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Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789124
07/14/14 12:06 PM
07/14/14 12:06 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,222
B
Blackjack2121 Offline
Underboss
Blackjack2121  Offline
B
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,222
Originally Posted By: Sgarrista
I'm a little bit brighter than to right about it online if I was looking to join the mob. Some info never hurts though.

I'm more interested in how they run their businesses, or used to, not the illegal ones so much as the legal ones such as real estate and things like that.

A bit of mentoring is more what I'm looking for, good ways to make money. From what I understand the smart mobsters got out of the illegal side of things and run pretty successful businesses here. I'm a business person, and no I don't mind advice pizzaboy and thank you for thinking of my well being, however I'm not a 9-5 job type of person. Doesn't have to be mobsters either, if any succesful business owners would like to teach a few things to a younger guy I'd appreciate that too. And I've asked for advice on other sites as well, but the mob tends to be pretty connected and that always helps with business which is why I thought it would be a good idea to talk to some of them.

But if I'm wrong then by all means let me know, I dont mind, if I knew the answers I wouldn't be asking. The part about my nationality is because I know that a lot of the old school families as well as a lot of people in general don't take too kindly to certain groups of people or people who aren't Italian.


Bro!

Fill out a mob application with at least 3 reputable references and we will get back to you within 5 business days!

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: TheKillingJoke] #789130
07/14/14 12:52 PM
07/14/14 12:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: TheKillingJoke
What are the typical rackets the Bukharians run?

Frankly, I don't think they're that organized that you can say "rackets." And I've only heard that they've started to head for North Miami Beach in droves, so I haven't seen anything firsthand.

Furthermore, I just want to add that they're mostly hardworking people. But like any other immigrant group, you're going to have a few crooks. Up here the Bukharians are all over Rego Park and Forest Hills. Mostly in the nice apartment buildings from 113th down to Yellowstone, and along the Grand Central Parkway.

From what I've seen and heard, they like to lend money. And like a lot of the Eastern European groups, they're into the tech stuff (which is way over my head). And as I posted in a previous thread, a lot of the men cut hair (which of course is perfectly legal).

If you're ever in New York and you want to get an idea just how many of them are in Queens today, head out to Forest Hills on a Saturday just after Shabbos (they're VERY observant Jews), and you'll see them walking around in droves smile .


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: pizzaboy] #789134
07/14/14 01:22 PM
07/14/14 01:22 PM
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,089
TheKillingJoke Offline
Underboss
TheKillingJoke  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jul 2012
Posts: 2,089
Thanks for the info PB.
I didn't even know what a Bukharian was until I read an article on that Mani Chulpayev guy. As a community they seem to have a good reputation. Unlike Moroccan and Georgian Jews, who have been described as clannish, vindictive and fierce.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: pizzaboy] #789138
07/14/14 01:46 PM
07/14/14 01:46 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: TheKillingJoke
What are the typical rackets the Bukharians run?

Frankly, I don't think they're that organized that you can say "rackets." And I've only heard that they've started to head for North Miami Beach in droves, so I haven't seen anything firsthand.

Furthermore, I just want to add that they're mostly hardworking people. But like any other immigrant group, you're going to have a few crooks. Up here the Bukharians are all over Rego Park and Forest Hills. Mostly in the nice apartment buildings from 113th down to Yellowstone, and along the Grand Central Parkway.

From what I've seen and heard, they like to lend money. And like a lot of the Eastern European groups, they're into the tech stuff (which is way over my head). And as I posted in a previous thread, a lot of the men cut hair (which of course is perfectly legal).

If you're ever in New York and you want to get an idea just how many of them are in Queens today, head out to Forest Hills on a Saturday just after Shabbos (they're VERY observant Jews), and you'll see them walking around in droves smile .


All this talk about south florida...anyone know any places hiring? I'll move to the Keys in a heart beat!


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: LaLouisiane] #789140
07/14/14 01:54 PM
07/14/14 01:54 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Longshoreman Offline
Button
Longshoreman  Offline
Button
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: TheKillingJoke
What are the typical rackets the Bukharians run?

Frankly, I don't think they're that organized that you can say "rackets." And I've only heard that they've started to head for North Miami Beach in droves, so I haven't seen anything firsthand.

Furthermore, I just want to add that they're mostly hardworking people. But like any other immigrant group, you're going to have a few crooks. Up here the Bukharians are all over Rego Park and Forest Hills. Mostly in the nice apartment buildings from 113th down to Yellowstone, and along the Grand Central Parkway.

From what I've seen and heard, they like to lend money. And like a lot of the Eastern European groups, they're into the tech stuff (which is way over my head). And as I posted in a previous thread, a lot of the men cut hair (which of course is perfectly legal).

If you're ever in New York and you want to get an idea just how many of them are in Queens today, head out to Forest Hills on a Saturday just after Shabbos (they're VERY observant Jews), and you'll see them walking around in droves smile .


All this talk about south florida...anyone know any places hiring? I'll move to the Keys in a heart beat!


The Keys aren't really considered "South Florida" for whatever reason? Never understood why, South Florida stops in South Dade County. Keys are just the Keys. Key West tough spot to make a living. Locals have there same people for years and seems like the new people have a tough go of it. Nice place to spend a few days though.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: LaLouisiane] #789151
07/14/14 02:57 PM
07/14/14 02:57 PM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 656
Boca Raton
NNY78 Offline
The Counselor
NNY78  Offline
The Counselor
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 656
Boca Raton
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane

All this talk about south florida...anyone know any places hiring? I'll move to the Keys in a heart beat!


LaLou,

In order to get an interview you have to be an alcoholic on the run from the law from one of the northeast states and be able to pass for either Ernest Hemingway or a woman in drag. wink

My Sister and her Husband have lived in Marathon since 1988, they love it. There is plenty of work if you have experience in the deep sea fishing and hospitality trades.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: NNY78] #789158
07/14/14 03:43 PM
07/14/14 03:43 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: NNY78
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane

All this talk about south florida...anyone know any places hiring? I'll move to the Keys in a heart beat!


LaLou,

In order to get an interview you have to be an alcoholic on the run from the law from one of the northeast states and be able to pass for either Ernest Hemingway or a woman in drag. wink

My Sister and her Husband have lived in Marathon since 1988, they love it. There is plenty of work if you have experience in the deep sea fishing and hospitality trades.

Good post. I'll just add that, if you're working in the hospitality trades on Key West, you probably won't be able to afford to live there.

Unless you're heading down with a pension, as a youngish guy in his late '40s or so, freshly retired from civil service. Then it's a home run. You take a bartenders job and live nice. But 90 percent of the service employees working on Key West live on Stock Island or Boca Chica.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789353
07/15/14 03:46 PM
07/15/14 03:46 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 74
Shamm11375 Offline
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Shamm11375  Offline
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Posts: 74
The Bukharians are harmless in queens, been around them my whole life

They act tough , and walk around in packs, but the second a black kid gets off the E train from Jamaica they run home to mommy

There are articles about them deep in health insurance scams tho a quick google search will show you

Last edited by Shamm11375; 07/15/14 03:46 PM.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Shamm11375] #789354
07/15/14 03:52 PM
07/15/14 03:52 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: Shamm11375
The Bukharians are harmless in queens, been around them my whole life

They act tough , and walk around in packs, but the second a black kid gets off the E train from Jamaica they run home to mommy

There are articles about them deep in health insurance scams tho a quick google search will show you

They're also very religious. Like I said in my post, they're mostly hardworking and decent people. Tech stuff, insurance scams, nothing too heavy. A few rotten apples and all that.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789401
07/15/14 05:17 PM
07/15/14 05:17 PM
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 582
T
TonyBoy117 Offline
Underboss
TonyBoy117  Offline
T
Underboss
Joined: Nov 2012
Posts: 582
Anyone know what the deal was with Roberto Settineri?

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: TonyBoy117] #789412
07/15/14 06:00 PM
07/15/14 06:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Dellacroce Offline
Underboss
Dellacroce  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: TonyBoy117
Anyone know what the deal was with Roberto Settineri?


ya that was kind of an interesting case. I Was just the other day watching an American Greed episode that went into the case of the guy that help set up Settineri. the guy(i think his name was Rothstein) got caught running a billion dollar ponzi scheme and he set up Settineri on a money laundering charge to try and score some points with the feds, i don't think it helped him to much. anyway the feds tried to make Settineri sound like some sort of "intermediary" between the sicilians and the gambinos. he got sentenced to 4 years back in 2010 so maybe he is out.


"Let me tell you something. There's no nobility in poverty. I've been a poor man, and I've been a rich man. And I choose rich every fucking time."

-Jordan Belfort
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789413
07/15/14 06:09 PM
07/15/14 06:09 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,544
Kokomo
B
Beanshooter Offline
Underboss
Beanshooter  Offline
B
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,544
Kokomo
Here is the Feds press release Del,

Settineri Sentenced on Money Laundering Charge
U.S. Attorney’s Office
November 03, 2010

Southern District of Florida
(313) 226-9100
Wifredo A. Ferrer, United States Attorney for the Southern District of Florida; Lanny A. Breuer, Assistant Attorney General of the Criminal Division of the Department of Justice; and John V. Gilles, Special Agent in Charge, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Miami Field Office, announced that defendant Roberto Settineri, 42, of Miami Beach, was sentenced today by U.S. District Court Judge James I. Cohn. Settineri was sentenced to 48 months in prison, to be followed by two years of supervised release. Settineri had previously pled guilty to a one count superseding information charging him with conspiracy to commit money laundering.

According to the information and statements made during the plea hearing, Settineri admitted to conspiring with others to launder $10 million of funds and conceal assets represented to be the proceeds of a large-scale fraudulent scheme. The initial investigation was part of a joint U.S. and Italian law enforcement action.

U.S. Attorney Wifredo A. Ferrer stated, “This money laundering prosecution was possible thanks to the outstanding cooperation between federal, state, and international law enforcement.”

John V. Gillies, Special Agent in Charge of the FBI’s Miami Office, added, “With the cooperation of our domestic and international partners, the fight against crime has no boundaries.”

Mr. Ferrer commended the investigative efforts of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, the Broward Sheriff’s Office, the Miami-Dade Police Department, the Italian Ministries of the Interior and Justice, and the Italian National Police as well as the assistance provided by Immigration and Customs Enforcement. The Criminal Division’s Office of International Affairs and the FBI legal attaché office in Rome provided assistance in this case. The case was prosecuted by Assistant U.S. Attorney Cynthia Stone and Criminal Division Trial Attorney Margaret Honrath of the Organized Crime and Racketeering Section. Assistance was also provided by Assistant U.S. Attorney Alison Lehr.

A copy of this press release may be found on the website of the United States Attorney’s Office for the Southern District of Florida at www.usdoj.gov/usao/fls. Related court documents and information may be found on the website of the United States District Court for the Southern District of Florida at www.flsd.uscourts.gov or http://pacer.flsd.uscourts.gov.
http://www.fbi.gov/miami/press-releases/2010/mm110310.htm

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789414
07/15/14 06:13 PM
07/15/14 06:13 PM
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,544
Kokomo
B
Beanshooter Offline
Underboss
Beanshooter  Offline
B
Underboss
Joined: Mar 2011
Posts: 2,544
Kokomo
I found this video on the arrest of Settineri:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bqzbgfQqcjM

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789417
07/15/14 06:19 PM
07/15/14 06:19 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Dellacroce Offline
Underboss
Dellacroce  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Thanks Bean, good stuff.


"Let me tell you something. There's no nobility in poverty. I've been a poor man, and I've been a rich man. And I choose rich every fucking time."

-Jordan Belfort
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789461
07/16/14 01:03 AM
07/16/14 01:03 AM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
F_white Offline
Underboss
F_white  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 653
Illinois
Great find bean.


From now on, nothing goes down unless I'm involved. No blackjack no dope deals, no nothing. A nickel bag gets sold in the park, I want in. You guys got fat while everybody starved on the street. Now it's my turn.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: F_white] #789631
07/16/14 01:09 PM
07/16/14 01:09 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
I've got the Deep Sea fishing Down Pact!

Attached Files redo.jpg

"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789632
07/16/14 01:10 PM
07/16/14 01:10 PM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
Sorry to have gotten off topic!


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: LaLouisiane] #789694
07/16/14 04:52 PM
07/16/14 04:52 PM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 211
S
ScottD Offline
Made Member
ScottD  Offline
S
Made Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 211
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
I've got the Deep Sea fishing Down Pact!


Nice Mahi!! We do not get the big ones off St. Pete. Mostly chicken dolphin. We make up for it with huge grouper and kings.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: ScottD] #789696
07/16/14 04:55 PM
07/16/14 04:55 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: ScottD
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
I've got the Deep Sea fishing Down Pact!


Nice Mahi!! We do not get the big ones off St. Pete. Mostly chicken dolphin. We make up for it with huge grouper and kings.

Oh, yeah. The biggest grouper I ever saw in my life was off Longboat Key. A behemoth. They're great eating, too smile .


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #789810
07/17/14 07:45 AM
07/17/14 07:45 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
Good ole south Louisiana Dauphin, caught a bunch of Tuna also


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: LaLouisiane] #789819
07/17/14 08:38 AM
07/17/14 08:38 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
Good ole south Louisiana Dauphin, caught a bunch of Tuna also

Off topic, LaLou. But is grouper a popular men item in your neck of the woods?

I'm in Florida quite a bit, and I think it's the most common fish in restaurants, and food trucks, and bars, and everywhere else lol.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: pizzaboy] #789822
07/17/14 09:00 AM
07/17/14 09:00 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
Good ole south Louisiana Dauphin, caught a bunch of Tuna also

Off topic, LaLou. But is grouper a popular men item in your neck of the woods?

I'm in Florida quite a bit, and I think it's the most common fish in restaurants, and food trucks, and bars, and everywhere else lol.


PB, You can get it at all the restaurants around here with Dauphin and Snapper, but when we go out 80-100 Miles we are trolling for Tuna, Dauphin, Amberjack, Ling and Triple Tail, more of mid level fish.

The Snapper and Grouper are more concentrated around the rigs so what they do is attach a heavier weight to the bait to drop it quicker next to the rigs so the Barracudas and Bonito don't grab them and once it hits bottom your either pulling up a Snapper or Grouper. Still a fun fight, just by different means.


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #790685
07/21/14 09:24 AM
07/21/14 09:24 AM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 11
I
IKnowNothing Offline
TROLL
IKnowNothing  Offline
TROLL
I
Wiseguy
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 11
Wow! This is ridiculous. Go find some forum for fishing to talk about this shit. You guys suck.

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: IKnowNothing] #790695
07/21/14 09:44 AM
07/21/14 09:44 AM
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
LaLouisiane Offline
Cajun Mafia
LaLouisiane  Offline
Cajun Mafia
Underboss
Joined: Aug 2013
Posts: 1,094
Cajunland
Originally Posted By: IKnowNothing
Wow! This is ridiculous. Go find some forum for fishing to talk about this shit. You guys suck.


I give it til the end of this week before SC gives you the boot out the door.


"What are you cacklin' hens cluckin' about?!?!"

"Is that him?!? With the sombrero on?!?"


Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: LaLouisiane] #790697
07/21/14 09:47 AM
07/21/14 09:47 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: LaLouisiane
Originally Posted By: IKnowNothing
Wow! This is ridiculous. Go find some forum for fishing to talk about this shit. You guys suck.


I give it til the end of this week before SC gives you the boot out the door.

Don't give him what he wants, LaLou. Don't feed the trolls.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: IKnowNothing] #790708
07/21/14 10:35 AM
07/21/14 10:35 AM
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 211
S
ScottD Offline
Made Member
ScottD  Offline
S
Made Member
Joined: Jan 2012
Posts: 211
Originally Posted By: IKnowNothing
Wow! This is ridiculous. Go find some forum for fishing to talk about this shit. You guys suck.


Here, I'll steer it back.

Al Scaglione, Trafficante crime family soldier, owned a fishing camp in Ruskin (south of Tampa, on the east side of Tampa Bay).

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #790711
07/21/14 10:38 AM
07/21/14 10:38 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
domwoods74 Offline
Underboss
domwoods74  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 1,595
manchester uk
Yeah welcome to the boards Scott

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: IKnowNothing] #790721
07/21/14 11:26 AM
07/21/14 11:26 AM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Originally Posted By: IKnowNothing
Wow! This is ridiculous. Go find some forum for fishing to talk about this shit. You guys suck.


The troll is gone. The only positive thing he did here was to live up to his screen name.


.
Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: Sgarrista] #796804
08/19/14 09:43 AM
08/19/14 09:43 AM
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 656
Boca Raton
NNY78 Offline
The Counselor
NNY78  Offline
The Counselor
Underboss
Joined: Jan 2014
Posts: 656
Boca Raton
Anyone know if this guy is related to anyone in Philly?

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-08...gleader-clinics

Re: Current Miami/Florida Mobs [Re: NNY78] #796814
08/19/14 10:06 AM
08/19/14 10:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: NNY78
Anyone know if this guy is related to anyone in Philly?

http://articles.sun-sentinel.com/2014-08...gleader-clinics

You know I don't really follow Philly. But I'll just point out that Licata is a fairly common surname among Sicilians in America, especially in the Northeast. I even know a Calabrian or two with that last name smile.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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