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does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. #809962
10/24/14 02:04 PM
10/24/14 02:04 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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no, he gambled on games when he was manager of the cincinatti reds, which means he could and most likely did influence the result of games. in spite of his glorious records,

his character is seriously flawed.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810154
10/26/14 07:30 AM
10/26/14 07:30 AM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
no, he gambled on games when he was manager of the cincinatti reds, which means he could and most likely did influence the result of games. in spite of his glorious records,

his character is seriously flawed.



Put Pete in, he was a degenerate gambler but a great player, OJ is in and he's a murderer lol

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810164
10/26/14 10:24 AM
10/26/14 10:24 AM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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NN78 o.j. being in the football hof is indeed shameful,
perhaps they should take him out,

however pete according to baseball commission sources,
by being manager influenced the final outcome of some games,

aside from being one of the greatest ballplayers ever, don't you think
we have to draw a line when it comes to gambling on your own team. when you are manager?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810171
10/26/14 10:54 AM
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What he did as a manager shouldn't affect him getting in as a player.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810196
10/26/14 01:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
NN78 o.j. being in the football hof is indeed shameful,
perhaps they should take him out,

however pete according to baseball commission sources,
by being manager influenced the final outcome of some games,

aside from being one of the greatest ballplayers ever, don't you think
we have to draw a line when it comes to gambling on your own team. when you are manager?


He's a likable guy Binnie, he had a restaurant in Boca for years and has made a good effort to give back to the community and atone for his mistakes IMO. Who am I to judge, everybody has got something wrong with them as my Mother always says. Certainly betting for or against your own team is a serious offense but I think he's been punished enough and he should get in. He wasn't the first and he won't be the last guy to throw a game. I don't know if you follow tennis but they have caught a handful of guys throwing matches over the last few years and they got 2 year suspensions and are back playing. smile

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810226
10/26/14 04:22 PM
10/26/14 04:22 PM
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Hall of Fame. Define it. Pete is famous for many accomplishments, among them is gambling. With the steroid era baseball as a whole has tarnished itself. The HOF has denigrated itself to the level of Madame Tousaud's Wax Museum. I never put much credence in the HOF because many of the players are there because they were compilers; many years playing and stacking up the statistics. The Hall administrators became a bunch of elitist snobs. And let's admit it, baseball has become a 2nd rate sport, dominated by TV coverage and replays. They might as well have robots playing the game.


Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #810234
10/26/14 04:56 PM
10/26/14 04:56 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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well, mary you are right in some respects. the steroid era is indeed shameful, and their are many in the hall of fame, who don't deserve to be in. it has became a sham. as has the game itself, high salaries, a slow game, much to slow I might add,

but, mary why cheapen the hof anymore by letting in a man who threw games, must we sink that low.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811137
11/01/14 04:12 PM
11/01/14 04:12 PM
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For me, it's this simple. Pete Rose broke the hits record set by Ty Cobb. By most accounts, Ty Cobb was a complete a-hole. Pete Rose eclipsed Cobb and Rose has been punished for nearly 25 years, which is longer than many sentences served by murderers & rapists. Therefore Pete Rose deserves to be in Cooperstown as a member of the MLB Hall of Fame.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: goombah] #811140
11/01/14 04:51 PM
11/01/14 04:51 PM
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"I am not a role model."---- Charles Barkley.

That's the best quote ever. If Pete Rose doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, no one does.

Does anyone think Mickey Mantle should be thrown out because he was an alcoholic and a lousy father and family man?

No. Because moralists have selective memories. Put him in.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: NNY78] #811147
11/01/14 05:17 PM
11/01/14 05:17 PM
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The Hall of Fame announced its Golden Era ballot for players whose careers peaked 1947-72:

http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/2015-golden-era-committee-ballot

This is the committee that put Ron Santo in 3 years ago (only meets every third year). Announcement should be in early December. Kaat, Hodges, Oliva, and Minoso were all pretty close last time.

Edit: if he were back on the ballot, I don't think any group of voters the HOF has had would vote Rose in. A lot of people who previously pushed for him look like idiots because he lied to their faces for years.

Last edited by mustachepete; 11/01/14 05:21 PM.

"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811149
11/01/14 05:28 PM
11/01/14 05:28 PM
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Pete Rose was hell of a ball player. Put him in for that. Not as a manager.


"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #811158
11/01/14 06:15 PM
11/01/14 06:15 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
The Hall of Fame announced its Golden Era ballot for players whose careers peaked 1947-72:

http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/2015-golden-era-committee-ballot

This is the committee that put Ron Santo in 3 years ago (only meets every third year). Announcement should be in early December. Kaat, Hodges, Oliva, and Minoso were all pretty close last time.

Edit: if he were back on the ballot, I don't think any group of voters the HOF has had would vote Rose in. A lot of people who previously pushed for him look like idiots because he lied to their faces for years.


that could very well be, it is a safe bet that he will never be elected, entirely possible for the exact reasons you mentioned. rose as the evidence clearly shows, threw games, and in spite of his great records, how can you justify letting in a man who confessed to throwing games, if you let him in, don't you lower the bar?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #811160
11/01/14 06:19 PM
11/01/14 06:19 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
"I am not a role model."---- Charles Barkley.

That's the best quote ever. If Pete Rose doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame, no one does.

Does anyone think Mickey Mantle should be thrown out because he was an alcoholic and a lousy father and family man?

No. Because moralists have selective memories. Put him in.


mickey mantle never threw games. no yankee ever did.

pete rose did. and that is where the difference lies.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811169
11/01/14 06:35 PM
11/01/14 06:35 PM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
mickey mantle never threw games. no yankee ever did.

pete rose did. and that is where the difference lies.

Where's the proof that he ever threw a game?

Mickey Mantle was a bum. So was Babe Ruth, for that matter. Both of them booze addled whore-masters and absentee family men. But they belong in the Hall of Fame based on what they did ON THE FIELD.

And again, where's the proof that Rose ever threw a game? If he did, then I'd be the first one to say that he doesn't belong. But there is no proof, is there?


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811177
11/01/14 06:48 PM
11/01/14 06:48 PM
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If memory serves correct, Rose admitted to betting on games. It was never proven he intentionally "threw" games as a player or manager. Given Pete's competitive reputation, I would highly doubt he ever took a dive.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811178
11/01/14 06:48 PM
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the dowd report states that rose when he was manager of the reds, john dowd believed that rose bet against the reds while he was manager, and, was so deep in debt to bookies that he had influenced games when he was manager. two commissioners, uberroth and giamati, concluded rose was betting against his own team. while he was manager. google rose and its all there.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811180
11/01/14 06:52 PM
11/01/14 06:52 PM
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PB is right there is no evidence that Rose ever threw a game, he claimed that he always bet on the Reds because he was so confident in them.

"I bet on my team every night. I didn't bet on my team four nights a week. I was wrong," Rose said.

Rose said that he believed in his team so much that he bet on them to win every night.

"I bet on my team to win every night because I love my team, I believe in my team," Rose said. "I did everything in my power every night to win that game."

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2798498

Who cares anyway? He's already in the more important WWE Hall of Fame for getting tombstoned by Kane lol. 3:40 on -


Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811181
11/01/14 06:52 PM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
the dowd report states that rose when he was manager of the reds, john dowd believed that rose bet against the reds while he was manager, and, was so deep in debt to bookies that he had influenced games when he was manager. two commissioners, uberroth and giamati, concluded rose was betting against his own team. while he was manager. google rose and its all there.

He believed? If he had solid proof he would have presented it. And until such proof is presented, he belongs in the Hall of Fame.

Show me the proof, besides what that asshole "believed," and I'll go along with keeping Rose out.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811186
11/01/14 07:11 PM
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ok, here goes. he was betting 10,000 dollars a game, against his own team when he was managing the reds. he was into the books 200,000 gs. now he at first denied everything and later admitted it. every commissioner that reviewed his case came to the same cconclusion. he was betting against his own team. in 1989 sports illustrated issue its clear what he was doing.
betting 10,000 a game against your own team when your manager?
surely its easy to sway the game.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811193
11/01/14 07:26 PM
11/01/14 07:26 PM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
ok, here goes. he was betting 10,000 dollars a game, against his own team when he was managing the reds. he was into the books 200,000 gs. now he at first denied everything and later admitted it. every commissioner that reviewed his case came to the same cconclusion. he was betting against his own team. in 1989 sports illustrated issue its clear what he was doing.
betting 10,000 a game against your own team when your manager?
surely its easy to sway the game.

They never PROVED shit. Everything that you just posted, especially the SI article, is HEARSAY. And yes, he admitted to betting baseball, and ON the Reds. He NEVER admitted betting AGAINST the Reds. So post a direct link that cites that he was found guilty of betting against the Reds, or just admit that one doesn't exist.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811195
11/01/14 08:11 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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the only evidence is what the b.b. commissoners, were given. the dowd report. as I said john dowd led a through investigation on pete rose betting on baseball games, he gave his report to two
commissoners, he told them he believed after he investigated

that rose had bet against him own team. bud selig also was told the same thing. all the commissoners agreed to a lifetime ban.

now if you don't believe he was into the books 200,000gs
and they threated to break his legs. then you don't believe SI.
now if he was betting 10.000 a game and managing the reds,
and the the investigating team believed he was betting against his own team, you want concrete evidence which would only be if the game was tied in the 9th and he sent a midget up to bat.

you believe what you want, but, the dowd report is not hearsay, its what the b.b. commissoners have.is it enough for you no,but myself I believe john dowd.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811197
11/01/14 08:39 PM
11/01/14 08:39 PM
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No, you can believe whatever you want. John Dowd never PROVED a fucking thing. He's a lying sack of shit lawyer. He'll follow the money, just like he did when he represented John McCain, who, coincidentally, is another Holier-Than-Thou, cranky old conservative, from Bumblefuck, USA (although I respect him, and in hindsight wish he would have defeated Obama six years ago).


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811198
11/01/14 08:51 PM
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bumblefuck, didn't cordero used to ride him. yeah, he hooked up with cigar one year in the breeders cup.

yeah I remember bumblefuck.

Last edited by Binnie_Coll; 11/01/14 08:53 PM.


" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811200
11/01/14 08:54 PM
11/01/14 08:54 PM
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Dowd himself admitted that there was no evidence that Rose bet against the Reds, he said that he "probably" did; and most don't feel confident hanging their hat on "Probably"

"The official Dowd Report says "no evidence was discovered that Rose bet against the Cincinnati Reds."

http://static.espn.go.com/mlb/news/2002/1212/1475769.html

Last edited by Camarel; 11/01/14 08:54 PM.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811202
11/01/14 09:12 PM
11/01/14 09:12 PM
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Binnie_Coll Offline OP
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hmmmm.... I was referring to Wikipedia, says dowd thought he did, and he relayed that to he commishes. guess they were wrong,

anyway new commish coming, lets see how he deals with it.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811210
11/02/14 12:47 AM
11/02/14 12:47 AM
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
hmmmm.... I was referring to Wikipedia, says dowd thought he did, and he relayed that to he commishes. guess they were wrong,

anyway new commish coming, lets see how he deals with it.


Binnie I like ya bud but you have to remember that Wiki can be edited by ANYONE and made to look credible. I can make a page of myself and make it look like I'm some CIA double agent.

As for Rose I agree with most and what I have said earlier, his gambling came AFTER his playing carer and when he was a manager only unless I'm thinking wrong.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811212
11/02/14 12:55 AM
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I think Chubby Checker should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. He is not in either.


only the unloved hate
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Footreads] #811214
11/02/14 01:03 AM
11/02/14 01:03 AM
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Originally Posted By: Footreads
I think Chubby Checker should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. He is not in either.

The biggest oversight in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is Johnny Maestro. It's disgraceful that he's been snubbed all these years.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811216
11/02/14 01:14 AM
11/02/14 01:14 AM
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I didn't know that your right he should be in. He still can be right?

The thing that made chubby checker unique was the dance he invented The Twist he gave lesson on Tv on how to do it. Those lessons were shown on tv all the time during commercials. It was similiar to the chest lessons people got during the Boris and Bobby fisher matches.

It was a happening. For that reason alone Checker should have been voted in.


only the unloved hate
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #811221
11/02/14 02:50 AM
11/02/14 02:50 AM
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Footreads
I think Chubby Checker should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. He is not in either.

The biggest oversight in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is Johnny Maestro. It's disgraceful that he's been snubbed all these years.


That is really weird that Checker is not in. But, he is not alone sadly. Stevie Ray Vaughan, The Doobie Brothers, Lou Reed, Joe Cocker, Tina Turner (no idea if Ike is in or not), Jim Croce, etc are still waiting.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #811235
11/02/14 09:06 AM
11/02/14 09:06 AM
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Footreads
I think Chubby Checker should be in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame. He is not in either.

The biggest oversight in the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame is Johnny Maestro. It's disgraceful that he's been snubbed all these years.


That is really weird that Checker is not in. But, he is not alone sadly. Stevie Ray Vaughan, The Doobie Brothers, Lou Reed, Joe Cocker, Tina Turner (no idea if Ike is in or not), Jim Croce, etc are still waiting.

Ike and Tina are in collectively. No reason to put Tina in by herelf. She had very limited success as a solo artist other than the What's Love Got To Do With It? years (mid '80s).

I liked Jim Croce a lot. But the truth is, his career may have been too short. But he belongs based on talent alone.

The other acts that you mention are deserving. Stevie Ray and Lou Reed may go in this year, though. If N.W.A. gets in, it's political correctness run amok.

This year's nominees: http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthr...fpart=1&q=1


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811297
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As I said above, I don't think Rose is electable, but one of the things that I think everyone has to keep in mind in this discussion is that Pete managed the Reds for four full seasons, and he brought them home in second place all four times. The next season, when he was suspended mid-season, was a mess for the Reds, but in their first Pete-less season the Reds stayed in first place wire to wire and swept the Series.

So Pete's conduct potentially affected multiple pennant races, and not just the Reds. I don't think you can just assume that Pete didn't throw any games as a manager, and figure that's enough. Part of manager's job is to look past the specfic game, to make sure players are rested, work young players into the lineup. There's a direct conflict between that responsibility and the gambler's impulse to win this bet right here, and I'm not sure that's not part of the reason the division went from LA to Houston to San Francisco to LA to San Francisco in those years. It sure didn't help, though.


Last edited by mustachepete; 11/02/14 01:06 PM.

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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811298
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mustachepete, you are a very good thinker. and I agree with
your post. now, we have another issue with the hall. that is the steroid era. I mean a-rod, mcquire, Conseco, Clemens, bonds, and others. the cheaters. I wouldn't let them in either. and, furthermore their records should not be allowed. selig erred for not dealing with the problem. he should have been on top of it.

how do you stand on this steroid situation?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811329
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The steroid issue is much tougher to deal with imo. While i personally think that until evidence can be shown that Rose threw games, he should be allowed; with Steroids it's not exactly clear who did and didn't take them and what effect they took from them. I mean what if Clemens, Sosa, Mcgwire, Bonds, etc are banned and a few elite players like Griffey Jr, Maddux, R.Johnson, etc make it simply because they were never caught? Just to clarify i'm not accusing any of those guys, it's just difficult to be sure with how messed up that era was.

Also with Bonds in particular it's even more difficult because he was on his way to a HOF career before he started juicing. From all accounts i've read Bonds started around 98, without the roids he obviously wouldn't have set the single season or all time HR records, or have beat Babe Ruths single season Slugging % record. Still he was hitting 30 HR's and Stealing 30 Bases every year before he started using Steroids.

This is just my opinion and i know most will disagree with it, but i think these guys should be personally punished; as in charges brought against them if warrented and a lifetime ban from Baseball, but a Hall of Fame without Rose, Bonds and Clemens just seems weird. Mcgwire can stay out he pretty much admitted to taking them his full career and Power Hitting seemed to be pretty much all he done.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811343
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
The steroid issue is much tougher to deal with imo. While i personally think that until evidence can be shown that Rose threw games, he should be allowed; with Steroids it's not exactly clear who did and didn't take them and what effect they took from them. I mean what if Clemens, Sosa, Mcgwire, Bonds, etc are banned and a few elite players like Griffey Jr, Maddux, R.Johnson, etc make it simply because they were never caught? Just to clarify i'm not accusing any of those guys, it's just difficult to be sure with how messed up that era was.

Also with Bonds in particular it's even more difficult because he was on his way to a HOF career before he started juicing. From all accounts i've read Bonds started around 98, without the roids he obviously wouldn't have set the single season or all time HR records, or have beat Babe Ruths single season Slugging % record. Still he was hitting 30 HR's and Stealing 30 Bases every year before he started using Steroids.

This is just my opinion and i know most will disagree with it, but i think these guys should be personally punished; as in charges brought against them if warrented and a lifetime ban from Baseball, but a Hall of Fame without Rose, Bonds and Clemens just seems weird. Mcgwire can stay out he pretty much admitted to taking them his full career and Power Hitting seemed to be pretty much all he done.


I agree with this, and many are being punished because they were part of the era. That era is a big mess, and who knows if any mentioned above will be in. Unless of course somebody already in Cooperstown took them (I believe there were rumors or speculation about Henderson).

Also, I believe that Bud Selig should be banned from Cooperstown as well.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811351
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bam233.
what a mess this is, its very distressing to baseball fans,
I will say this, while agreeing with bam. I think bud selig bears some responsibility with the steroid situation, and what he left to the next commissioner. I think selig did baseball a disservice by not addressing all the juiced up players. he gave baseball a black eye while ignoring it for so long.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #811357
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: Camarel
The steroid issue is much tougher to deal with imo. While i personally think that until evidence can be shown that Rose threw games, he should be allowed; with Steroids it's not exactly clear who did and didn't take them and what effect they took from them. I mean what if Clemens, Sosa, Mcgwire, Bonds, etc are banned and a few elite players like Griffey Jr, Maddux, R.Johnson, etc make it simply because they were never caught? Just to clarify i'm not accusing any of those guys, it's just difficult to be sure with how messed up that era was.

Also with Bonds in particular it's even more difficult because he was on his way to a HOF career before he started juicing. From all accounts i've read Bonds started around 98, without the roids he obviously wouldn't have set the single season or all time HR records, or have beat Babe Ruths single season Slugging % record. Still he was hitting 30 HR's and Stealing 30 Bases every year before he started using Steroids.

This is just my opinion and i know most will disagree with it, but i think these guys should be personally punished; as in charges brought against them if warrented and a lifetime ban from Baseball, but a Hall of Fame without Rose, Bonds and Clemens just seems weird. Mcgwire can stay out he pretty much admitted to taking them his full career and Power Hitting seemed to be pretty much all he done.


I agree with this, and many are being punished because they were part of the era. That era is a big mess, and who knows if any mentioned above will be in. Unless of course somebody already in Cooperstown took them (I believe there were rumors or speculation about Henderson).

Also, I believe that Bud Selig should be banned from Cooperstown as well.


Agreed with everything you said here. I'd never heard of the Henderson rumours, i really hope that's all they were, rumours. The biggest problem that era has caused is the questioning of every single player practically. Another player i've read rumours about is Nolan Ryan, mostly stemming from his unusally long career as a pitcher (or in general) and his post 40 success. Hendersons Base Stealing records may have also have called him into question, unless there's more to it?

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811361
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
now, we have another issue with the hall. that is the steroid era. I mean a-rod, mcquire, Conseco, Clemens, bonds, and others. the cheaters. I wouldn't let them in either. and, furthermore their records should not be allowed. selig erred for not dealing with the problem. he should have been on top of it.

how do you stand on this steroid situation?



There's the old saying about Vietnam: if you're not confused, you don't understand the situation. That's the steroids to me - on the one hand McGwire has 11% of the vote, on the other his manager in Oakland and St Louis walks in on the first ballot. It's ridiculous.

Basically, I'm in favor of rewriting the rule, "Voting shall be based upon the player's record, playing ability, integrity, sportsmanship, character, and contributions to the team(s) on which the player played," to something sportswriters can deal with. Make it clear that "sportsmanship" means that you didn't spike guys for fun, and get rid of the words integrity and character unless you want to have ethicists do an initial screening or something.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #811362
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Make it clear that "sportsmanship" means that you didn't spike guys for fun, and get rid of the words integrity and character unless you want to have ethicists do an initial screening or something.

There you go. This way the moralists (most of whom are hypocrites anyway) can't hijack the whole thing.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811370
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: Camarel
The steroid issue is much tougher to deal with imo. While i personally think that until evidence can be shown that Rose threw games, he should be allowed; with Steroids it's not exactly clear who did and didn't take them and what effect they took from them. I mean what if Clemens, Sosa, Mcgwire, Bonds, etc are banned and a few elite players like Griffey Jr, Maddux, R.Johnson, etc make it simply because they were never caught? Just to clarify i'm not accusing any of those guys, it's just difficult to be sure with how messed up that era was.

Also with Bonds in particular it's even more difficult because he was on his way to a HOF career before he started juicing. From all accounts i've read Bonds started around 98, without the roids he obviously wouldn't have set the single season or all time HR records, or have beat Babe Ruths single season Slugging % record. Still he was hitting 30 HR's and Stealing 30 Bases every year before he started using Steroids.

This is just my opinion and i know most will disagree with it, but i think these guys should be personally punished; as in charges brought against them if warrented and a lifetime ban from Baseball, but a Hall of Fame without Rose, Bonds and Clemens just seems weird. Mcgwire can stay out he pretty much admitted to taking them his full career and Power Hitting seemed to be pretty much all he done.


I agree with this, and many are being punished because they were part of the era. That era is a big mess, and who knows if any mentioned above will be in. Unless of course somebody already in Cooperstown took them (I believe there were rumors or speculation about Henderson).

Also, I believe that Bud Selig should be banned from Cooperstown as well.


Agreed with everything you said here. I'd never heard of the Henderson rumours, i really hope that's all they were, rumours. The biggest problem that era has caused is the questioning of every single player practically. Another player i've read rumours about is Nolan Ryan, mostly stemming from his unusally long career as a pitcher (or in general) and his post 40 success. Hendersons Base Stealing records may have also have called him into question, unless there's more to it?


I thought that Canseco said something around the time Henderson was being inducted. But, I did find this interesting report. Does not say or speculate which player though. I honestly would think it would be a teammate of Canesco.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/0...e-hall-of-fame/

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #811373
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: Camarel
The steroid issue is much tougher to deal with imo. While i personally think that until evidence can be shown that Rose threw games, he should be allowed; with Steroids it's not exactly clear who did and didn't take them and what effect they took from them. I mean what if Clemens, Sosa, Mcgwire, Bonds, etc are banned and a few elite players like Griffey Jr, Maddux, R.Johnson, etc make it simply because they were never caught? Just to clarify i'm not accusing any of those guys, it's just difficult to be sure with how messed up that era was.

Also with Bonds in particular it's even more difficult because he was on his way to a HOF career before he started juicing. From all accounts i've read Bonds started around 98, without the roids he obviously wouldn't have set the single season or all time HR records, or have beat Babe Ruths single season Slugging % record. Still he was hitting 30 HR's and Stealing 30 Bases every year before he started using Steroids.

This is just my opinion and i know most will disagree with it, but i think these guys should be personally punished; as in charges brought against them if warrented and a lifetime ban from Baseball, but a Hall of Fame without Rose, Bonds and Clemens just seems weird. Mcgwire can stay out he pretty much admitted to taking them his full career and Power Hitting seemed to be pretty much all he done.


I agree with this, and many are being punished because they were part of the era. That era is a big mess, and who knows if any mentioned above will be in. Unless of course somebody already in Cooperstown took them (I believe there were rumors or speculation about Henderson).

Also, I believe that Bud Selig should be banned from Cooperstown as well.


Agreed with everything you said here. I'd never heard of the Henderson rumours, i really hope that's all they were, rumours. The biggest problem that era has caused is the questioning of every single player practically. Another player i've read rumours about is Nolan Ryan, mostly stemming from his unusally long career as a pitcher (or in general) and his post 40 success. Hendersons Base Stealing records may have also have called him into question, unless there's more to it?


I thought that Canseco said something around the time Henderson was being inducted. But, I did find this interesting report. Does not say or speculate which player though. I honestly would think it would be a teammate of Canesco.

http://hardballtalk.nbcsports.com/2013/0...e-hall-of-fame/


Great article Bam thanks for thst. I know the comments on this are as good as citing YT comments, but the consensus seems to be that it's either about Wade Boggs or Roger Clemens. It seems a little weird how these allegations are so restricted to blogs.

Here's a guy trying to analyze Boswells statement and come up with the most likely candidates; and he indeed says Henderson was the most likely; but he points out himself that he's largely relying on the fact that Henderson was Cansecos teammate. This was Boswells statement -

"There was another player now in the Hall of Fame who literally stood with me and mixed something and I said "What's that?" and he said "it's a Jose Canseco milkshake". And that year that Hall of Famer hit more home runs than ever hit any other year.

So it wasn't just Canseco, and so one of the reasons that I thought that it was an important subject was that it was spreading. It was already spreading by 1988."


This is his opinion on Henderson and the link below it.

This may stretch Boswell's definition a bit, but it technically fits. Rickey's 28 home runs in 1990 is indeed his career best, but he also hit the same number in 1986. Even so, I think the Rickey 1990 season fits Boswell's claim the best. After all, Rickey is the only one on this list who was an actual teammate of Canseco at the time he hit the home runs, and 1990 is really the height of the Bash Brothers and that Oakland squad. It'd also make some sense for Boswell, who had made Canseco and the A's a special subject of his, to be close enough to an Oakland player to be able to witness something like that.

I hope I don't need to say that I'm not actually accusing Rickey or Cal or Sandberg or anyone else of using steroids. I have no clue just how accurate or precise Boswell's claim was in the documentary. It's very possible that a more nuanced statement from Boswell would make this investigation completely worthless by the addition of just one key detail.

As it is, though, there are only eight possible players who he could be talking about. Of those eight, the three most likely candidates are Andre Dawson in his 1987 MVP season, Cal Ripken, Jr., in his 1991 MVP season or Rickey Henderson in his 1990 MVP season. Ryne Sandberg's 40 home run season in 1990 could also raise some eyebrows. It'd certainly be nice to hear Boswell, who has been investigating steroids in baseball longer than anyone and who obviously has some important inside knowledge, be a little more specific about what he knows, but that's probably not going to happen for a number of years still. In the meantime, all we can do is speculate over the hints that he drops.


http://wezen-ball.com/2010-articles/what...milkshakeq.html

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811378
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Ripken would be shocking as hell.I mean he pretty much looked the same for all of his career, and of course holding the record of consecutive games played. And, I honestly would be really sad if Sandberg and Dawson did that. I grew up being a big fan of Sosa, but now I really don't give a damn if he ever shows his face at Wrigley.

Also, I found something about Canseco commenting about Ripken. http://www.midwestsportsfans.com/2009/07...-cal-ripken-jr/

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811380
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bam, the link you gave says that Canseco said is wasn't Henderson. looks like he means ripken. that's sad.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811381
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
bam, the link you gave says that Canseco said is wasn't Henderson. looks like he means ripken. that's sad.

Why is it that you seem to vilify the rats in the organized crime section (like Gravano), yet you're ready to take the word of a piece of shit like Canseco in the sports section? Pretty inconsistent, don't you think?

Ripken's an American hero. Canseco's a lying, drug-addled, Cuban dog.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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read caramel links, I did, and bams link,



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Here's another random blog post that seems to think Ripken took steroids - http://www.truthfromfacts.com/2009/04/13/cal-ripken-and-steroids/ .

In no way am i accusing Ripken but that random blog post brings up a few interesting points. For one Gehrigs, Ironman "unbeatable record" would've been alot more likely to break than Dimaggios "56 Game Record" for instance, because a bad night whether on steroids or not compared to just turning up to bat is a big difference. Here's a large part of the blog with the link below:

So let’s talk about 1996. Remember that 1996 Oriole team? I do, because it was the first time as their fan they made the playoffs. You remember the ’96 team – it’s the one in which 12 year old Jeffrey Maier snatched a long Jeter drive from OF Tony Tarasco, making it a home run. But another highlight of that team and year is that every starter had 20 HR or more, and the Orioles set the then all time record for team home runs.

In 1996, Ripken hit over 50% more homeruns than he did in either of the previous 2 years, or for the rest of his playing career. In 1999, at age 39, he was repeatedly injured, but the .276 career batting average man had a smashing year statistically: .340 b.a., same number of doubles in that partial season as he hit in full seasons towards career end (27) (except for ’96 when he had 40), and was on a 32 homeruns pace over a 600AB season (the most HR he ever had was 34, in his MVP year of 1991). Lest it be overlooked, Ripken holds the MLB consecutive games played streak, from May 30, 1982 – Sept 20, 1998. That huge guy (6’4″, 193cm) played the hardest position physically after pitcher and catcher, and kept the energy up for every game.

This proves nothing, but Ripken’s sidestepping the steriods question in 2006 doesn’t help make sense of his secure place during the steroids era.

But Cal’s remarks in 2006 are of the same ‘gee whiz’ nature that convicted steroid users use when lying about or minimizing extent of their usage, e.g.:

“I’m curious [whether McQuire used steroids], but I don’t feel that I’m in a position to judge,” Ripken said at the baseball winter meetings. “History will judge us all in some way. And, if you’re content with the truth coming out, then whether your judgment day is now or 50 years from now doesn’t matter.”

“A smarter person will have suspicions when you look around and see people coming back a lot bigger than they were,” he said. “I realize that steroids were an issue in other sports. But no way did I know it was as big as it’s starting to show it was.”

“I think we all were very disappointed that steroids came flying out into the game of baseball. The integrity of the game was in question,” Ripken said. “It’s sad that a cloud is over baseball. Maybe the whole story has not been told yet. I believe the story will come out in time.”



http://www.truthfromfacts.com/2009/04/13/cal-ripken-and-steroids/

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #811386
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
bam, the link you gave says that Canseco said is wasn't Henderson. looks like he means ripken. that's sad.

Why is it that you seem to vilify the rats in the organized crime section (like Gravano), yet you're ready to take the word of a piece of shit like Canseco in the sports section? Pretty inconsistent, don't you think?

Ripken's an American hero. Canseco's a lying, drug-addled, Cuban dog.



Again just to clarif PB i'm not accusing Ripken of anything, just reading various accounts from this era and trying to make sense of this mess.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811387
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
bam, the link you gave says that Canseco said is wasn't Henderson. looks like he means ripken. that's sad.

Why is it that you seem to vilify the rats in the organized crime section (like Gravano), yet you're ready to take the word of a piece of shit like Canseco in the sports section? Pretty inconsistent, don't you think?

Ripken's an American hero. Canseco's a lying, drug-addled, Cuban dog.



Again just to clarif PB i'm not accusing Ripken of anything, just reading various accounts from this era and trying to make sense of this mess.

I know that, Cam smile.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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caramel, good link, no one will ever know, but, Canseco isn't the only one, who questions ripken. it would be sad if its true.

as big a hero that he is.



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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
caramel, good link, no one will ever know, but, Canseco isn't the only one, who questions ripken. it would be sad if its true.

as big a hero that he is.


That era has been completely 'tarred and feathered'. Until there's some way to completely clear certain players there will always be an asterisk at their name. One thing i've always been confused about is Ken Griffey Jr. escaping accusations, if he was totally clean then i think he deserves alot more consideration as one of the greatest ever.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811394
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Ok some players used steroids to gain an advantage playing the game. Those are the cheaters like Canseco

On the other hand players used steroids to heal from injuries faster not to gain an advantage playing the game. Was Ripken possibly one of those maybe.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Footreads] #811395
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Originally Posted By: Footreads
Ok some players used steroids to gain an advantage playing the game. Those are the cheaters like Canseco

On the other hand players used steroids to heal from injuries faster not to gain an advantage playing the game. Was Ripken possibly one of those maybe.






Ripken is the hardest one to debate because most accept that alot of the elite players juiced to prolong their careers rather than improve their game, with a few notable exceptions. The accusations brought upon Ripken are accusing him of breaking a legendary Baseball record through PED'S. Still there's not one bit of evidence for the rumours, and when Jose Canseco hasn't named him; i think it's pretty safe to give him the benifit of the doubt until the next round of accusations .

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811403
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well, what about a " steroid era" a legitmate one. like the " dead ball era." or a special place for the steroid eras records.

maybe that would work.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811404
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
caramel, good link, no one will ever know, but, Canseco isn't the only one, who questions ripken. it would be sad if its true.

as big a hero that he is.


That era has been completely 'tarred and feathered'. Until there's some way to completely clear certain players there will always be an asterisk at their name. One thing i've always been confused about is Ken Griffey Jr. escaping accusations, if he was totally clean then i think he deserves alot more consideration as one of the greatest ever.


I only seen Griffey played during the later years of the Reds. I could be really wrong, but he looked the same body build wise as he did in Seattle. At this point I believe he was clean, and it's a big shame those injuries took a lot out of him.

Another player that pretty much escaped accusations, and has been vocal about getting rid of steroids in the game is Frank Thomas. He also pretty much looked the same through out his career.

Also, to PB. I take everything from Cancesco with a grain of salt. I still believe or want to believe that there are a lot of players who are not using.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811405
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The "dead ball era" still had Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner, both first ever ballot Hall of Famers, and pretty much consensus top 10 of all time; Tris Speaker is another from this era that hovers about there. Then you have Cy Young and Christy Mathewson usually rated as top 10 Pitchers of all time, from the "dead ball" era. With all the talk of Bumgamer's WS Complete Game Shutout, Mathewson produced three shutouts in five games in the 1905 Series!

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Camarel] #811406
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Originally Posted By: Camarel
The "dead ball era" still had Ty Cobb and Honus Wagner, both first ever ballot Hall of Famers, and pretty much consensus top 10 of all time; Tris Speaker is another from this era that hovers about there. Then you have Cy Young and Christy Mathewson usually rated as top 10 Pitchers of all time, from the "dead ball" era. With all the talk of Bumgamer's WS Complete Game Shutout, Mathewson produced three shutouts in five games in the 1905 Series!


Don't forget the likes of Walter Johnson, and 'Three Finger' Brown. I just got done watching the 2nd part of Ken Burns Baseball, and that era was just crazy. Especially the 1908 National League pennant race between the NY Giants and Chicago Cubs.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811437
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well, Canseco is not one to take as a source, so he is probably lying about ripken, the steroid era was a big black to major league baseball. and that is a shame.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811543
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
well, Canseco is not one to take as a source, so he is probably lying about ripken, the steroid era was a big black to major league baseball. and that is a shame.


It's a big shame, and it will effect the current era as well as we can see with the likes of A-Rod and Braun.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811553
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well, bam thank you for the link you provided it was great.
as far as arod goes I hope he stays away from the game forever.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811560
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100% rose belongs, who does not gamble...he did not fix games to anyone's knowledge..been punished enough..

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811563
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
well, bam thank you for the link you provided it was great.
as far as arod goes I hope he stays away from the game forever.


No problem, and I want him gone as well. A disgrace to the game.

http://www.si.com/mlb/2014/11/03/alex-rodriguez-cousin-yuri-sucart-peds

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811564
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what a great link. I wish everyone could see that. can you imagine such a low-life. he's shameless.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #811794
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Good point with Walter Johnson Bam, i always associate him with the start of the live-ball Era because that's when he won his title. He was clearly the elite pitcher of the Deadball Era though.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814523
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Getting back to Rose, of course he belongs in the Hall. Those who banned him were concerned about the imagine if the game, what kind of message they were sending if nothing was done about Rose's gambling. Juan Marichal hit a guy (John Rosboro) over the head with a bat, cracked his skull open, exposed his brain. Roberto Alomar spit in an umpires face. One could have been charged with assault with a deadly weapon, the other shows complete contempt for authority and common decency and they're both in the HOF. What does that do for the imGe of the game, what message do thise acts send out? Rose should be in because he was one of the greatest players ever, at several positions, for a lot of years. And while he is suspected of betting on the Reds, there is no actual proof.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814528
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well, to be perfectly honest, pete rose never used steroids, everything he did he did with natural ability.

those who were juiced and set records did far worse than rose, when I started this thread I didn't think he belonged in the hall, but, in view of what others have done, Clemens lying to congress, bonds juicing for years, mcquire, sosa, more than i can mention.

I now think juicers have shamed baseball far more than rose,I say let rose in on the strength of his achievments, but don't let arod in.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814534
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Rose's detractors claim that he harmed the "integrity of the game." How does betting on games, after he retired constitute harming the integrity of the game, but players who juiced, such as Barry Bonds, did not. I have heard commentators (ie. Bob Costas) claim that they can justify voting for Bonds into the Hall of Fame, but not Rose....I just can't bring myself to understand that kind of twisted logic.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814537
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I agree oldschool. If people like Bonds, McGwire, and Sosa get in and Pete doesn't it's truly a damn shame.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814554
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let ROSE in, don't ever let arod in!



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814558
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If people want to hang their hats on the "Pete was no 'roider," argument, they're liable to be very disappointed in the long run. His close friend Paul Janszen did time for charges related to steroid distribution and his other friend Tommy Gioiosa ran Gold's Gym when it was a school for steroids use. Pete says he didn't use, but Pete lies about pretty much everything:

http://sports.espn.go.com/espn/eticket/story?page=steroids&num=2


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814561
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Pete "may" have used steroids, but we know that Bonds and others did...why is there a double standard?

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: oldschool3] #814562
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
Pete "may" have used steroids, but we know that Bonds and others did...why is there a double standard?

Because everyone has a selective memory when it comes to their favorites. If Bonds wasn't such a colossal douchebag as a human being, people would be more likely to look the other way. Same goes for A-Roid. But as much as I loathe Bonds, I'll say this for him: He's still a God in San Francisco. A-Roid is hated everywhere he goes.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814590
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Bonds was 1000 times the player A-Roid is. Bonds was already a 1st ballot Hall of Famer when he first started juicing in 1998. As i said earlier his Single Season and All Time HR Records should be wiped, as well as his Single Season Slugging % record but other than that he's a member of the Hall of Fame on merit. McGwire and Sosa are the epitome of the Steroid Generation, decent ball players that used steroids to become superstars. Neither should ever be in the HOF, McGwire in particular who claimed that he took Steroids practically all his career for health purposes rolleyes .

There's no reason at all to ban Rose from the HOF, first it was he could have been betting against his team, and apparently it's now he may have been juicing rolleyes . No proof to be seen of course, and if anyone seriously believes that there's no Juicers or Managers that manipulated their teams results for profits in the HOF, then i have a bridge for sale.

What about Gaylord Perry in the HOF? A guy who by his own admission cheated for most of his career, for whatever reason Perry admitting that he cheated is not the same as Rose possibly cheating rolleyes .

Gaylord Perry threw the spitball, an illegal pitch that was outlawed in 1920.

It was common knowledge that Perry used the spitball, which he learned from Bob Shaw in 1964 when they were teammates with the San Francisco Giants.

There were many attempts to catch Perry in the act of "loading up." Most caused great controversy, but none ever resulted in positive proof.

Perry relished the attempts to catch him using the illegal pitch since he believed that batters who thought he was throwing the pitch would be adversely affected.

During the 1971 playoffs between the Giants and the Pittsburgh Pirates, a television reporter asked Perry's five-year-old daughter Allison if her father threw the greaseball.

"It's a hard slider," she responded.

Last edited by Camarel; 11/21/14 04:46 AM.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814634
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Pete Rose juicing? I just don't see that one.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814637
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yeah, Dixie, I can't see it. he started in 1964 and played into the eighties, he earned his place without cheating. unlike others. like aroid. I changed my mind, he belongs in the hall.
no to the juicers.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814675
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how can you justify Bonds in the HOF but not Sosa or McGwire?...you either juiced or you didn't....and by judging from the size of Bonds' melon alone...he was a big juice junkie smile

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #814683
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if you allow one juicer in then you really have a problem. and if you let them all in, then you are letting in cheaters. and the hall of fame is a joke.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: oldschool3] #814689
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
how can you justify Bonds in the HOF but not Sosa or McGwire?...you either juiced or you didn't....and by judging from the size of Bonds' melon alone...he was a big juice junkie smile


I see what you're saying, but as i said earlier it's not exactly clear who did and didn't juice. Without a doubt there are current and future members of the HOF who used steroids. Going back to my earlier example of Gaylord Perry, why is he a member of the HOF? He readily admitted cheating his entire career, going as far as naming his autobiography after it. It's also not as if it was a minor flaw in the rules he exploited or a recent addition, it directly improved his pitches just like PEDS's would someones batting,baserunning,pitching,etc, and the rule was introduced 40+ years before he debuted.

Again from everything i've read Bonds started juicing around 1998, if you have anything that contradicts this then i'd genuinely be interested in seeing it. Now going on the assumption that this is the case, using his full Pirates career and his first 5 with the Giants while factoring in a natural decline, Bonds was HOF already. He was consistently hitting 30+ HR's and stealing 30+ bases with a decent Batting Average and an excellent Slugging %. I honestly don't care if he makes the HOF (he wont) or not, but to say he isn't deserving is incredibly narrowminded imo. As PB said he's not a very nice person, but what he did in his career pre-juice is without a doubt HOF material.

Regarding Sosa and McGwire, i suppose an argument could be made for Sosa. In no way does McGwire deserve it though, the guy admitted he took PED'S for the majority of his career, meaning we pratically never saw him at his unaided capacity. Again Bonds proved himself without PED'S, while McGwire is pretty much the reason why this era is so seedy. Outside of power hitting McGwire did nothing at all, which i think shows how much he needed PED's, even with them he could only hit Homeruns.

Now i know that what i said above, is pretty contridictary but it's pretty much the way i see things.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #815099
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The official ballot is out for next year's Hall of Fame class:

http://m.mlb.com/news/article/102250514/...-of-fame-ballot

It should be easy for people to come up with the maximum ten names. These guys I think everyone should be voting for:

Johnson
Martinez
Smoltz
L. Smith
Biggio
Piazza
Bagwell
Schilling

The last two votes I'd probably give to Tim Raines because he still has a shot and is running out of time, and Larry Walker because he was just way too good to be in danger of falling off the ballot.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #817768
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
The Hall of Fame announced its Golden Era ballot for players whose careers peaked 1947-72:

http://baseballhall.org/hall-of-fame/2015-golden-era-committee-ballot



Committee elects no one. Oliva, Allen, Kaat, Wills, Minoso had some support. Back in three years.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817782
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what about gil hodges? is he in yet?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817783
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I still can't understand how so many great players are still left out of the Hall.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #817787
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233
I still can't understand how so many great players are still left out of the Hall.


it started out as a great thing, but now it's almost ridiculous, biil james wrote a book called "the hall of fame"
he mentions in his book how tinker, evers, and chance got in the hall of fame because of a poem, none were ever great in their playing days.

he goes on to mention many that are in, don't belong in, and many that belong in are left out. it' a great book about the hall of fame.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817790
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Binnie do you mean instesd, Whatever happened to the Hall of Fame book? If so great book.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817820
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bean, it was written by bill james, a baseball researcher,
it may still be available, maybe amazon. it's really well worth reading. im sure it's titled 'the hall of fame"



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817886
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
what about gil hodges? is he in yet?


Hodges was on this ballot, but didn't do well.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #817889
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can't figure out why he isn't in. robinson is, reese is, campanella is, snider is. don't seem fair.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #818061
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
can't figure out why he isn't in. robinson is, reese is, campanella is, snider is. don't seem fair.


Maybe he pissed off the wrong people or something.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #818112
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Pete Rose was never confused for a humble man, and that didn't and doesn't sit well with a lot of the sniveling liberal sports writers who vote for the Hall. They can contort themselves into a pretzel to support players like Barry Bonds, who by any measure, violated the integrity of the game, but someone like Rose is totally stonewalled.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #818117
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pete rose gambled, but, he did't cheat by doing steroids.all of pete rose's records were earned. bonds and the rest were cheaters, and, as far as im concerned the juicers records should be erased. and gil hodges should be in the hall.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #820569
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
no, he gambled on games when he was manager of the cincinatti reds, which means he could and most likely did influence the result of games. in spite of his glorious records,

his character is seriously flawed.



There were many posts I could have quoted, but I just chose this since it was the first one. Many people claimed that he "influenced games" and "threw games" because of his gambling. BUT that is completely untrue. He bet on the Reds to win EVERY time he bet. He never bet against them. That is fact, read up on it. If anything, that would only make him manage better and want to win more. His focus would have been on his team winning only. Who cares if he bet on his team to win? Put him in the Hall of Fame.


George Washington was in a cult, and the cult was into aliens, man.

-Slater "Dazed and Confused"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #820894
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yes, that was an old post of mine, and I have since changed my mind about rose. he belongs in the hall of fame, the liars, and juicers did more to hurt baseball than he ever did.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #820903
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Sportswriters have to submit their Hall of Fame ballots to the Hall of Fame today. This website has been collecting votes as writers have been revealing them in their columns:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand

With 90 ballots (out of more than 500) revealed so far, this is how the voting looks:

98.9% - P. Martinez
98.9 - R. Johnson
87.8 - Smoltz
82.2 - Biggio
78.9 - Piazza

75% required for induction

73.3 - Bagwell
64.4 - Raines
57.8 - Schilling
45.6 - Bonds
44.4 - Clemens
41.1 - Mussina
28.9 - E. Martinez
22.2 - Trammell
17.8 - Lee Smith
16.7 - McGriff
13.3 - Kent
6.7 - L. Walker
6.7 - McGwire
5.6 - Sheffield
5.6 - Sosa

5% required to stay on the ballot next year

1.1 - Garciaparra
1.1 - Mattingly
1.1 - Delgado

The ballots revealed before the formal announcement have usually run above the final numbers, so right now it looks like Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and John Smoltz will be inducted, Craig Biggio has a good chance, Mike Piazza is iffy, and Jeff Bagwell has an uphill fight. On the other end, guys like Larry Walker, McGwire, Sheffield, and Sosa are in danger of dropping off the ballot next year.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #821063
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Sportswriters have to submit their Hall of Fame ballots to the Hall of Fame today. This website has been collecting votes as writers have been revealing them in their columns:

http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/newsstand

With 90 ballots (out of more than 500) revealed so far, this is how the voting looks:

98.9% - P. Martinez
98.9 - R. Johnson
87.8 - Smoltz
82.2 - Biggio
78.9 - Piazza

75% required for induction

73.3 - Bagwell
64.4 - Raines
57.8 - Schilling
45.6 - Bonds
44.4 - Clemens
41.1 - Mussina
28.9 - E. Martinez
22.2 - Trammell
17.8 - Lee Smith
16.7 - McGriff
13.3 - Kent
6.7 - L. Walker
6.7 - McGwire
5.6 - Sheffield
5.6 - Sosa

5% required to stay on the ballot next year

1.1 - Garciaparra
1.1 - Mattingly
1.1 - Delgado

The ballots revealed before the formal announcement have usually run above the final numbers, so right now it looks like Pedro Martinez, Randy Johnson, and John Smoltz will be inducted, Craig Biggio has a good chance, Mike Piazza is iffy, and Jeff Bagwell has an uphill fight. On the other end, guys like Larry Walker, McGwire, Sheffield, and Sosa are in danger of dropping off the ballot next year.


Is there a reason why Schilling is this low?

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #821064
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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #821070
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233

Is there a reason why Schilling is this low?


The voters can only pick ten guys on the ballot. 9th overall, 4th pitcher is pretty good on a ballot that's stacked like this one.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822473
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Voting was announced today. Randy Johnson, Pedro Martinez, John Smoltz and Craig Biggio are in. Mike Piazza came in just under 70%. Getting four guys in this year will help with the backlog of worthy candidates next year.

Here's who is likely eligible for 2016; Ken Griffey is probably the only HOF-worthy candidate of all the first time candidates - http://www.baseball-reference.com/awards/hof_2016.shtml

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822484
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The full vote (549 ballots cast):


Votes Player Percentage
534 Randy Johnson 97.3%
500 Pedro Martinez 91.1%
455 John Smoltz 82.9%
454 Craig Biggio 82.7%

384 Mike Piazza 69.9%
306 Jeff Bagwell 55.7%
302 Tim Raines 55.0%
215 Curt Schilling 39.2%
206 Roger Clemens 37.5%
202 Barry Bonds 36.8%
166 Lee Smith 30.2%
148 Edgar Martinez 27.0%
138 Alan Trammell 25.1%
135 Mike Mussina 24.6%
77 Jeff Kent 14.0%
71 Fred McGriff 12.9%
65 Larry Walker 11.8%
64 Gary Sheffield 11.7%
55 Mark McGwire 10.0%
50 Don Mattingly 9.1%
36 Sammy Sosa 6.6%
30 Nomar Garciaparra 5.5%

21 Carlos Delgado 3.8%
4 Troy Percival 0.7%
2 Aaron Boone 0.4%
2 Tom Gordon 0.4%
1 Darin Erstad 0.2%
0 Rich Aurilia 0.0%
0 Tony Clark 0.0%
0 Jermaine Dye 0.0%
0 Cliff Floyd 0.0%
0 Brian Giles 0.0%
0 Eddie Guardado 0.0%
0 Jason Schmidt 0.0%

Piazza's pretty well-positioned for next year. The biggest surprise, to me, is probably that Carlos Delgado is the only significant player to fall off the ballot with less than 5%. Mattingly drops off after exhausting his 15 years on the ballot.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822499
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why only 39% for schillings, anybody?



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822507
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On this year's ballot, he probably the fifth or sixth best pitcher listed. I think his numbers will improve in the next two years -- three of those pitchers aren't on the ballot next year, plus the 2016 and 2017 ballots have very few worthy first time candidates.

I think Piazza, Griffey and possibly Raines get in next year, particularly since 2017 is Raines' last year on the ballot. In 2017, Ivan Rodriguez is probably the best first timer, but I don't think he gets in the first try. That might be the best shot for Schilling and Bagwell.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822517
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
why only 39% for schillings, anybody?


Steroids notwithstanding, he didn't get in for the same reason that Clemens and Bonds didn't. Politics. He made a lot of enemies.

Also why Ted Williams had a relatively low percentage of gaining entry. Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club. Many baseball writers didn't like him because of his caustic personality.


.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: SC] #822523
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Originally Posted By: SC
Also why Ted Williams had a relatively low percentage of gaining entry. Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club. Many baseball writers didn't like him because of his caustic personality.

I agree with that to a degree, SC. I've read that away from the game and the media that Williams was a sweetheart and a MUCH nicer guy than DiMaggio. But DiMaggio knew how to work the media. Williams didn't give a shit about kowtowing to a bunch of leech reporters. Good for him!

And as an aside, Willie Mays was the best ALL AROUND outfielder of your lifetime.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #822524
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
And as an aside, Willie Mays was the best ALL AROUND outfielder of your lifetime.


Mays was a better fielder, but without a doubt Teddy Ballgame was the greatest player of my lifetime.


.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822527
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well, willie mays could do everything, hit, field, great arm, stole bases, but, just as a pure hitter its Williams, he hit .388 when he was in his late thirties, and hit 38 homers when he was 38. greatest pure hitter ever. willie, best all around ballplayer ever.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #822529
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: SC
Also why Ted Williams had a relatively low percentage of gaining entry. Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club. Many baseball writers didn't like him because of his caustic personality.

I agree with that to a degree, SC. I've read that away from the game and the media that Williams was a sweetheart and a MUCH nicer guy than DiMaggio. But DiMaggio knew how to work the media. Williams didn't give a shit about kowtowing to a bunch of leech reporters. Good for him!

And as an aside, Willie Mays was the best ALL AROUND outfielder of your lifetime.


Was it Williams that stopped tipping his cap at the crowd after the fans booed him in of his first seasons? I thought I remember him saying that in Ken Burns Baseball, but not 100% sure.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #822534
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Originally Posted By: SC
Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club.


Originally Posted By: pizzaboy

And as an aside, Willie Mays was the best ALL AROUND outfielder of your lifetime.


Mays gets dinged some because he ran out of steam by the time he got back to New York, but I think he and Honus Wagner were the only guys among the really great offensive players who were still playing well at an "up the middle" position in their late 30s. Pretty much everyone else had either shifted down to an easier position or was just getting by on defensive reputation by the time they were 35.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: BAM_233] #822537
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Originally Posted By: BAM_233
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: SC
Also why Ted Williams had a relatively low percentage of gaining entry. Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club. Many baseball writers didn't like him because of his caustic personality.

I agree with that to a degree, SC. I've read that away from the game and the media that Williams was a sweetheart and a MUCH nicer guy than DiMaggio. But DiMaggio knew how to work the media. Williams didn't give a shit about kowtowing to a bunch of leech reporters. Good for him!

And as an aside, Willie Mays was the best ALL AROUND outfielder of your lifetime.


Was it Williams that stopped tipping his cap at the crowd after the fans booed him in of his first seasons? I thought I remember him saying that in Ken Burns Baseball, but not 100% sure.


Williams did more than that, one time after hitting a home run he spit up at the press box at fenway park.

the writers didn't like him at all, but, it didn't take away from his great hitting.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822586
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Good to see Johnson and Martinez make the Hall. The most encouraging thing about the voting is that Bonds isn't far off making it; i really didn't expect that. I still dont think he'll ever make it but it's good to see some people vote outside the Medias influence.

I'll say it again a HOF with Gaylord Perry, and without Barry Bonds is irrelevant. Bonds was 1st Ballot before he started using Roids, Perry prided himself on the fact that he cheated his entire career. One made history, the other became an outskirts Hall of Famer.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #822664
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Bonds is a fraud, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the HOF in my humble opinion...and with the size that his roided up melon has become, he couldn't fit his head in the door anyway.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: SC] #822691
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Originally Posted By: SC
Williams was the best ballplayer of my lifetime and he didn't make the 95% club.


That shows you why Cooperstown is a joke these days. You have to have an axe to grind like you said if you think Ted Williams did NOT deserve to be in the HOF.

As for Ken Griffey Jr. he better be a first timer as well, kid was one of the biggest phenoms in the modern era to basically come straight out of h.s. and was in the MLB's in no time.

I remember I was 9 or 10 when his Upper Deck Rookie Card was the hottest card around. That was about the only card of the 80's to hold value lol

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: oldschool3] #822692
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
Bonds is a fraud, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the HOF in my humble opinion...and with the size that his roided up melon has become, he couldn't fit his head in the door anyway.


Me and you have had some disagreements in the past but here we are 110% together. While the argument can be said he was a HOF'er before the roids (I think he was too) the fact remains he got on them and that taints him IMHO. Especially if they hold Pete Rose out for something he done after he played, but put Bonds in because of what he done before he cheated? It wouldn't surprise me though. Cooperstown (while I'd like to visit there one time) technically it's a joke.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: oldschool3] #822697
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
Bonds is a fraud, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the HOF in my humble opinion...and with the size that his roided up melon has become, he couldn't fit his head in the door anyway.

clap clap clap clap


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #824934
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Well Rose gave a short interview, and said that the best of the Steroid era should be elected in.

http://www.torontosun.com/2015/01/20/pete-rose-says-best-from-steroids-era-belong-in-hall-of-fame

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #824957
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Yeah, but that's classic Pete Rose advocating Pete Rose. If Bonds, Clemens and to an extent Pettitte and Palmeiro get in, his chances of enshrinement grow tremendously.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #825021
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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
Yeah, but that's classic Pete Rose advocating Pete Rose. If Bonds, Clemens and to an extent Pettitte and Palmeiro get in, his chances of enshrinement grow tremendously.


Of the players you listed, the only one I can see getting in any time soon is Andy Pettitte. Bonds & Clemens alienated too many voters. And Palmeiro will never live down his finger wag from the 2005 congressional hearings.

Pete Rose is a prick. But the HOF has enshrined its share of jackasses, most notably Ty Cobb, the player whom Rose eclipsed on the all-time hits list. Rose has served a longer sentence than athletes who have killed other people. He's done enough time.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825028
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Pettitte helped himself by coming clean on PED use. Other than that, I view him as a borderline candidate, with career numbers akin to Jim Kaat and Tommy John.

At least from the Sun article, it looks like Rose is advocating that Bonds and Clemens get in. Should both Bonds and Clemens get in, Rose builds a sympathy case for reinstatment and induction. After all, if the all time home run king and a top five pitcher get in with their baggage, why can't the all time hits leader?

I think Rose deserves a fair hearing on reinstatment; he has applied four times since 1990 and all have been summarily denied by Fay Vincent and Bud Selig. While I think Selig had an axe to grind, what has bugged me about Rose is that he's always been a bit self-serving, whether it's been his player/manager career to his sudden reversal in 2004 regarding the Dowd Report. Considering he'll be 74 this year, I think Rose only going to amplify his reinstatement campaign.

So let Rose reapply, and come clean and be contrite in a public forum. It would be some interesting filler on MLB Network, and serve as a message to current and future players about the downside of gambling. He probably has the support of a majority of fans. And instead of the Commissioner deciding, let the owners and living Hall of Fame players vote on his reinstatement. That way, his fate isn't in the hands of one person, but a cross-section of baseball's past and present.

Part of Bud Selig's legacy will be tarnished with the PED issues and MLB's slow reaction to implement rules. It's vastly different now - there's a good partnership with the MLBPA to adapt to changes in PEDs - but from at least the McGwire/Sosa chase in 1998 to Bonds breaking Aaron's record in 2007, there were far too many issues with enforcement and leadership from Selig's office. Until a few seasons ago, there were no serious consequences for this cheating - when Palmeiro was caught in 2005, all he received was a 10 day (not game) suspension.

Selig's biggest leadership failure was offloading the investigative work to the Mitchell Report, which not only had significant conflict of interest concerns, but ended up hurting a number of players who might have never touched a PED. Selig didn't even appoint George Mitchell to conduct the investigation until 2006, eight years after Mark McGwire brought Andro in the spotlight.

Now compare that to the Black Sox scandal, which threatened to destroy baseball. Dating back to the early days of the National League, gambling was a threat to the integrity of the game. But the Black Sox scandal was far bigger, in fact the American League was on the verge of folding after the 1920 season. Within a year of the scandal surfacing, clear rules were established regarding gambling with consequences for violators. And it was one of those rules that snared Pete Rose. Were the rules rigid and black-and-white? Probably. But it helped preserve baseball's legitimacy from its most critical time to its current peaks.


Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825032
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selig, wasn't exactly "johnny on the spot" regarding steroid use. he could have served baseball much better if he would have acted much sooner as "its the jackeeetttttt" stated.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825039
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Quote:
Within a year of the scandal surfacing, clear rules were established regarding gambling with consequences for violators. And it was one of those rules that snared Pete Rose. Were the rules rigid and black-and-white? Probably. But it helped preserve baseball's legitimacy from its most critical time to its current peaks
.

Isn't it as clear as a bell that Pete's reinstatement would completely undermine the rule?


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825041
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Probably. But if one looks at Rose's agreement from 1989, MLB never actually made a formal finding that Rose gambled - that was part of the bargain Rose made with Bart Giamatti.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #825142
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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
Probably. But if one looks at Rose's agreement from 1989, MLB never actually made a formal finding that Rose gambled - that was part of the bargain Rose made with Bart Giamatti.


I'm not quarreling with you and my memory of this has defintitely faded since it took place over 25 years ago. But I thought they had Rose with betting slips that proved his guilt? I could be way off on that, but for some reason that sticks in my mind. I'm not saying what Rose did wasn't disagraceful. And Rose has been his own worst enemy. But he's paid for his "crime" and deserves to be considered for the HOF.

And re: Pettitte, I should have been more clear. I was talking about the players you mentioned. But you're right, it's debatable whether Pettitte is HOF-worthy.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825149
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there is going to be a new bb commissioner, maybe he will have a different slant on pete rose than selig, and the rest had.

goombah is right, rose has paid dearly for his discretions, his records prove he should be in.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: goombah] #825158
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Originally Posted By: goombah
Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
Probably. But if one looks at Rose's agreement from 1989, MLB never actually made a formal finding that Rose gambled - that was part of the bargain Rose made with Bart Giamatti.


I'm not quarreling with you and my memory of this has defintitely faded since it took place over 25 years ago. But I thought they had Rose with betting slips that proved his guilt? I could be way off on that, but for some reason that sticks in my mind. I'm not saying what Rose did wasn't disagraceful. And Rose has been his own worst enemy. But he's paid for his "crime" and deserves to be considered for the HOF.

And re: Pettitte, I should have been more clear. I was talking about the players you mentioned. But you're right, it's debatable whether Pettitte is HOF-worthy.


Not a problem at all, and that isn't my intent (and my apologies). I hadn't discovered that quirk in Rose's agreement until last month. It's not an exact comparison, but what Rose did in 1989 was like pleading no contest. He took the ban, with the ability to reapply, and MLB would stop their pursuit of the matter. I think had he kept fighting the investigation, MLB would have laid down a far harsher penalty, such as a permanent ban with no opportunity to apply for reinstatement.

At 25 years of being a pariah, I think Rose's best chance for reinstatement is to quit the oblique interviews and celebrity appearances, and simply reapply. He has a great opportunity now - the All Star Game is in Cincinnati this year and there's a new commissioner.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #825256
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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt


So let Rose reapply, and come clean and be contrite in a public forum. It would be some interesting filler on MLB Network, and serve as a message to current and future players about the downside of gambling. He probably has the support of a majority of fans. And instead of the Commissioner deciding, let the owners and living Hall of Fame players vote on his reinstatement. That way, his fate isn't in the hands of one person, but a cross-section of baseball's past and present.

Part of Bud Selig's legacy will be tarnished with the PED issues and MLB's slow reaction to implement rules. It's vastly different now - there's a good partnership with the MLBPA to adapt to changes in PEDs - but from at least the McGwire/Sosa chase in 1998 to Bonds breaking Aaron's record in 2007, there were far too many issues with enforcement and leadership from Selig's office. Until a few seasons ago, there were no serious consequences for this cheating - when Palmeiro was caught in 2005, all he received was a 10 day (not game) suspension.


I feel as if Rose has done enough to come clean. In 2004, he finally admitted to Selig and in an SI cover story Rose admits betting on baseball. Could it have been a more contrite apology? Sure, but it's been out there for over a decade.

BTW, with your being a Heat fan like me, did you cringe with the Tom Sizemore portrayal of Rose in that made-for-tv movie that aired on ESPN? I thought it was dreadful. It seemed like that was around the time that Sizemore was having some major issues with addiction.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825263
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He had a book coming out at the same time, so there's a bit of skepticism. Then again, for a "permanent ban," MLB never has a problem trotting him out when it suits them - the All-Century Team, the 25th anniversary of breaking Ty Cobb's record, etc.

I may have made it to the opening credits of that ESPN movie, saw it was a cariacture as best and changed the channel. That was about the same time his problems with Heidi Fleiss erupted, and he had a jail sentence around the same time for repeated drug test failures. He was in the series "RHD," another Michael Mann production, but that was swiftly cancelled becaue of Sizemore's problems. I don't believe Mann has had a network series since.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #825592
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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
He had a book coming out at the same time, so there's a bit of skepticism. Then again, for a "permanent ban," MLB never has a problem trotting him out when it suits them - the All-Century Team, the 25th anniversary of breaking Ty Cobb's record,


Thanks for giving more context. I had forgotten about Rose's book. That's been his issue - everything is self-serving.

MLB under Selig has been a constant hypocrisy. I am so glad he will soon be gone as the commissioner. He always struck me as someone who turned a blind eye whenever it suited his own interests. His legacy for me is being the person in charge who allowed a World Series to be cancelled. And then tried to lure fans back under false pretenses with a juiced league.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825726
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As an owner, Selig deserves credit for keeping Milwaukee a viable major league city in the wake of the Braves' relocation to Atlanta. If you look at what a disaster the Seattle Pilots were, his hard work not only allowed that franchise to survive in Milwaukee, but saved MLB from the embarrassment of having a team fold just before Opening Day.

But as a commissioner, the accolades he's receiving are unwarranted. Forget the PED mess and the 1994 strike for a minute. On his watch, he's let Jeffrey Loria gut two franchises, demonstrated disparate treatment of the Mets and Dodgers during their respective financial troubles, let conflicts of interest benefit his team, as well as the contraction controversy in 2001-02. Television revenues have skyrocketed, but I question whether that is sustainable, especially if more consumers ditch cable/satellite.

It will be interesting to see if Rob Manfred will try to set himself apart from Selig, part of which could be re-examining the Pete Rose situation. In the NBA, Adam Silver won praise by demonstrating a different approach than David Stern had, particularly with the Clippers mess.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: oldschool3] #825732
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Originally Posted By: oldschool3
Bonds is a fraud, and doesn't deserve to be anywhere near the HOF in my humble opinion...and with the size that his roided up melon has become, he couldn't fit his head in the door anyway.


Just noticed this, as soon as you come up with a half decent response that touches on anything i said there i'll respond rolleyes .

Barry Bonds has a big head!!!!

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt] #825742
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Originally Posted By: Its_da_Jackeeettttttt
As an owner, Selig deserves credit for keeping Milwaukee a viable major league city in the wake of the Braves' relocation to Atlanta. If you look at what a disaster the Seattle Pilots were, his hard work not only allowed that franchise to survive in Milwaukee, but saved MLB from the embarrassment of having a team fold just before Opening Day.

But as a commissioner, the accolades he's receiving are unwarranted. Forget the PED mess and the 1994 strike for a minute. On his watch, he's let Jeffrey Loria gut two franchises, demonstrated disparate treatment of the Mets and Dodgers during their respective financial troubles, let conflicts of interest benefit his team, as well as the contraction controversy in 2001-02. Television revenues have skyrocketed, but I question whether that is sustainable, especially if more consumers ditch cable/satellite.

It will be interesting to see if Rob Manfred will try to set himself apart from Selig, part of which could be re-examining the Pete Rose situation. In the NBA, Adam Silver won praise by demonstrating a different approach than David Stern had, particularly with the Clippers mess.


I hope that Manfred does a better job when it comes to Rose, as well as taking teams away from owners who are just gutting or having problems. Also, Manfred will have to deal with possible change to the game so it can be sped up a bit. Like a pitch timer.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825857
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personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with a pitch timer. nor do I see anything wrong with telling a batter to quit fooling around, and get in the batters box instead of wasting so much time after every pitch, leaving the batters box, and strutting around.

the game is way to slow as it is now. it needs to be speeded up. and bam you are right , some owners don,t deserve teams.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #825865
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Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
personally, I don't think there is anything wrong with a pitch timer. nor do I see anything wrong with telling a batter to quit fooling around, and get in the batters box instead of wasting so much time after every pitch, leaving the batters box, and strutting around.

the game is way to slow as it is now. it needs to be speeded up. and bam you are right , some owners don,t deserve teams.



I see nothing wrong with speeding up the game either, and yeah I just hope that Loria loses the Marlins soon.

Another thing that has been brought up would be to ban defensive shifts, so there would be more scoring.

http://www.businessinsider.com/rob-manfred-mlb-defensive-shifts-ban-2015-1

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #827683
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Probably. But the thing is people are so quick now to say "Well rose wasn't that bad". If the gambling problems had come out after the steroid era then everybody would he crucifying pete Rose like they are with the steroid users. Many of them used them at a time when it wasn't even illegal in baseball yet. So that's why I hate it when people say what he did wasn't as bad. People say that because it's almost already forgot the by many fans. If it was of recent memory people would have that same outlook. Also, the notion that he's a top 10 hitter of all time is ridiculous imo. He was a compiler. Still a great player that's hof worthy but if he played with the Yankees he'd automatically still be getting killed by the media today and would be viewed as overrated.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #827901
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I don't know if his gambling hurt the Reds, but I can make a case that his managing the Reds (and putting himself in the lineup) in 1985-86 might have cost them at least one playoff chance.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #827902
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Yes, the whole thing is rediculous.

Put him in.


Be Loyal, Be Loving, Be Quiet.
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: pizzaboy] #828272
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Binnie_Coll
mickey mantle never threw games. no yankee ever did.

pete rose did. and that is where the difference lies.

Where's the proof that he ever threw a game?

Mickey Mantle was a bum. So was Babe Ruth, for that matter. Both of them booze addled whore-masters and absentee family men. But they belong in the Hall of Fame based on what they did ON THE FIELD.

And again, where's the proof that Rose ever threw a game? If he did, then I'd be the first one to say that he doesn't belong. But there is no proof, is there?




as some would say "who's being the moralist" now?

i can appreciate the sentiment but what does being a lousy drunk and father got to do with the game?

rose has been a pretty big piece of shit in his own right anyway.

he gambled on his own games. he admitted it. he had a chance to not get a lifetime ban, but he lied to their face. they wanted him to totally admit what they knew was fact, that he bet on his own games. he denied it. they told him he had to admit it or they would ban him for life. he insisted he didn't bet on his games and made his choice, he took the ban. not surprisingly MLB has held him to the bargain he made.

then years later, after finally realizing they weren't BSing about it being a ban for life, he came out and admitted he did in fact bet on his own games.

MLB has so far said "you had your chances and made your choices, now live by them". he asked for what he got.

stick him in after he dies.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #829131
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So Rose is back on the PR tour again, saying he'd love to talk to the new commissioner.

http://espn.go.com/mlb/story/_/id/123140...ifting-life-ban

There's exactly one way to do that - apply for reinstatement.

Seems like this is another hustle by Charlie Hustle.

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Pete Rose submits application to be reinstated to MLB

http://www.nydailynews.com/sports/baseba...ticle-1.2151091

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new report that Rose bet on baseball as a player
6/22/15


http://time.com/3930627/pete-rose-cincinnati-reds-gambling/

While he previously admitted betting as a manager, he denied doing so as a player

Newly obtained documents indicate Pete Rose, the all-time Major League Baseball leader in hits, bet on baseball while he was a player, according to a new report that bats against his 26-year denial of doing so.

ESPN’s Outside the Lines reports that the documents—copies of pages from a notebook of Michael Bertolini, a previous associate of Rose—refutes Rose’s past claims that he only placed bets while he was a manager on the Cincinnati Reds—never as a player. Even that admission came after nearly 15 years of denials; Rose was banned for life from the league in 1989.

The notebook seized from Bertolini’s home covers March to July 1986, with documentation that for at least 30 different days, Rose gambled on at least one MLB team. On 21 of those days, the report notes, Rose bet on the Reds’ games—many of which he was playing in.

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interesting, why did this take so long in coming out?

what else don't we know.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Binnie,

In your book, does the seized notebook count as proof?

Who would keep betting ledger from decades ago? and when was it seized?

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yes, good questions, of course the notebook if in fact is real, it is damning evidence that once again rose was a liar.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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watch or read




William Weinbaum and T.J. Quinn


For 26 years, Pete Rose has kept to one story: He never bet on baseball while he was a player.

Yes, he admitted in 2004, after almost 15 years of denials, he had placed bets on baseball, but he insisted it was only as a manager.
ON OUTSIDE THE LINES TODAY

T.J. Quinn reportsOTL on the notebook that shows Pete Rose bet on baseball as a player, at 2:30 p.m. ET Monday on ESPN.

But new documents obtained by Outside the Lines indicate Rose bet extensively on baseball -- and on the Cincinnati Reds -- as he racked up the last hits of a record-smashing career in 1986. The documents go beyond the evidence presented in the 1989 Dowd report that led to Rose's banishment and provide the first written record that Rose bet while he was still on the field.

"This does it. This closes the door," said John Dowd, the former federal prosecutor who led MLB's investigation.

The documents are copies of pages from a notebook seized from the home of former Rose associate Michael Bertolini during a raid by the U.S. Postal Inspection Service in October 1989, nearly two months after Rose was declared permanently ineligible by Major League Baseball. Their authenticity has been verified by two people who took part in the raid, which was part of a mail fraud investigation and unrelated to gambling. For 26 years, the notebook has remained under court-ordered seal and is currently stored in the National Archives' New York office, where officials have declined requests to release it publicly.

Rose, through his lawyer, Raymond Genco, issued a statement: "Since we submitted the application earlier this year, we committed to MLB that we would not comment on specific matters relating to reinstatement. I need to maintain that. To be sure, I'm eager to sit down with [MLB commissioner Rob] Manfred to address my entire history -- the good and the bad -- and my long personal journey since baseball. That meeting likely will come sometime after the All-Star break. Therefore at this point, it's not appropriate to comment on any specifics." Bertolini's lawyer, Nicholas De Feis, said his client is "not interested in speaking to anyone about these issues."
ESPN

Dowd, who reviewed the documents at Outside the Lines' request, said his investigators had tried but failed to obtain Bertolini's records, believing they would be the final piece in their case that Rose was betting with mob-connected bookmakers in New York. Dowd and his team had sworn testimony from bookie Ron Peters that Rose bet on the Reds from 1984 through 1986, but not written documentation. Dowd also had testimony and a recorded phone conversation between Bertolini and another Rose associate, Paul Janszen, that established that Bertolini had placed bets for Rose. But Dowd never had the kind of documents that could cement that part of his case, especially in the eyes of fans who wanted to see Rose returned to Major League Baseball.

"We knew that [Bertolini] recorded the bets, and that he bet himself, but we never had his records. We tried to get them. He refused to give them to us," Dowd said. "This is the final piece of the puzzle on a New York betting operation with organized crime. And, of course, [Rose] betting while he was a player."

The documents obtained by Outside the Lines, which reflect betting records from March through July 1986, show no evidence that Rose, who was a player-manager in 1986, bet against his team. They provide a vivid snapshot of how extensive Rose's betting life was in 1986:

• In the time covered in the notebook, from March through July, Rose bet on at least one MLB team on 30 different days. It's impossible to count the exact number of times he bet on baseball games because not every day's entries are legible.

• But on 21 of the days it's clear he bet on baseball, he gambled on the Reds, including on games in which he played.

• Most bets, regardless of sport, were about $2,000. The largest single bet was $5,500 on the Boston Celtics, a bet he lost.

• Rose bet heavily on college and professional basketball, losing $15,400 on one day in March. That came during his worst week of the four-month span, when he lost $25,500.

Dowd said he wished he'd had the Bertolini notebook in 1989, but he didn't need it to justify Rose's banishment. Under MLB Rule 21, "Any player, umpire, or club or league official or employee, who shall bet any sum whatsoever upon any baseball game in connection with which the bettor has a duty to perform shall be declared permanently ineligible."

But Rose's supporters have based part of their case for his reinstatement on his claim that he never bet while he was a player or against his team, saying that sins he committed as a manager shouldn't diminish what he did as a player.

"The rule says, if you bet, it doesn't say for or against. It's another device by Pete to try to excuse what he did," Dowd said. "But when he bet, he was gone. He placed his financial interest ahead of the Reds, period."

The timing for Rose, who played in 72 games in 1986, isn't great. In March of this year, he applied to Manfred for reinstatement. Dowd recently met with MLB CIO and executive vice president of administration John McHale Jr., who is leading Manfred's review of Rose's reinstatement request, to walk McHale through his investigation. On Monday morning, MLB officials declined to comment about the notebook.

In April, Rose repeated his denial, this time on Michael Kay's ESPN New York 98.7 FM radio show, that he bet on baseball while he was a player. "Never bet as a player: That's a fact," he said.

Outside the Lines tracked down two of the postal inspectors who conducted the raid on Bertolini's home in 1989 and asked them to review the documents. Both agents, former supervisor Craig Barney and former inspector Mary Flynn, said the records were indeed copies of the notebook they seized.

When the case began, it didn't look particularly enticing, Barney said. The postal inspector's office in Brooklyn, New York, had received a complaint that a man in Staten Island had failed to return goods to paying customers that he was supposed to have autographed. The man's name was Michael Bertolini, and the business he ran out of his home was called Hit King Marketing Inc.
ESPN

"It was a mere 'failure to render [services]' complaint," said Barney, who is now retired. "We didn't know anything about Bertolini or his connection [to Rose]."

If the accusation was true, it would constitute mail fraud, but the agents had no probable cause to search Bertolini's house.

Barney sent an agent to drive by the address. There was a for sale sign out front, the agent told him. So Barney and Flynn, posing as a couple looking for a home, called a real estate agent and were given a guided tour of Bertolini's house. "It was such a mess. There was stuff everywhere," Barney said.

Bats, balls, books and papers were scattered all over. It looked to them as if Bertolini had been signing memorabilia with the forged names of some of the most famous baseball players in history: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Duke Snider, Mike Schmidt and Pete Rose. "It reeked of fraud," Barney said.

The two inspectors spotted an item that a complainant said had not been returned. That gave them probable cause to seek a search warrant.

On Oct. 13, a few days after the undercover house tour and after obtaining a search warrant, they searched Bertolini's home and found evidence that would lead to numerous convictions. But one item stood out: In a box of papers in the basement, Barney said, was a spiral notebook filled with handwritten entries.

It was immediately clear that the many notations of "PETE" in the pages represented Pete Rose.

"There were numbers and dates and -- it was a book for sports betting," Barney said. "I was taken aback."

Flynn, who said her first reaction was "Holy mackerel," said they asked Bertolini about the notebook.

"He wasn't forthcoming with much information," she said, "but he did acknowledge to me it was records of bets he made for Pete Rose."

Bertolini offered his take on the raid during his sentencing hearing in U.S. District Court in Brooklyn six years later (he served 14 months for tax fraud and a concurrent assault sentence):

"I got a call at the place where I was working at the time from my brother, and he says, 'You should come home.' He said, 'There's a bunch of government people here, and they're here for you.' At the time, I think it was Mary Flynn of the postal inspector's office who got on the phone and said, 'We're here,' and she told me why and so forth. They took any records I had whatsoever, and they took different personal belongings and memorabilia from my home."
Postal inspectors seized memorabilia from Michael Bertolini's house that contained the names of some of the most famous baseball players in history: Willie Mays, Hank Aaron, Duke Snider, Mike Schmidt and Pete Rose. William Weinbaum/ESPN

Although the 1989 raid on Bertolini's house received immediate news coverage, nothing about a betting book became public for five years. After Bertolini pleaded guilty and received a federal prison sentence, Sports Illustrated, The New York Times, ESPN and other news organizations filed freedom of information requests with the U.S. Attorney's Office seeking access to the book. All were denied on the grounds that the notebook had been introduced as a grand jury exhibit and contained information "concerning third parties who were not of investigative interest."

Last year, Outside the Lines again applied unsuccessfully for access to the notebook but learned it had been transferred to the National Archives under a civil action titled "United States v. One Executive Tools Spiral Notebook." Two small boxes of other items confiscated in the postal raid on Bertolini's house went too, including autographed baseballs and baseball cards.

In April, Outside the Lines examined the Bertolini memorabilia kept in the National Archives' New York office, but the betting book -- held apart from everything else -- was off-limits. The U.S. Attorney's Office internal memorandum from 2000 that requested the spiral notebook's transfer said Bertolini's closed file has "sufficient historical or other value to warrant its continued preservation by the United States Government." The memorandum listed among its attachments a copy of the notebook, but a copy of the memorandum provided by the National Archives had no attachments and had a section redacted.

"I wish I had been able to use it [the book] all those years he was denying he bet on baseball," said Flynn, the former postal inspector. "He's a liar."

To Dowd, one of the most compelling elements of the newly uncovered evidence is that it supports the charge that Rose was betting with mob-connected bookies through Bertolini. Dowd's investigation had established that Rose was hundreds of thousands of dollars in debt at the time he was banished from the game.

"Bertolini nails down the connection to organized crime on Long Island and New York. And that is a very powerful problem," Dowd said. "[Ohio bookie] Ron Peters is a golf pro, so he's got other occupations. But the boys in New York are about breaking arms and knees.

"The implications for baseball are terrible. [The mob] had a mortgage on Pete while he was a player and manager."

Freelance researcher Liam Quinn contributed to this report.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #847381
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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #866038
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The 2016 Hall of Fame ballot is out:

http://bbwaa.com/

I think Griffey, Piazza, Bagwell, and Schilling have to go in. I'd fill out a ballot of ten with Raines, McGriff, Trammell, Walker, Edmonds, and Nomar, but there's lots of guys you could put in those slots.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #866138
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Ken Griffey is 100% in. Greatest home run hitter of all time if he didn't get hurt so often.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: NickyEyes1] #866197
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Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Ken Griffey is 100% in. Greatest home run hitter of all time if he didn't get hurt so often.
One of the great left handed homerun hitter but may be the last power hitter to get it.


From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #869641
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Commissioner's decision in on Pete's latest appeal. He's still barred:

http://mlb.mlb.com/documents/8/4/6/15961...nt_u35dqem0.pdf

The decision, though, contains some curious language:

Quote:
By contrast, the issue of whether Mr. Rose should be eligible for Hall of Fame election under the bylaws of that organization presents an entirely different policy determination that is focused on a range of considerations distinct from the more narrow question before me -- i.e., whether I believe that Mr. Rose's reinstatement would be consonant with the policy rationale underlying Rule 21. Thus, any debate over Mr. Rose's eligibility for the Hall of Fame is one that must take place in a different forum.


It could be construed as MLB telling that Hall that MLB doesn't care if the Hall gets rid of the rule against inducting permanently ineligible players.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: NickyEyes1] #870395
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Originally Posted By: NickyEyes1
Ken Griffey is 100% in. Greatest home run hitter of all time if he didn't get hurt so often.


Interesting little side light in this year's Hall voting, this website:

HOF Tracker

Is tracking votes as sportswriters reveal them in their columns. To date, Griffey is 95-0. It's a long way to go to the 450 or so expected votes, but it's starting to be plausible that he could be the first unanimous inductee. At the very least, he should challenge Tom Seaver's record 98.8% of the vote.

Last edited by mustachepete; 12/23/15 11:01 AM.

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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #870399
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Want to learn how to pitch watch tom Seaver pitch.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #871522
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete


To date, Griffey is 95-0. It's a long way to go to the 450 or so expected votes, but it's starting to be plausible that he could be the first unanimous inductee. At the very least, he should challenge Tom Seaver's record 98.8% of the vote.


This is getting interesting: Griffey is now 152-0 on announced ballots.

Piazza's at 87.4% and looks probable for induction. Bagwell and Raines are both over 80%, but non-public voters tend to be less generous so if they manage to stay over the required 75% it'll be a close thing.

Last edited by mustachepete; 01/04/16 10:18 AM.

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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #871540
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Pete,

thanks...fact that there are no unanimous HOFers so far is one of the reasons why people don't take sportswriters/reporters seriously. they are petty and hold grudges because of perceived or real slights.

I don't recall the full details of the story but Ted Williams either didn't get mvp or didn't get unanimous mvp because some report just didn't like him......and it was in an above average ted williams ....MFers never played the game yet can keep great players out of accolades that they've earned


I know very little about baseball but I do know that Griffey Junior was very well liked and respected in addition to being the last great clean power hitter.
I remember Gary Carter's name came up for the hall several times and reporters mentioned ON THE RADIO how they wouldn't vote for him because he was a phony with the press.
F reporters.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #871763
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Griffey and Piazza selected, with Griffey taking a record 99.3% (437) of the 440 votes cast. Jeff Bagwell, Tim Raines and Trevor Hoffman all take 67-72% of the vote, and are well-positioned for induction next year. McGwire and Trammell drop off the ballot because their time has expired, and Edmonds and Garciaparra drop off because of a lack of votes. Newcomers to the ballot next year will include Vladimir Guerrero, Jorge Posada, Ivan Rodriguez, and Manny Ramirez, so the ballot will remain crowded.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: getthesenets] #871858
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Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Pete,

thanks...fact that there are no unanimous HOFers so far is one of the reasons why people don't take sportswriters/reporters seriously. they are petty and hold grudges because of perceived or real slights.

I don't recall the full details of the story but Ted Williams either didn't get mvp or didn't get unanimous mvp because some report just didn't like him......and it was in an above average ted williams ....MFers never played the game yet can keep great players out of accolades that they've earned


I know very little about baseball but I do know that Griffey Junior was very well liked and respected in addition to being the last great clean power hitter.
I remember Gary Carter's name came up for the hall several times and reporters mentioned ON THE RADIO how they wouldn't vote for him because he was a phony with the press.
F reporters.


I agree, I think they should be voted in by ex-players/coaches instead of reporters. That's the dumbest shit I've ever seen.

What I'd like to see is what idiots didn't vote for Griffey? He had the sweetest left handed swing in the game.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #899262
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The 2017 Hall of Fame ballot is out. Voting to be completed by the end of December, results in mid-January:

http://bbwaa.com/

It's still a crowded ballot - I see 20 guys with reasonable arguments. Bagwell, Raines, and Hoffman were all close last year. Raines and Lee Smith are in their last year on the ballot. If I had a vote, I'd go for Mussina, Schilling, Bagwell, Walker, Raines, Rodriguez, Guerrero, Martinez, McGriff, and Wagner.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #899275
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Yes he bet on his own team to win not to lose.

But rules are rules aren't day.

What about Jim Thorpe they took away all his gold medals in the Olympic Games because he played in a few baseball games where they paid him a few bucks to play.

They paid the dream team in basketball to play in the Olympics.

Paul hornung is in the football hall of fame he bet on his own team.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #899283
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you are right foots, it's all about fairness, Thorpe was done wrong, and should never had his medals taken away , he earned them, and they still don't know if he ever got paid for the ballgames he's accused of playing. and now people get paid for participating in the games, and horning bet on games more than once, but he was a star, one year suspension is all he got, but, rose was betting when he was a manager, he could influence games,with pitching decisions and line-up changes, it seems to be more serious when you are betting as a manager.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #899284
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In soccer you could fail a doping test if you had caffeine.it was considered as a performance enhancing drug.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Footreads] #900551
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[quote=Footreads]In soccer you could fail a doping test if you had caffeine.it was considered as a performance enhancing drug. [/quote

that seems ridiculous.

Last edited by Binnie_Coll; 12/04/16 12:58 AM.


" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #900654
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One of the Hall's myriad special committees met today and inducted Bud Selig and former Braves and Royals executive John Schuerholz. I wouldn't have voted for either, but then they wouldn't have put me on the committee:

http://baseballhall.org/hof/class-of-2017


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #900663
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
One of the Hall's myriad special committees met today and inducted Bud Selig and former Braves and Royals executive John Schuerholz. I wouldn't have voted for either, but then they wouldn't have put me on the committee:

http://baseballhall.org/hof/class-of-2017


never liked selig,



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #902624
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
The 2017 Hall of Fame ballot is out. Voting to be completed by the end of December, results in mid-January:


As in previous years, a website is tracking Hall of Fame votes as baseball writers announce who is on their ballots:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!7731&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AE2Lu5P1f92OW8o

After 98 recorded ballots, more than 20% of the expected total, there could be some dramatic changes this year:

Bagwell 92% (finished with 72% last year)
Raines 91% (70%)
Rodriguez 86%

75% needed for induction.

Hoffman 74% (67%)
Guerrero 74%
Bonds 73% (44%)
Clemens 73% (45%)
Martinez 66% (43%)
Mussina 60% (43%)
Schilling 53% (52%)
Ramirez 35%
Smith 31% (34%)
Walker 22% (16%)
Sosa 14% (7%)
Sheffield 11% (12%)
Kent 11% (17%)
McGriff 11% (21%)
Wagner 10% (11%)
Posada 6%

The tracker doesn't claim to be a predictor. In the past, the final tally for most players is 5% or so lower than percentage they received on votes that were made public. Right now Bagwell, Raines (in his tenth and last year on the ballot), and Ivan Rodriguez (first year) look in pretty good shape. Trevor Hoffman looks doubtful with 74%, but last year his vote was odd because he actually underperformed in the ballots that were made public. He may have enough lurking votes to squeak through. Vlad Guerrero is also on the ballot for the first time. At the very least, he's making a very strong start.

Next is a mind-boggling change - Bonds and Clemens at 73% each. They hung at around 50% of the public vote last year and finished around 45%. I doubt if many people have changed their minds about either the rightness of PED use or the allegations against Bonds and Clemens, so it looks like this is a pretty strong reaction to the induction of Bud Selig, and maybe Tony LaRussa or Mike Piazza. Even Sosa is doing much better, although from a much lower base.

If they could induct Bagwell, Raines, Rodriguez, and Hoffman this time around, it would go a long way in eliminating the backlog of deserving players that we've seen for the last few years.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903678
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After 166 votes (38% of the expected total):

Bagwell 92% (72% in last year's vote)
Raines 91% (70%)
Rodriguez 84%
Guerrero 76%

Hoffman 73% (67%)
Bonds 69% (44%)
Martinez 69% (43%)
Clemens 69% (45%)
Mussina 61% (43%)
Schilling 53% (52%)
Ramirez 28%
Smith 28% (34%)
Walker 25% (16%)
McGriff 15% (21%)
Sheffield 13% (12%)
Kent 13% (17%)
Wagner 12% (11%)
Sosa 11% (7%)

Posada 4.8%

The deadline to vote was December 31. Selections will be announced on January 18.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903716
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pete, is rose ever going to make it in? what do you think his chances are? 1 being never......



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903737
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Binnie,

I think they may let him in after he's passed away.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: getthesenets] #903738
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Originally Posted By: getthesenets
Binnie,

I think they may let him in after he's passed away.


That would be a scumbag move. Wouldn't surprise me though.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903776
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yes, voting him in after he is dead, is probably going to happen, hard having sympathy for rose, because he brought it all on himself by his incessant lying.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903799
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If someone gave me an over - under of ten years on Pete being inducted, I'd go for the under. MLB has already signaled that the issue is up to the Hall, and I'm not sure what particular interest the Hall has in the question. Maybe they'll turn attention to him once the steroids group actually starts being inducted.


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Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #903803
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not sure a good thing for the steroids group to be inducted, it would only mean nothing is really outlawed, and, a message that anything goes.



" watch what you say around this guy, he's got a big mouth" sam giancana to an outfit soldier about frank Sinatra. [ from the book "my way"
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Final ballot (with votes and %'s). Bagwell, Raines and Rodriguez will be inducted next summer:

381 Jeff Bagwell 86.2%
380 Tim Raines 86.0%
336 Ivan Rodriguez 76.0%

327 Trevor Hoffman 74.0%
317 Vlad Guerrero 71.7%
259 Edgar Martinez 58.6%
239 Roger Clemens 54.1%
238 Barry Bonds 53.8%
229 Mike Mussina 51.8%
199 Curt Schilling 45.0%
151 Lee Smith 34.2%
105 Manny Ramirez 23.8%
97 Larry Walker 21.9%
96 Fred McGriff 21.7%
74 Jeff Kent 16.7%
59 Gary Sheffield 13.3%
45 Billy Wagner 10.2%
38 Sammy Sosa 8.6%

17 Jorge Posada 3.8%

Posada drops off the ballot due to lack of support, and Lee Smith because he's finished 15 years on the ballot. Jim Thome, Chipper Jones, Scott Rolen, and Omar Vizquel will be eligible next year, so the ballot will remain stacked.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #923576
11/21/17 11:43 PM
11/21/17 11:43 PM
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mustachepete Offline
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The 2018 Hall of Fame ballot is out:

https://bbwaa.com/18-hof-ballot-release/

Ballots to be returned by December 31, results announced January 24.

The ballot seems a liitle less crowded this year. Vlad Guerrero and Trevor Hoffman missed narrowly last year, and will probably go in. Jim Thome and Chipper Jones are strong new candidates. After them, it's anyone's guess.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #923582
11/22/17 04:31 AM
11/22/17 04:31 AM
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Footreads Offline
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Paul Hurnung made the pro football hall of fame. Even though he too gambled that his team would win a game.

But as we all know now you can get away with everything in football. Even take a knee during the national anthem and you can call cops pigs.

No baseball players have taken a knee at least not yet.


only the unloved hate
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #923619
11/22/17 05:16 PM
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OakAsFan Offline
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Betting on your own team doesn't make it okay. It's forbidden for a reason. Players can easily manipulate the line by betting on their own team. If bookies got word that a player like Rose bet less than his usual amount on a given day, they'd assume something is wrong with his team, and they'd move the line accordingly (and vice versa). The outlaw line would eventually make its way to Vegas. Then the player could send a beard into a Vegas casino and make a huge bet after the line's been moved. Rose is a scumbag, and he's now admitted it. Keep him out of the Hall, and preserve some kind of integrity in the game.

Last edited by OakAsFan; 11/22/17 05:23 PM.

"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Footreads] #923633
11/22/17 10:03 PM
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Originally Posted By: Footreads
No baseball players have taken a knee at least not yet.


Catcher Bruce Maxwell of the Oakland A's knelt towards the end of this past season.

And then not even a month into the off-season he was arrested for allegedly pointing a gun at a female food delivery person.

I'm not making this up either.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #923658
11/23/17 03:21 PM
11/23/17 03:21 PM
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He shouldn't have continued living in Arizona after kneeling. He was probably paranoid as hell from all of the death threats, started drinking. Come home to Cali, Bruce.


"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #925272
12/26/17 12:00 AM
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
The 2018 Hall of Fame ballot is out:

https://bbwaa.com/18-hof-ballot-release/

Ballots to be returned by December 31, results announced January 24.



As in previous years, a diligent fellow named Ryan Thibodaux is compiling the vote as sportswriters reveal their ballots in their columns:

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!8063&ithint=file,xlsx&app=Excel&authkey=!AAAsz3uDsmqy_Vw

After 105 ballots, about 25% of the expected total:

C. Jones 98%
Thome 95%
Guerrero 94%
Martinez 81%
Hoffman 79%

75% required for induction

Clemens 71%
Bonds 70%
Mussina 71%
Schilling 68%
Walker 41%
Ramirez 29%
Vizquel 29%

As I say every year, nearly everyone's numbers fall when final vote is announced. Bonds and Clemens were at around 73% at this point last year, but finished at around 54%.

That said, the top 5 are very interesting. Jones, Thome, and Guerrero look like locks. Hoffman's one of the few guys whose numbers haven't crashed when the final vote is announced. Edgar Martinez fell by about 7.5% at the announcement last year. If he does that again he'd fall just short of induction at around 73.5%

Jack Morris and Alan Trammell were voted in by one of the veterans' committees earlier this month. If joined by four others, it would be only the second time (1955) that six living ex-players were inducted in one year.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #927724
01/26/18 03:05 PM
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This year's results (votes, percentage, years on ballot):

Chipper Jones 410 (97.2) 1
Vladimir Guerrero 392 (92.9) 2
Jim Thome 379 (89.8) 1
Trevor Hoffman 337 (79.9) 3

Edgar Martinez 297 (70.4) 9
Mike Mussina 268 (63.5) 5
Roger Clemens 242 (57.3) 6
Barry Bonds 238 (56.4) 6
Curt Schilling 216 (51.2) 6
Omar Vizquel 156 (37.0) 1
Larry Walker 144 (34.1) 8
Fred McGriff 98 (23.2) 9
Manny Ramirez 93 (22.0) 2
Jeff Kent 61 (14.5) 5
Gary Sheffield 47 (11.1) 4
Billy Wagner 47 (11.1) 2
Scott Rolen 43 (10.2) 1
Sammy Sosa 33 (7.8) 6
Andruw Jones 31 (7.3) 1

Jamie Moyer 10 (2.4) 1
Johan Santana 10 (2.4) 1
Johnny Damon 8 (1.9) 1
Hideki Matsui 4 (0.9) 1
Chris Carpenter 2 (0.5) 1
Kerry Wood 2 (0.5) 1
Livan Hernandez 1 (0.2) 1
Carlos Lee 1 (0.2) 1
Orlando Hudson 0 1
Aubrey Huff 0 1
Jason Isringhausen 0 1
Brad Lidge 0 1
Kevin Millwood 0 1
Carlos Zambrano 0 1

C. Jones, Guerrero, Thome, and Hoffman will be inducted this summer. Everyone with less than 5% drops off the ballot. Next year's newcomers include Mariano Rivera, Roy Halladay, Todd Helton, Andy Pettitte, and Roy Oswalt.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #961100
01/08/19 01:06 AM
01/08/19 01:06 AM
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mustachepete Offline
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This year's Hall of Fame announcement is due on January 22. Very likely inductees are Mariano Rivera, Roy Halladay, and Edgar Martinez. Mike Mussina's induction sits on a knife edge.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1025014
12/05/21 08:28 PM
12/05/21 08:28 PM
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mustachepete Offline
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Thread hasn't been updated in quite a while. A couple veterans committees met today. The pre-1950 group elected former Negro Leaguers Bud Fowler, and Buck O'Neil. The 1950-69 group elected Gil Hodges, Minnie Minoso, Tony Oliva, and Jim Kaat. Oliva and Kaat are still alive, and will be inducted next summer.

The baseball writers are currently doing their annual voting for the regular induction. Balloting closes at the end of the year, results announced in late January.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1025706
12/16/21 08:49 PM
12/16/21 08:49 PM
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Over Here < < in TX
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Does Pete Rose belong in the Hall of Fame?

I did not know that there was a Gambling Hall of Fame ! ! !

smile


"It's nothing personal, Sonny....... It's strictly business."


Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1025714
12/16/21 10:02 PM
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He's served his time and if they let cheaters like Hinch, Cora, and others back into the game, then yes, Rose belongs in the HOF. Enough is enough. Let the man in already!

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1026190
12/24/21 01:39 PM
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Posthumously. It's a lifetime ban well deserved.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1026298
12/26/21 12:50 AM
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Yes, especially after all these years. Steroid use is getting more and more tolerated today, yet his violation from 20 years ago is keeping him out of the Hall.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1026382
12/26/21 10:53 PM
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Guys can move the line betting on their own team, use that to their advantage. Rose bets, say, 10k on his team like a week straight, then one day bets 5k. People in the know will think something is wrong with his team. Someone's injured, etc. It will get back to Vegas and move the line. Just one example of how easy it would be for a famous bettor to do this when placing bets on something they control the outcome of. The rule's there for a reason. No gambling on baseball by anyone involved with the league. Period.


"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1028100
01/13/22 06:56 PM
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mustachepete Offline
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Current Hall of Fame ballot tally, based on about 40% of the expected vote:

Ortiz 84%
Bonds 78%
Clemens 77%
Rolen 69%
Schilling 59%
Helton 56%

Everyone else is under 50%. As always, numbers drop suddenly late in the voting, so right now Ortiz is the only likely inductee.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!39939&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!AK9u16pmWGGlQsI


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: mustachepete] #1033328
04/22/22 10:17 PM
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jace Offline
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
Current Hall of Fame ballot tally, based on about 40% of the expected vote:

Ortiz 84%
Bonds 78%
Clemens 77%
Rolen 69%
Schilling 59%
Helton 56%

Everyone else is under 50%. As always, numbers drop suddenly late in the voting, so right now Ortiz is the only likely inductee.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!39939&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!AK9u16pmWGGlQsI


The first 3 names on the ballot were stored users, yet Pete Rose can't get on the ballot.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: jace] #1033362
04/23/22 09:59 AM
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Originally Posted by jace
Originally Posted by mustachepete
Current Hall of Fame ballot tally, based on about 40% of the expected vote:

Ortiz 84%
Bonds 78%
Clemens 77%
Rolen 69%
Schilling 59%
Helton 56%

Everyone else is under 50%. As always, numbers drop suddenly late in the voting, so right now Ortiz is the only likely inductee.

https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=F2E5D8FC5199DFAF!39939&ithint=file,xlsx&authkey=!AK9u16pmWGGlQsI


The first 3 names on the ballot were stored users, yet Pete Rose can't get on the ballot.


Agreed. Was really hoping when Manfried took over he'd correct it but he's just as spineless as Selig. Look at his handling of the Houston Astros cheating scandal.

Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1045222
12/04/22 09:44 PM
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mustachepete Offline
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The Hall's "Contemporary Era Committee" unanimously selected Fred McGriff for induction today. The voting (12 needed to elect):

Quote
Results of the Contemporary Baseball Era Players Ballot (12 votes needed for election): Fred McGriff (16 votes, 100.0%); Don Mattingly (8 votes, 50%); Curt Schilling (7 votes, 43.8%); Dale Murphy (6 votes, 37.5%); Albert Belle, Barry Bonds, Roger Clemens and Rafael Palmeiro each received less than four votes.


I'm pretty surprised by this, not by McGriff's selection but I really expected the Hall to start the PED guys on the road to induction.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: does pete rose belong in the hall of fame. [Re: Binnie_Coll] #1048708
01/18/23 09:27 AM
01/18/23 09:27 AM
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mustachepete Offline
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Ballots publicly revealed so far have Scott Rolen and Todd Helton both listed on just under 80% of this year's ballots. Announcement is on Tuesday - gonna be a squeaker.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
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