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Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: Lou_Para] #785876
06/25/14 07:58 AM
06/25/14 07:58 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Lou_Para
Under another topic (guys cutting deals while serving long sentences),I mentioned Chuckie Porter,a Pittsburgh Mob guy. He was made despite being half Italian(on his mother's side). He rose through the ranks and became Underboss under Michael Genovese.

Porter's another good example. Although, like you said, in his case the Italian blood was on his Mother's side.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: pizzaboy] #785886
06/25/14 09:30 AM
06/25/14 09:30 AM
Joined: Jun 2012
Posts: 803
Friend_of_Henry Offline
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: Lou_Para
Under another topic (guys cutting deals while serving long sentences),I mentioned Chuckie Porter,a Pittsburgh Mob guy. He was made despite being half Italian(on his mother's side). He rose through the ranks and became Underboss under Michael Genovese.

Porter's another good example. Although, like you said, in his case the Italian blood was on his Mother's side.


I remember my first encounter with Chuckie. I had no idea would he was. When I was introduced to him a very wise man from Warren, Ohio looked at me and "rolled" his eyes. Another friend told me he was a real "up and comer" and may be "The Man" some day.
Many believe that Chuckie's heavy involvement with drugs and Michael's desire for all the money led to the end of what we knew of the Pittsburgh LCN ;-(


"Never walk in a room that you don't know how to get out of"- Henry Zottola
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: Friend_of_Henry] #785930
06/25/14 01:45 PM
06/25/14 01:45 PM
Joined: May 2013
Posts: 1,357
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Lou_Para Offline
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The Pittsburgh Mafia definitely began a downward spiral once they got into the drug business.
Porter's main dope guy on the street was Eugene Gesuale,who was known as "Nick the Blade". He established a major drug ring that included suppliers like the Pag#n motorcycle gang,and Paul Mazzei,the guy mentioned in "Goodfellas" as Henry's Pittsburgh connection.
Gesuale was one of those guys that was pretty much hated and considered a complete animal by everybody.(Animal was another one of his nicknames).
In most cases,when Law enforcement puts these guys away,it is business and not personal.The mob guys and the cops both understand that they are just doing their jobs,and there is some small amount of mutual respect.
In Gesuale's case,the Feds really hated him on a personal level.
He was a sadistic scumbag,who enjoyed inflicting violence on associates,citizens,and women,all pretty much equally.
I'm sure that when he got popped,a lot of champagne corks got
popped as well.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: californiaxx] #785940
06/25/14 05:17 PM
06/25/14 05:17 PM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 11
Raffaele_DelleDonna Offline
Wiseguy
Raffaele_DelleDonna  Offline
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There were two men in the Rizzuto family in Canada which were made members, one was Spanish i think and the other i forgot. They were send to Italy for some business, but they got killed there by the other mobsters which they did business with because they were made man but not Italians. It was a message to Vito Rizzuto not to take any other race into the family as a made men.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: californiaxx] #785942
06/25/14 05:28 PM
06/25/14 05:28 PM
Joined: Jul 2013
Posts: 950
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HuronSocialAthletic Offline
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My point was that a half chinaman would be much more likely to be brought into the fold (not made) than a mulatto. Italians have never been reluctant to do business with Oriental crime families. Black gangs, on the other hand..

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: Raffaele_DelleDonna] #785943
06/25/14 05:32 PM
06/25/14 05:32 PM
Joined: Jun 2013
Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Dellacroce Offline
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Posts: 2,111
New Jersey
Originally Posted By: Raffaele_DelleDonna
There were two men in the Rizzuto family in Canada which were made members, one was Spanish i think and the other i forgot. They were send to Italy for some business, but they got killed there by the other mobsters which they did business with because they were made man but not Italians. It was a message to Vito Rizzuto not to take any other race into the family as a made men.


the two alleged made guys who were spanish in canada are juan fernandez(aka joe bravo) and raynald desjardins. and i say alleged bc the one and only source that says they were made was fernandez himself when he was talking to the sicilians while being taped, what i took from that was fernandez was just talking himself up trying to make himself sound important. its hardly proof that rizzuto made two guys that had no italian blood at all. with every single report filed on desjardins over the years, none even suggest that he might've been made(that doesn't mean he wasn't important though). and we defiantly don't know the exact reason why joe bravo was killed, most likely it was either on orders from rizzuto himself or it might've had something to do with the massive arrests against the Bagheria family that happened right around the time of his murder.


"Let me tell you something. There's no nobility in poverty. I've been a poor man, and I've been a rich man. And I choose rich every fucking time."

-Jordan Belfort
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: HuronSocialAthletic] #785956
06/25/14 07:30 PM
06/25/14 07:30 PM
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Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic
My point was that a half chinaman would be much more likely to be brought into the fold (not made) than a mulatto.

Well, I thought the question was specific to being made. If I misread it, that's on me smile.

Originally Posted By: HuronSocialAthletic
Italians have never been reluctant to do business with Oriental crime families. Black gangs, on the other hand.

Well, I don't know about Chicago. If you know anything about me, it's that I don't speculate about things outside of my own region. But years ago here in New York, the Harlem numbers games were shared by the Italians and the Blacks, and there was rarely a beef. Bumpy Johnson and his crew were pretty close with some of the old Westside guys on 116th Street and the Luccheses on 108th.

Now I realize that's a long time ago, and you're probably thinking of the more modern day Black gangs (Crips, Bloods, etc.). But if that's the case, I'll just point out that it's fairly common knowledge that Vinny Basciano was in the junk business with LOADS of Black and Dominican gang types. And that's within the past twenty years. And Vinny ended up a boss.

But again, that's New York. I'll take your word about Chicago.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: californiaxx] #785963
06/25/14 09:21 PM
06/25/14 09:21 PM
Joined: Dec 2013
Posts: 189
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mldetroit Offline
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What is the modern day mafia going to do to make new members? Obviously, they started accepting 1/2 Italians because they needed to bring in new members and there weren't enough full-blooded Italians.

Anyways, this begs the question, will the mob eventually start making guys that are 1/4 Italian (have only one full Italian grandparent)?

I think they will have to because immigration from Italy is way down. This isn't the 1920s anymore. The more you widen the talent pool, you have a better selection of high quality, committed, money-making criminals. On the other hand, if you widen the talent pool to 1/4 Italians, being a mafia member may lose meaning, which mean guys don't feel as loyal to the group. What do you guys think?

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: mldetroit] #785967
06/25/14 09:28 PM
06/25/14 09:28 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: mldetroit
What is the modern day mafia going to do to make new members? Obviously, they started accepting 1/2 Italians because they needed to bring in new members and there weren't enough full-blooded Italians.

Anyways, this begs the question, will the mob eventually start making guys that are 1/4 Italian (have only one full Italian grandparent)?

I think they will have to because immigration from Italy is way down. This isn't the 1920s anymore. The more you widen the talent pool, you have a better selection of high quality, committed, money-making criminals. On the other hand, if you widen the talent pool to 1/4 Italians, being a mafia member may lose meaning, which mean guys don't feel as loyal to the group. What do you guys think?

Everything you've just described is called attrition, and attrition and assimilation have done more to change the face of the American mob than RICO and everything else combined.

But no, I doubt they'll ever take 1/4 Italians (whatever that means in this melting pot day age).


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: pizzaboy] #786500
06/29/14 03:52 PM
06/29/14 03:52 PM
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Ivan Offline
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
I doubt they'll ever take 1/4 Italians (whatever that means in this melting pot day age).


I dunno, I could see this happening, maybe even making non-Italians... not anytime soon, but when the New York 5 (which I predict will ALWAYS be around in some form or another) have finally evolved into something totally unrecognizable. I'm talking 100+ years from now or at some distant point in the future like that.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: Ivan] #786502
06/29/14 04:14 PM
06/29/14 04:14 PM
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Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ivan
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
I doubt they'll ever take 1/4 Italians (whatever that means in this melting pot day age).


I dunno, I could see this happening, maybe even making non-Italians... not anytime soon, but when the New York 5 (which I predict will ALWAYS be around in some form or another) have finally evolved into something totally unrecognizable. I'm talking 100+ years from now or at some distant point in the future like that.

I'm almost 55, Ivan. I doubt I'll be here in a hundred years whistle .

But down the road? That's what I meant with my sarcastic "melting pot" remark. I guess I should have used one of those silly smileys wink .


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: californiaxx] #787767
07/07/14 03:36 PM
07/07/14 03:36 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
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DoctorTwink Offline
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The whole idea that you have to be "fully Italian"/"100% Italian", or have an Italian last name or have an Italian heritage on your father's side in order to be made or join is a myth that people who know nothing love to spread around. The myth of this is perpetuated by myths, and movies and TV shows about the mob that are not based on reality at all.

When mafia members from Sicily, Calabria, and other parts of Italy first immigrated here to the states over a century ago yes you did have to be completely Italian. But it was not that difficult to tell who was Italian and who was not, and there were very few if any first generation Italian-Americans then since they were very young or just being born.

However the whole "you must be completely 100% Italian" in order to join the mob or be made has not applied for over a century, and the idea it does is a myth perpetuated by the media and people who are in the mob who believe the BS history they hear that's not accurate. Even in NYC with the five families you do not have to be completely Italian to join, and it has been this way since the 60s. They never have actually "changed it back". People who claim that they have or that you must be 100% Italian to join believe misinformation and myths about the mob that are not true that get spread around. The stuff the rats and fed reports claim is not necessarily true either.

If they restricted membership to people who were only completely Italian that is Italian on both their father and mother's sides going back to their great-grandparents, or even further back nobody in the United States would be able to join, and not everyone in Italy now would be able to join either.

You do have to have an Italian heritage but it can be on either your mother or father's side. Yes someone who is 1/4th or 1/8th Italian, or even 1/2 Italian can join as long as they are completely Caucasian, and look Italian.

Yes some people do try to get their son, grandson, or great-grandson to join. It's like this in Italy too. They do this despite how their sons or other male relatives are not completely Italian and if the son or other male relative wants to join they easily can despite being 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 Italian. But if the son is biracial or mixed race such as being Italian, and Asian, Italian and Hispanic, or Italian and Black they do not do this as there's no point and their relative will not be accepted into the business no matter how much they earn or who they are related to.

They would never let someone who is fully, half, or part Asian/Indian, or black, and part Caucasian Italian join or be made. Like that actor Giancarlo Esposito on breaking bad who played the Chilean drug dealer he's Italian and black; but looks black or mixed race. There are also a lot of illegal immigrants from various African countries in Italy now, and some become citizens and marry Italian people and they are not allowed in. The same goes for children or grandchildren of people from various Asian and even European countries who emigrate to Italy, marry an Italian woman or man and do not have a heritage that is actually Italian.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: DoctorTwink] #787810
07/08/14 12:39 AM
07/08/14 12:39 AM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 29
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californiaxx Offline OP
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hmmm...what exactly does an italian look like , i'm not a full italian but 1/4 sicilian and 1/4 greek but i'm also mixed with some Danish and i think that probably why i have blond hair and blue eyes but i do have a cousin who is full italian and hes dirty blond and has pretty fare skin so my main question is how exactly do you classify the looks of an italian???

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: pizzaboy] #787815
07/08/14 02:54 AM
07/08/14 02:54 AM
Joined: Nov 2013
Posts: 45
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karona1 Offline
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Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
That line about "tracing your roots to the old country" from Goodfellas is probably just that - a line.

That line always reminded me of something that Puzo might have written if he was a journalist instead of a novelist. It's corny as Hell, yet oddly enough it was perfect for the voice-over in the film.


well said

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: DoctorTwink] #787860
07/08/14 10:24 AM
07/08/14 10:24 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The whole idea that you have to be "fully Italian"/"100% Italian", or have an Italian last name or have an Italian heritage on your father's side in order to be made or join is a myth that people who know nothing love to spread around. The myth of this is perpetuated by myths, and movies and TV shows about the mob that are not based on reality at all.

When mafia members from Sicily, Calabria, and other parts of Italy first immigrated here to the states over a century ago yes you did have to be completely Italian. But it was not that difficult to tell who was Italian and who was not, and there were very few if any first generation Italian-Americans then since they were very young or just being born.

However the whole "you must be completely 100% Italian" in order to join the mob or be made has not applied for over a century, and the idea it does is a myth perpetuated by the media and people who are in the mob who believe the BS history they hear that's not accurate. Even in NYC with the five families you do not have to be completely Italian to join, and it has been this way since the 60s. They never have actually "changed it back". People who claim that they have or that you must be 100% Italian to join believe misinformation and myths about the mob that are not true that get spread around. The stuff the rats and fed reports claim is not necessarily true either.

If they restricted membership to people who were only completely Italian that is Italian on both their father and mother's sides going back to their great-grandparents, or even further back nobody in the United States would be able to join, and not everyone in Italy now would be able to join either.

You do have to have an Italian heritage but it can be on either your mother or father's side. Yes someone who is 1/4th or 1/8th Italian, or even 1/2 Italian can join as long as they are completely Caucasian, and look Italian.

Yes some people do try to get their son, grandson, or great-grandson to join. It's like this in Italy too. They do this despite how their sons or other male relatives are not completely Italian and if the son or other male relative wants to join they easily can despite being 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 Italian. But if the son is biracial or mixed race such as being Italian, and Asian, Italian and Hispanic, or Italian and Black they do not do this as there's no point and their relative will not be accepted into the business no matter how much they earn or who they are related to.

They would never let someone who is fully, half, or part Asian/Indian, or black, and part Caucasian Italian join or be made. Like that actor Giancarlo Esposito on breaking bad who played the Chilean drug dealer he's Italian and black; but looks black or mixed race. There are also a lot of illegal immigrants from various African countries in Italy now, and some become citizens and marry Italian people and they are not allowed in. The same goes for children or grandchildren of people from various Asian and even European countries who emigrate to Italy, marry an Italian woman or man and do not have a heritage that is actually Italian.


While you make a good point about the difficulty of discerning full or 100% Italian blood today, far removed from pure Italian stock as many prospective members would be today, the idea (which was in fact re-made the rule when Joe Massino was boss of the Bonannos in the early 2000's), it basically meant to the mobsters who were making the rules that both the guy's father and mother had to be Italian. In their way of looking at things - that meant the guy was 100% Italian, whereas a guy could be potentially made prior to that (at least during the 1980's and 1990's) by being what they would consider only 50% Italian on the father's side. How strictly that is actually followed is another story. I tend to agree that as long as a guy is white, has an Italian heritage (including an Italian last name), and the powers that be want him in; he'll get in.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: IvyLeague] #788125
07/09/14 01:36 PM
07/09/14 01:36 PM
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Posts: 92
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DoctorTwink Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
The whole idea that you have to be "fully Italian"/"100% Italian", or have an Italian last name or have an Italian heritage on your father's side in order to be made or join is a myth that people who know nothing love to spread around. The myth of this is perpetuated by myths, and movies and TV shows about the mob that are not based on reality at all.

When mafia members from Sicily, Calabria, and other parts of Italy first immigrated here to the states over a century ago yes you did have to be completely Italian. But it was not that difficult to tell who was Italian and who was not, and there were very few if any first generation Italian-Americans then since they were very young or just being born.

However the whole "you must be completely 100% Italian" in order to join the mob or be made has not applied for over a century, and the idea it does is a myth perpetuated by the media and people who are in the mob who believe the BS history they hear that's not accurate. Even in NYC with the five families you do not have to be completely Italian to join, and it has been this way since the 60s. They never have actually "changed it back". People who claim that they have or that you must be 100% Italian to join believe misinformation and myths about the mob that are not true that get spread around. The stuff the rats and fed reports claim is not necessarily true either.

If they restricted membership to people who were only completely Italian that is Italian on both their father and mother's sides going back to their great-grandparents, or even further back nobody in the United States would be able to join, and not everyone in Italy now would be able to join either.

You do have to have an Italian heritage but it can be on either your mother or father's side. Yes someone who is 1/4th or 1/8th Italian, or even 1/2 Italian can join as long as they are completely Caucasian, and look Italian.

Yes some people do try to get their son, grandson, or great-grandson to join. It's like this in Italy too. They do this despite how their sons or other male relatives are not completely Italian and if the son or other male relative wants to join they easily can despite being 1/2, 1/4, or 1/8 Italian. But if the son is biracial or mixed race such as being Italian, and Asian, Italian and Hispanic, or Italian and Black they do not do this as there's no point and their relative will not be accepted into the business no matter how much they earn or who they are related to.

They would never let someone who is fully, half, or part Asian/Indian, or black, and part Caucasian Italian join or be made. Like that actor Giancarlo Esposito on breaking bad who played the Chilean drug dealer he's Italian and black; but looks black or mixed race. There are also a lot of illegal immigrants from various African countries in Italy now, and some become citizens and marry Italian people and they are not allowed in. The same goes for children or grandchildren of people from various Asian and even European countries who emigrate to Italy, marry an Italian woman or man and do not have a heritage that is actually Italian.


While you make a good point about the difficulty of discerning full or 100% Italian blood today, far removed from pure Italian stock as many prospective members would be today, the idea (which was in fact re-made the rule when Joe Massino was boss of the Bonannos in the early 2000's), it basically meant to the mobsters who were making the rules that both the guy's father and mother had to be Italian. In their way of looking at things - that meant the guy was 100% Italian, whereas a guy could be potentially made prior to that (at least during the 1980's and 1990's) by being what they would consider only 50% Italian on the father's side. How strictly that is actually followed is another story. I tend to agree that as long as a guy is white, has an Italian heritage (including an Italian last name), and the powers that be want him in; he'll get in.

\
OK you're basically saying what I'm saying in my post.

Just because a person's parents or grandparents have Italian last names that does not always make them Italian as a lot of people have immigrated to Italy and married Italians, or Italian people have married other Americans who have a heritage that's not completely Italian.

Joe Massino is not a "boss" or in a leadership position at all anymore. The rule they claim does not apply and has not for over a century. It is also as you said if they really want a guy to join they'll allow him to.

Last edited by DoctorTwink; 07/09/14 01:40 PM.
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: mldetroit] #788132
07/09/14 01:55 PM
07/09/14 01:55 PM
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DoctorTwink Offline
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Originally Posted By: mldetroit
Most of the five families utilize Ancestry.com to make sure they are making real Italians.


They do not go that far into checking to see if someone is actually Italian in their heritage.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: californiaxx] #790753
07/21/14 04:24 PM
07/21/14 04:24 PM
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DoctorTwink Offline
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The majority of Italians (by this I mean people who are born in Italy) if you look at their genetics are not even "100% Italian".

You have Italian people who have a Greek heritage, Norman (French) heritage, a Byzantine heritage, German/Swiss/Austrian heritage, and other types of heritages from other people or countries.

Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: DoctorTwink] #791168
07/23/14 09:26 AM
07/23/14 09:26 AM
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Castellammare del Golfo
Malandrino Offline
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Castellammare del Golfo
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
Originally Posted By: mldetroit
Most of the five families utilize Ancestry.com to make sure they are making real Italians.


They do not go that far into checking to see if someone is actually Italian in their heritage.


I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if the Genovese family did.


-I shot him a coupla' times.
-What's a couple?
-Hmm, more than a couple... Really I don't know the exact amount, maybe I shot him 10 times, 12 times?
-Maybe fifteen?
-Hmm, it could've been fifteen...

-Anthony "Gaspipe" Casso
Re: Non-Italians place in LCN [Re: Malandrino] #791175
07/23/14 09:51 AM
07/23/14 09:51 AM
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Posts: 23,296
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pizzaboy Offline
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Originally Posted By: Malandrino
Originally Posted By: DoctorTwink
Originally Posted By: mldetroit
Most of the five families utilize Ancestry.com to make sure they are making real Italians.


They do not go that far into checking to see if someone is actually Italian in their heritage.


I honestly wouldn't be that surprised if the Genovese family did.

Actually, they're probably the most assimilated and Americanized of the five New York families. The other families---especially the Gambinos and the Bonannos---have made a lot of Sicilian born members over the past decade. And to be perfectly honest, the Genovese family has basically shunned them.

But I get what you're saying. They obviously do a MUCH better job of vetting their associates before proposing them for membership.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
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