent than for white Americans, the same goes for entrepreneurship. The problem was, while Reagan was "the great communicator," he was tone-deaf to racial symbolism and explaining how his free market economics would help the poor. The Left went out of their way to define him as how you described him, as someone who despised the poor. It's like saying he hated unions. He didn't, but he didn't like the political power of some unions that were in the pockets of the Democratic Party. I was a job steward years ago and saw first hand how unions often overreach, even if it means shooting themselves in the foot by causing the business to go bankrupt. That's what happened in Detroit. I also hate to disagree with Turnbull on this one, but the idea of people keeping more of their own money, the money that they worked for, is not an "upward transfer of wealth." He also didn't wipe out welfare or anything of the kind. It was cut by about 1% and the CETA Program, which was considered a failure, was discontinued. Reagan also followed Paul Volcker's advice on battling inflation, which led to a brief recession, but once it ended it led to a period of sustained job growth and prosperity. http://www.utsandiego.com/uniontrib/20040611/news_lz1e11perkins.htmlThe S&L crisis wasn't caused by Reagan but by multiple factors, such as the fact that most of them were in bad shape in 1981, the bureau that was supposed to monitor them covered up, and Congress passed the buck instead of dealing with the issue head-on early. See http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/SavingsandLoanCrisis.html
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: pizzaboy]
#832105
03/09/15 03:55 PM
03/09/15 03:55 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,744
BAM_233
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He also handled the AIDS crisis very poorly. It really wasn't till after Hudson's death, and when Ryan White's story came out about a tainted blood transfusion that he went into action. 1980-1988. Were you even born yet? AIDS was practically an epidemic in New York City, especially in the gay neighborhoods. But not NEARLY enough was known about the disease back then to put the blame on Reagan. Fast forward twenty years, where people are living with HIV for decades (and liberals will HATE this FACT), and George W. Bush does more for the HIV/AIDS health crisis than any President that preceded him. Technology, funding, medical studies. It all takes time. We didn't even know what we were dealing with yet back in the '80s. No, I wasn't born during the time. I would appreciate insight from those who were around when the epidemic was starting out. I honestly heard a lot about Reagan when it came to the epidemic. And, just looking it up now (should have before I posted) there are a couple articles that said he put high priority on AIDS research. And, I never heard that about Bush as well.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: BAM_233]
#832111
03/09/15 04:25 PM
03/09/15 04:25 PM
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Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296 Throggs Neck
pizzaboy
The Fuckin Doctor
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The Fuckin Doctor
Joined: Dec 2006
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Throggs Neck
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I wished I would have known about this. Thanks for the info PB. My pleasure, buddy .
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: padrone]
#832170
03/10/15 08:38 AM
03/10/15 08:38 AM
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487 AZ
Turnbull
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Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487
AZ
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I think that he did more good than harm by outspending the soviets and lifting the iron curtain so that a couple hundred million people could be free. Pretty big accomplishment.
No, and yes: Reagan ran up the largest budget deficits to date by increasing defense spending because he and his advisers believed the USSR had gotten a big jump on us in strategic weaponry. Many people believe that his insistence that we build "Star Wars" forced the USSR to follow us, forcing them into economic collapse. The facts that emerged after the USSR broke up are that Soviet economy was in a very precarious state for years due to Brezhnev's senility and the weakness of his two successors. Their spending on conventional and strategic weapons was flat during six of Reagan's eight years in office--and they never spent much on their own "Star Wars" because they believed it wouldn't work. They were ready to topple. But, yes, Reagan did contribute to the breakup of the Soviet Union by opening a useful and supportive dialog with Gorbachev--in effect, encouraging him in his open and reforming policies within his own country. In so doing, Reagan helped Gorby to pacify the hard-liners by showing them that the US wasn't on the verge of launching a nuclear war, and was open to responding to Gorby's peaceful initiatives. Reagan's willingness to discuss eliminating all strategic missiles showed them that the US could be reasonable. His support was essential for helping Gorby to preside over the dissolution of the USSR. Only a president with Reagan's impeccable anti-Communist credentials could have brought it off, and gotten the American people to support him.
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu, E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu... E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#832516
03/12/15 01:16 PM
03/12/15 01:16 PM
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Joined: Oct 2002
Posts: 364
Nyah
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When Reagan was president, I was too busy crapping my diapers. What I've heard was that he was a good president, he was very eloquent in speech (since he was an actor, I certainly hope so), but not perfect. Ok, aside from crapping my diapers, I did remember that the hostages from the Iran situation were being released minutes after Reagan took office. That topic alone was definitely debated a lot on amongst parents' friends and themselves.
The expression "paperless office" has now been officially defined by the Oxford English Dictionary as meaning "an office full of stuff, much of it paper, arranged in a higgledy-piggledy manner wherever it may lie".
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Nyah]
#832566
03/12/15 04:10 PM
03/12/15 04:10 PM
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Joined: Jul 2010
Posts: 2,989
getthesenets
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When Reagan was president, I was too busy crapping my diapers. What I've heard was that he was a good president, he was very eloquent in speech (since he was an actor, I certainly hope so), but not perfect. Ok, aside from crapping my diapers, I did remember that the hostages from the Iran situation were being released minutes after Reagan took office. That topic alone was definitely debated a lot on amongst parents' friends and themselves. I was also too young then to be able to give an informed opinion about Reagan's impact BUT....I recall hearing several times that the deal to release the hostages specified that they be released ON the day Reagan was inaugurated , and not while Carter was still in charge. Actors know how to make entrances, after all.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: BAM_233]
#833120
03/16/15 06:45 AM
03/16/15 06:45 AM
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Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845 Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
Yogi Barrabbas
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Joined: Mar 2005
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Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
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Reagan is/was well liked in the UK. I think it is because he was so tight with Margaret Thatcher....but she was an old twat so there you go...... But, would being tight with her give him a lot of hate over there? I never understood the whole love/hate thing with Thatcher. Working class and poor people hated her. Snobby, rich folks adored her!!
I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees!
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Yogi Barrabbas]
#833242
03/16/15 11:38 PM
03/16/15 11:38 PM
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Joined: Jan 2009
Posts: 3,744
BAM_233
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Reagan is/was well liked in the UK. I think it is because he was so tight with Margaret Thatcher....but she was an old twat so there you go...... But, would being tight with her give him a lot of hate over there? I never understood the whole love/hate thing with Thatcher. Working class and poor people hated her. Snobby, rich folks adored her!! Okay, makes sense now. Thanks
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#886846
07/03/16 10:41 AM
07/03/16 10:41 AM
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barry
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Iran Contra scam ... Oliver north ... REAGAN brought drug's in every city in the nation .remember all the criminal's he took off the hand's of Cuba . MIAMI was never the same !
Last edited by barry; 07/03/16 10:42 AM.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#886906
07/04/16 12:07 AM
07/04/16 12:07 AM
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Joined: Aug 2014
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Binnie_Coll
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I don't think that's a misrepresentation, faithful, Reagan was instrumental in bringing down the middle class, he broke many unions, and despised poor people, the rise of gangs in inner cities started under Reagan, and his draconian policies. he was a sick man in the head long before he was diagnosed with alzheimers.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#886928
07/04/16 04:07 AM
07/04/16 04:07 AM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
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I don't think that's a misrepresentation, faithful, Reagan was instrumental in bringing down the middle class, he broke many unions, and despised poor people, the rise of gangs in inner cities started under Reagan, and his draconian policies. he was a sick man in the head long before he was diagnosed with alzheimers. Binnie, I know it's a misrepresentation and I'm sorry to see that you're agreeing with a poster known for pulling "facts" out of his ass. Here's some facts dealing with economics gathered by Joseph Perkins back in 2004: Just as an example, let's consider Black income and education during the Reagan era. Andrew Brimmer, the Harvard-trained black economist, the former Federal Reserve Board member, estimated that total black business receipts increased from $12.4 billion in 1982 to $18.1 billion in 1987, translating into an annual average growth rate of 7.9 percent (compared to 5 percent for all U.S. businesses. The success of the black entrepreneurial class during the Reagan era was rivaled only by the gains of the black middle class. In fact, black social scientist Bart Landry estimated that that upwardly mobile cohort grew by a third under Reagan's watch, from 3.6 million in 1980 to 4.8 million in 1988. His definition was based on employment in white-collar jobs as well as on income levels. All told, the middle class constituted more than 40 percent of black households by the end of Reagan's presidency, which was larger than the size of black working class, or the black poor. The impressive growth of the black middle class during the 1980s was attributable in no small part to the explosive growth of jobs under Reagan, which benefited blacks disproportionately. Indeed, between 1982 and 1988, total black employment increased by 2 million, a staggering sum. That meant that blacks gained 15 percent of the new jobs created during that span, while accounting for only 11 percent of the working-age population. Meanwhile, the black jobless rate was cut by almost half between 1982 and 1988. Over the same span, the black employment rate – the percentage of working-age persons holding jobs – increased to record levels, from 49 percent to 56 percent. The black executive ranks especially prospered under Reagan. The Equal Employment Opportunity Commission reported that the number of black managers and officers in corporations with 100 or more employees increased by 30 percent between 1980 and 1985. During the same period, the number of black professionals increased by an astounding 63 percent. The burgeoning of the black professional, managerial and executive ranks during the 1980s coincided with a steady growth of the black student population at the nation's colleges and universities in the 1980s. Even though the number of college-aged blacks decreased during much of the decade, black college enrollment increased by 100,000 between 1980 and 1987, according to the Census Bureau. Meanwhile, the 1980s saw an improvement in the black high school graduation rate, as the proportion of blacks 18 to 24 years old earning high school diplomas increased from 69.7 percent in 1980 to 76 percent by 1987. On balance, then, the majority of black Americans made considerable progress in the 1980s. More of us stayed in high school, graduated and went on to college. More of us were working than ever before, in better jobs and for higher wages. The black middle class burgeoned to unprecedented size, emerging as the dominant income group in black America. And black business flourished, creating wealth in the black community. (Thanks to Joseph Perkins of the San Diego Tribune, June 11, 2004.) As for unions, the one notable case was the firing of flight traffic controllers when they went on an illegal strike. Per their contract they were not allowed to strike and did anyway, so Reagan did the correct thing in firing them. He did not despise poor people, you've been brainwashed from too many left-wing news rags that have an agenda. Please show me a single quote from anything he said during his two terms in office where he said he hated or despised poor people. The rise of gangs in inner cities was around way before Reagan. The first New York gangs started in the 1830s and the earliest Los Angeles gangs in the 1880s. Reagan wasn't that old. As for draconian policies, what would that be? Having a dress code in the White House? That's kind of a subjective standard. Since you're a Reagan hater maybe everything he did was draconian. I could say that Obama's policies are draconian. Provide an example and we can discuss it.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#886954
07/04/16 02:02 PM
07/04/16 02:02 PM
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Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,461 Green Grove Retirement Communi...
OakAsFan
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I don't think that's a misrepresentation, faithful, Reagan was instrumental in bringing down the middle class, he broke many unions, and despised poor people, the rise of gangs in inner cities started under Reagan, and his draconian policies. he was a sick man in the head long before he was diagnosed with alzheimers. He worked that senility thing pretty good when the Iran-Contra hearings hit, Junior Soprano style. The Gipper suddenly knows nothing.
"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: OakAsFan]
#887176
07/06/16 03:51 PM
07/06/16 03:51 PM
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Joined: Aug 2014
Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
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far, northwest
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I don't think that's a misrepresentation, faithful, Reagan was instrumental in bringing down the middle class, he broke many unions, and despised poor people, the rise of gangs in inner cities started under Reagan, and his draconian policies. he was a sick man in the head long before he was diagnosed with alzheimers. He worked that senility thing pretty good when the Iran-Contra hearings hit, Junior Soprano style. The Gipper suddenly knows nothing. he never knew what was going on in his white house, he was nothing but a puppet for the right wing maniacs. he was completely detached from reality.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Binnie_Coll]
#887187
07/06/16 04:46 PM
07/06/16 04:46 PM
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Joined: Nov 2006
Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
Underboss
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he never knew what was going on in his white house, he was nothing but a puppet for the right wing maniacs.
he was completely detached from reality.
We could claim that Clinton and Obama are puppets by left wing maniacs. It's just an assertion that gets made without evidence. No, he wasn't detached from reality. Maybe he didn't micromanage. Maybe there was a thing called plausible denial. There are other explanations aside from those made by left-wing extremists who hate Reagan because of who he was. If you're a left-winger then Clinton and Obama walk on water and do no wrong, and Reagan and Republicans are worse than Hitler and Satan combined. Left-wingers hate Republicans more than they hate ISIS. It's simply not possible to look at those that they disagree with nuance and understanding since that might create too much cognitive dissonance, too much intellectual discomfort. It's so much easier to hate and misrepresent.
Last edited by Faithful1; 07/06/16 04:46 PM.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#887210
07/06/16 09:03 PM
07/06/16 09:03 PM
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Binnie_Coll
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good post faithful, as always very well thought out, however as years go by more, and more, will come out about Reagan, and more people will have to admit what he really was,
just an opinion.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: getthesenets]
#887228
07/07/16 01:08 AM
07/07/16 01:08 AM
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Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
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F1, (no kindle)
Political leanings aside, I think Reagan was as much of a figurehead as any president in post WW2 era. Nobody becomes president without being well educated and accomplished in politics or another field.He was the gov. of California after all but I think I can recall several interviews and books from people who are from conservative political backgrounds that paint Reagan as more media icon than leader. Tall, full head of hair, great speaking voice.Charismatic "strong"authority figure...who came into office after Carter who was seen as weak,particularly after the Iran Hostage crisis.
I think I can find some of these books,interviews by people with no political bone to pick who wrote essentially what Binnie wrote about Reagan being more telegenic pitchman than leader.
I think most of these books were written after he left public life and before he passed away. Most of the books written about Reagan were by those with strong political disagreements and made a point to distort every motive he had in the worst possible light and could not demonize him enough. I graduated high school a few months after he was inaugurated and can recall the wild-eyed insanity from the Left back then. Scare stories about how he was going to start a nuclear war and how he hated the poor became the memes for the 80s. When I went to the University of California I'd see all kinds of scare-mongering posters and protesters. The campus newspaper had moronic cartoons of "Ronald Ray-gun" (I'd give a zero for creativity on that one). Books written on him changed the narrative to make everything he said and did epitomized evil. One of these was "Sleepwalking Through History" by Haynes Johnson of the New York Times. Since 90% of the media is on the Far Left to the Center Left of the political spectrum, it's only natural that most of Reagan's biographers are going to be biased. The fact is that Reagan earned a degree in economics and was not only president of the Screen Actors Guild, but re-elected an astronomical seven times. He was a leftist until 1952 and worked on the campaign of Helen Douglas. What changed him was his personal observation that Communists were working behind the scenes behind the candidacies of some Democratic candidates and in the film industry. (Later research into the Soviet archives verified that Josef Stalin had an extensive network in the United States and was active in film and politics.) After he switched parties he began giving motivational speeches. He wrote them himself and they reflected a familiarity with the top economists of the day, such as Friedrich Hayek and Milton Friedman. The speeches reflect an intellectual depth worthy of any economics professor. Because of a speech he gave in favor of Barry Goldwater he was encouraged to run for governor. He served two terms and was a popular governor, although he regrets signing some deceptively named bills into law. So if you want to bring up some books I would be glad to discuss them. I do have to wonder who these books claim for the identity of the puppet master behind the throne. Was George H. W. Bush secretly giving him orders? Was it his wife, Nancy? Was it Margaret Thatcher relaying orders from the UK? I'd really love to see this conspiracy theory. My personal opinion is that I don't agree with everything Reagan did, but I think he's been much maligned, his record distorted and his intentions demonized. I can say that George W. Bush was wrong for invading Iraq without demonizing his motives, that he "did it for the oil" or that he was manipulated by Dick Cheney. Bush wasn't the best public speaker, but that shouldn't be taken to mean he had a low IQ. The campaigns of Al Gore in 2000 and John Kerry in 2004 regularly demeaned him as an idiot, and the media helped push that narrative and mocked him at every opportunity. Yet when Al Gore's grades were released it showed him to be just as average as Bush, and Kerry fared even worse, showing him to be a D student. Michael Morell, who was a leader at the CIA from the Clinton administration to the Obama one and regularly briefed Bush, said that he was bright and asked intelligent questions. He absolutely disagreed with the narrative. Morell, by the way, has positive things to say about Democratic presidents as well.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: getthesenets]
#887239
07/07/16 03:34 AM
07/07/16 03:34 AM
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IvyLeague
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When Reagan was president, I was too busy crapping my diapers. What I've heard was that he was a good president, he was very eloquent in speech (since he was an actor, I certainly hope so), but not perfect. Ok, aside from crapping my diapers, I did remember that the hostages from the Iran situation were being released minutes after Reagan took office. That topic alone was definitely debated a lot on amongst parents' friends and themselves. I was also too young then to be able to give an informed opinion about Reagan's impact BUT....I recall hearing several times that the deal to release the hostages specified that they be released ON the day Reagan was inaugurated , and not while Carter was still in charge. Actors know how to make entrances, after all. Was that the case or was it that the Iranians actually took Reagan seriously while they saw Carter as a laughingstock not to be feared?
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: IvyLeague]
#887244
07/07/16 04:36 AM
07/07/16 04:36 AM
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OakAsFan
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When Reagan was president, I was too busy crapping my diapers. What I've heard was that he was a good president, he was very eloquent in speech (since he was an actor, I certainly hope so), but not perfect. Ok, aside from crapping my diapers, I did remember that the hostages from the Iran situation were being released minutes after Reagan took office. That topic alone was definitely debated a lot on amongst parents' friends and themselves. I was also too young then to be able to give an informed opinion about Reagan's impact BUT....I recall hearing several times that the deal to release the hostages specified that they be released ON the day Reagan was inaugurated , and not while Carter was still in charge. Actors know how to make entrances, after all. Was that the case or was it that the Iranians actually took Reagan seriously while they saw Carter as a laughingstock not to be feared? The pro wrestling intellect you apply to global politics is quite amusing.
Last edited by OakAsFan; 07/07/16 04:37 AM.
"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: OakAsFan]
#887246
07/07/16 04:39 AM
07/07/16 04:39 AM
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IvyLeague
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When Reagan was president, I was too busy crapping my diapers. What I've heard was that he was a good president, he was very eloquent in speech (since he was an actor, I certainly hope so), but not perfect. Ok, aside from crapping my diapers, I did remember that the hostages from the Iran situation were being released minutes after Reagan took office. That topic alone was definitely debated a lot on amongst parents' friends and themselves. I was also too young then to be able to give an informed opinion about Reagan's impact BUT....I recall hearing several times that the deal to release the hostages specified that they be released ON the day Reagan was inaugurated , and not while Carter was still in charge. Actors know how to make entrances, after all. Was that the case or was it that the Iranians actually took Reagan seriously while they saw Carter as a laughingstock not to be feared? The pro wrestling intellect you apply to global politics is quite amusing. I'll take that over your revisionist history designed to make liberals look good. Shouldn't you be cold calling people for the Clinton campaign, douchebag?
Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Faithful1]
#887282
07/07/16 02:10 PM
07/07/16 02:10 PM
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getthesenets
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F1, Not only will I concede the point that Reagan entered office being vilified by the press in the examples you gave, I especially remember that he was alluded to as some sort of demonic figure..Ronald(6 letters)Wilson(6)Reagan(6)=666.
I think Reagan has been maligned by writers from opposite end of politics, BUT he has been given a revisionist iconic status by those on his side of politics....especially after he passed away.
The truth always lies somewhere in the middle. I have vhs archives of c-span, sunday morning political shows, lectures,etc because at a young age I realized that facts and stories can and will be distorted by historians and the press AFTER the fact.
I will try to dig through them, but while I have to concede the point that news press, book publishing, and academia are filled with people with left leaning views, I think that valid scholarly criticism can and should be applied to any public figure.
In terms of bias, I've always said that bias is not what you write about the guy you don't like, it's what you refuse to write about the guy you like.Let me change that to person since Mrs. Clinton is presidential candidate now. Mrs. Clinton has been given a pass by the majority of the press for what were legally criminal actions. That is the bias. When/if a person on the other end of politics does something similar...he or she will be the top news story of the day until he/she resigns.
It's all a big joke, but when we read books or articles about political figures we can only go by the facts....and their actions, votes or words and place everything in context.
Also, not only will I concede your point about media driven narratives about candidates, but I remember almost being ashamed when I heard people I know repeating these narratives VERBATIM like parrots. Bush Sr. was a "wimp" Quayle was a "dumb blonde". W. Bush was a "dullard" The day after Howard Dean gave the rousing speech closer "We're gonna win in Michigan, Ohio.......AHHHHHHHHHHHH" Reporters said "with an outburst like that, he's not fit to run for president" and I heard co-workers say the EXACT SAME THING the next day. shameful.
Anyway....while I try to dig up these archives, we can judge Reagan by the things that are public record like his words, votes, actions, testimony, etc.
Lot of truth has been written in this thread by multiple members, and I think if we place things in context, nobody is wrong.
About the Iraq War and W. Bush, young Americans enlist to protect the people and interests of the USA. They make THE ultimate sacrifice. Manipulating information and using Colin Powell's respected image to knowingly mislead the public and the world community to support the military effort was a betrayal of those people on the ground making those sacrifices.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: getthesenets]
#887294
07/07/16 05:03 PM
07/07/16 05:03 PM
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Posts: 1,841 OC, CA
Faithful1
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Gets, I agree with everything you said. Yes, there are those who turned Reagan into some sort of superhero who could do no wrong. To me, hero-worship has no place in politics. Reagan made mistakes just like every other president. Today, I think there's much more hero-worship with Bill Clinton and Barack Obama. On your final statement, about our military, amen. Do have to disagree with you on Colin Powell, however. From what I've read, the Bush administration absolutely believed there was sufficient evidence to justify an invasion, so there was no intent to mislead. Again, I recommend reading Michael Morell's book, The Great War of Our Time. There's so much history in there and so many questions get answers that you may not be able to put it down. https://www.amazon.com/Great-War-Our-Time-Terrorism/dp/1455585661Also, related to the Iraq War, one of the conclusions from a British commission is that Tony Blair actually encouraged Bush to get rid of Saddam Hussein. Have to wonder, did Blair some of the evidence that the Bush administration saw and used to justify the invasion? http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-...etting-out.html
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#887299
07/07/16 06:15 PM
07/07/16 06:15 PM
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Posts: 935 Past caring, then hang a left
helenwheels
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I'll second the recommendation on Morell's book.
I'm curious what those that have read it or any of his pieces published in other places, or viewed his TV appearances think of his take on Benghazi.
All God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.
I never met anyone who didn't have a very smart child. What happens to these children, you wonder, when they reach adulthood?
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#887307
07/07/16 09:44 PM
07/07/16 09:44 PM
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helenwheels
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I read that last year.
What I'm interested in is any opinions on Morell's slant/analysis. Do people here a with him in general, disagree, agree with some parts, etc. He came in for some heavy criticism for a while about it all.
All God's children are not beautiful. Most of God's children are, in fact, barely presentable.
I never met anyone who didn't have a very smart child. What happens to these children, you wonder, when they reach adulthood?
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: helenwheels]
#893440
09/10/16 08:22 PM
09/10/16 08:22 PM
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getthesenets
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Still haven't read Morrell's book Didn't know where else to put this story so will put it here. This is along the lines of my views about Colin Powell though. People LIE through their teeth, and make excuses, cop pleas or craft explanations later......after people have died. I'm not going to understand security briefing or intelligence reports but I knew full well that it wasn't safe for people to return to their homes right after the collapses. Former NJ governor and EPA head admits she was wrong to tell people that it was safe to return home to ground zero area after 911.VERY long article. https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2016...ne-todd-whitmanChristine Todd Whitman, who as head of the Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) under George W Bush at the time of the 9/11 attacks told the public the air around Ground Zero in New York was safe to breathe, has admitted for the first time she was wrong. Analysis 9/11 tapes reveal raw and emotional Hillary Clinton For the 15th anniversary, we partnered with WNYC to look back at Clinton at Ground Zero – a far cry from the controlled figure now a step away from the presidency Read more Among those who were exposed to toxins released when the World Trade Center collapsed, the toll of illness and death continues to rise. Speaking to the Guardian for a report on the growing health crisis to be published on Sunday, the 15th anniversary of the attacks, Whitman made an unprecedented apology to those affected but denied she had ever lied about the air quality or known at the time it was dangerous. “Whatever we got wrong, we should acknowledge and people should be helped,” she said, adding that she still “feels awful” about the tragedy and its aftermath. “I’m very sorry that people are sick,” she said. “I’m very sorry that people are dying and if the EPA and I in any way contributed to that, I’m sorry. We did the very best we could at the time with the knowledge we had.” She added: “Every time it comes around to the anniversary I cringe, because I know people will bring up my name, they blame me, they say that I lied and that people died because I lied, [they say] people have died because I made a mistake.” A week after two hijacked passenger jets were flown into the towers of the World Trade Center, killing 2,753 people – 184 died in the Pentagon in Washington DC and 40 were killed when a United Airlines plane came down in a field in Pennsylvania – Whitman issued a statement. It said: “I am glad to reassure the people of New York … that their air is safe to breathe and their water is safe to drink.” She has always maintained that as head of the EPA she was simply passing on what government scientists were telling her, warning those working at Ground Zero itself to wear respirators but dismissing concerns over the surrounding area, which was engulfed in dust and ash. Three days after the attacks, Whitman, who had previously been the Republican governor of New Jersey, told reporters: “The good news continues to be that air samples we have taken have all been at levels that cause us no concern.” In 2003, the EPA inspector general criticized the agency’s handling of the crisis, finding that the EPA had no basis for its swift pronouncements about air quality. Politicians, including the then New York senator Hillary Clinton, laid into the Bush administration, accusing it of deceiving the public. More than 37,000 people registered with the World Trade Center Health Program (WTCHP), a federal organisation set up in 2011 to oversee those affected by exposure to the toxins released at Ground Zero, have been declared sick. Many have chronic respiratory illnesses or cancer. More than 1,100 people covered by the WTCHP have died. That number includes first responders who were at Ground Zero and people who lived and worked in the surrounding area. A WTCHP spokeswoman, Christy Spring, said: “We have a list of health conditions that the program provides medical monitoring and treatment for, established by the government to have been related to exposure to the dust and debris from the 9/11 attack on the World Trade Center.” Whitman said: “If people are dying from this – and I have not seen the data – and they had believed everything was fine, then you have got to blame the message they were hearing, and what they were hearing was that the ambient air quality in Lower Manhattan at the time was OK.” Jerrold Nadler, a veteran US congressman whose district covers the World Trade Center site, told the Guardian on Thursday that Whitman had never admitted she had been wrong about the air quality. “She knew or should have known” the air was dangerous, he said. In 2008, Nadler accused Whitman of causing thousands to suffer injury “and in some cases death” due to “unnecessary exposure to toxins released by the collapse of the World Trade Center buildings”. In a ruling in a lawsuit brought by New York residents that year, a federal appeals court ruled that Whitman could not be held liable for health problems caused by the air around Ground Zero.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: getthesenets]
#893442
09/10/16 08:24 PM
09/10/16 08:24 PM
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getthesenets
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-continued-
On Friday, Whitman questioned the level of proof that the air made people sick, but said: “If this is a direct relation, we all screwed up.” She thought she was right at the time, she said, but added: “I can believe that the scientists may not have had all the information they needed.”
Shortly after the attack on New York, Whitman said it was known that asbestos, lead and other toxins were in the wreckage of the Twin Towers, known as “the pile”, and that those working on rescue and recovery there should wear respirators. Most did not.
As the city under Mayor Rudy Giuliani led the work at Ground Zero rather than the federal government, Whitman said, she had had no authority to enforce the recommended wearing of safety equipment.
At the time, she said that beyond the pile, in the surrounding neighborhoods and the rest of Manhattan, the air did “not pose a public health hazard”.
==
Whitman quit the EPA in 2003.
In 2007 she admitted the real reason why she quit.
from washington post 07/03/07
Revealed: Bush EPA chief says she quit after Cheney rewrote coal power plant rules
Christine Todd Whitman is the media darling of talk shows, the conservative former governor of New Jersey and head of President George W. Bush's Environmental Protection Agency who quit the Bush Administration to "spend more time with her family."
Evidently, that's not true.
In a groundbreaking article today by the Washington Post, the paper alleges that Whitman left the Administration because they pressured her to accept pro-industry coal power plant rules which threatened ghoulish levels of air pollution.
After industry officials complained to Vice President Cheney about Clinton-era rules requiring plants to update their technology when they conducted routine maintenance to comply with air quality standards, Cheney turned to Whitman, she said.
Whitman told the Post she'd "been stunned by what she viewed as an unquestioned belief that EPA's regulations were primarily to blame for keeping companies from building new power plants."
"I was upset, mad, offended that there seemed to be so much head-nodding around the table," she said. She said she had to fight "tooth and nail" to keep Cheney from turning over the rewriting of the rules to the Energy Department.
Whitman says she wanted a return to Bush's "Clear Skies" initiative, but that went nowhere.
Whitman brought two folders to show President Bush. The first was 2 1/2 inches thick, detailing the dangers of raising legal levels of arsenic in drinking water -- another Administration proposal. She pointed to a folder she'd brought "four or five times as thick."
"If you think arsenic was bad," she recalled telling Bush, "look at what has already been written about this."
Nothing changed. After the EPA rewrote the coal power plant standards, the White House essentially rewrote the rules to favor industry. Whitman said she'd had enough.
"I just couldn't sign it," she told the Post. "The president has a right to have an administrator who could defend it, and I just couldn't."
Soon thereafter, a federal appeals court found that the rule change violated the Clean Air Act -- according to the paper, the judges said the administration had redefined the law in a way that could be valid "only in a Humpty-Dumpty world."
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: getthesenets]
#893445
09/10/16 09:21 PM
09/10/16 09:21 PM
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getthesenets
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: NickyScarfo]
#893457
09/11/16 12:29 AM
09/11/16 12:29 AM
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Faithful1
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Gets, Interesting on Whitman and the EPA. Were government scientists being deceptive or relying on old technology? Today's tech is so much more advanced than 15 years ago. I'm sure there was also pressure from the locals themselves to return to their homes. It's a tough situation. Would like to see comparative stats for the health conditions too since there have been bogus claims on both sides.
The second piece from the Washington Post, didn't see where it asked for comments from Cheney. Always should include both sides, especially if the writer is making negative allegations. I looked in the original article ("Leaving No Tracks", June 27, 2007) and one of its major sources for that section is a lobbyist and another is a Florida law professor who specializes in the endangered species act, both of whom had an anti-Bush agenda. So I have to wonder how did the writers get all this inside information? The writers quote Whitman but doesn't mention that they actually interviewed her. So it makes it hard to tell if the article is accurate or a hit piece.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: Faithful1]
#893465
09/11/16 05:47 AM
09/11/16 05:47 AM
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getthesenets
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F1, I forgot to cross my Ts and dot my I's. In Whitman's "apology",I looked for wording that mentioned the limitations of the equipment circa 2001. Whitman didn't make that claim. = In 2003,EPA inspector General issued a report that said that White House "convinced EPA to add reassuring statements and delete cautionary ones" by having the National Security Council control EPA communications after the Sept. 11 terror attacks. "When EPA made a Sept. 18 announcement that the air was 'safe' to breathe, the agency did not have sufficient data and analyses to make the statement," the report says, adding that the EPA had yet to adequately monitor air quality for contaminants such as PCBs, soot and dioxin. In all, the EPA issued five news releases within 10 days of the attacks and four more by the end of 2001 reassuring the public about air quality. But it wasn't until June 2002 that the EPA determined that air quality had returned to pre-Sept. 11 levels -- well after respiratory ailments and other problems began to surface in hundreds of workers cleaning dusty offices and apartments. = AP article here http://www.seattlepi.com/national/article/White-House-edited-EPA-s-9-11-reports-1122465.phpEPA Inspector General report here https://www.epa.gov/sites/production/files/2015-10/documents/wtc_report_20030821.pdfI think the report says that White House actions were done for "national security" issues. People are expendable to the govt. Normally it's poor people who take the hit. The residents of lower Manhattan are generally wealthy people and I remember that one of their groups hired a private "air quality"consultant who told them that in no way was it safe for them to return to their homes. Poor people wouldn't have had the option of hiring an expert and being able to afford lodging while waiting to move back home. == Good points about the Washington Times article. Ir does quote Christie but doesn't detail where the quotes come from. here is a Q and A Whitman did with the local newspaper, The Star Ledger in 2012 http://blog.nj.com/njv_editorial_page/2012/12/former_gov_christie_whitman_on.htmlQ. Let’s talk about the environment: You said in a 2007 Washington Post interview that you resigned as EPA director because Vice President Dick Cheney insisted on easing air pollution rules. A. I didn’t say it that way. But that was the final straw.
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Re: Was Regan a good President?
[Re: alicecooper]
#893519
09/11/16 04:35 PM
09/11/16 04:35 PM
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Posts: 3,021 far, northwest
Binnie_Coll
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far, northwest
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reagan was a piece of shit.
He worked for the banks. He got the ball rolling for nafta and shipping jobs out of this country---and the third world was the goal let's not kid ourselves. Hello credit card industry.
Anyone who thinks reagan was anything other than a corporate pig should do some reading. He was a master at pissing down your back and telling you it was raining. yes, yes, finally someone who shares my views! this guy was an ignorant ass, he was responsible for the savins and loan collapses because his aides brought it on, all he was doing when all this was coming down, was eating jelly beans, he was the countrys biggest union buster, he had alzhiemers from day one. biggest political puppet in U.S. history.
" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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