Hi,

I ask myself: If Capone would stay in New York and not go to Chicago, would he become a Boss of a Family in New York too?

What do you think?

Capone went to Chicago to work with a relative. He was trusted because he was blood. So he had his ear.

I think if Capone stayed in Brooklyn he would have been a soldier and could have become a lot higher then that. He had balls and he had ambition, and he would do anything or he may have got killed before he could become somebody high up.

You should ask a guy named John Binder. You can find him on Facebook . He is an Capone/ chicago outfit expert wrote at least one book on it. He used to be on the history Chanel. He hand an Internet name at one time of Westside jack.

Want real answers ask John.

Had Capone stayed, he definitely would not have rose as fast as he did in Chicago. Remember that in the 1920's, you still had to be full bloodied Sicilian in order to join any New York Mafia family. Capone was a Neapolitan descendant, so he wouldn't have been qualified to join (at least until they loosened the rules). I read somewhere that there were Cammora offshoots in New York at the time. But those groups are more linked by blood so unless Capone was related to someone in there, he probably was barred from joining them too.

Costello was Calabrian and Genovese was Neapolitan. All of the bosses were Sicilian and families like the Bonannos and the Profacis were almost entirely composed of them but the rest of the families had members from mainland Italy. I think at the very least, Capone would have been a capo in some family, probably Luciano's.

Hi, oh thank you very much. I asked him on FB.

I think that Capone and Torrio wouldve go with Luciano...as Snakes said

Capone become Outfit boss in 1925 at the age of 26,because Johnny Torrio isn't tought enought to the gangwar. If Capone and Torrio would had remained in New York,Torio will became a capo for his brain,Capone was smart but also too violent,will be a soldier under Luciano,and maybe a capo,maybe not with Luciano,but maybe under Genovese 'cause both had the same violent temper, and if Capone wasn't go to Alcatraz, maybe he wouldn't die stoned by syphilis.

I don't think Capone would've joined Luciano due to his connections to Frankie Yale. And Luciano was working under Masseria. He would have ended up under Maranzano and probably washed up under Joseph Profaci and become a very powerfull Colombo gangster. And if he did stay in New York, he probably wouldn't have died of syphilis, maybe not even get convicted on tax evasion and certainly not be sentenced to 11 years.

Capone was close to Yale before their falling out.

By falling out you mean Yale ending up dead in his car with multible tommy-gun bullet wounds?

Machinegun Jack (Vincent Gibaldi) was an awesome killer!

Vincent cole used the tommy gun when he invented the drive by

But Gibaldi killed Yale, Cole didn't.

Well, one thing leads to another.

Hard to say, because in NY there is a lot of concurrence beetween the bosses. Plus Capone was just a bootlegger, he had other businesses I know but I don't know if he had a lot of influence of the local unions like the bosses in NY did. He was more a classic gangster than a mafia guy.

I suppose that as long as he was Torrio's protege he would have made it fairly far up the totem pole.

please let us know his repsonse

In NYC I don't think he would have been a boss, too many guys for him to rise above for that spot , capo I'm sure he woulda made no problem

Hi, I think his answer is not a secret:
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Hard to say. Quite often, just like in the corporate world, there is luck and circumstances involved. If Colosimo had not been killed and Torrio wounded so that he stepped aside, Capone might never have become boss in Chicago. And if he stayed in New York, who knows what would have happened there.
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I think had he stayed in NYC he would have been killed.

Yeah. He was way too cocky and media friendly to last in a city like NY, especially in those days.

Was he not run out of New York in the first place.

Yes he fled because Irish gangsters were stronger then he crossed paths a few times with them one slashed his face with a blade that gave him his famous scar, Yale organised him working for torrio in Chicago

True. Didnt he go to Chicago because he caused tensions and he was a liability? Thats why the Jewish mob sent Bugsy out, not because he was smart but because he was a problem

Anastasia was also Calabrian

Capone fled to Chicago because he had to. Police were after him for two murders, and an Irish gang, the White Handers, were hunting him for beating up one of their members. He probably would have been killed or gone to prison had he remained in NY.

Keep in mind that Torrio was no more than a well-connected ward heeler in Brooklyn before he moved to Chicago. There was far more opportunity for non-Sicilians like Torrio and Capone in Chicago than in NY at that time. The Outfit under Torrio and Capone wasn't a Mafia family, and included quite a few well-placed members who weren't even Italian.

I don't understand. Could someone clarify?

Wayne Johnson says the same in his book about the Outfit not being a Mafia family under Torrio and Capone. But it was considered a Mafia family under Ricca, Accardo and Giancana. Why ? Ricca, Accardo and Giancana included non-Italians such as Murray Humphreys and Gus Alex.

The Capone organization was more like a gang.When Nitti and Ricca came to power,it was the Camorra crime syndicate(Al was also a Neapolitan).Accardo,Giancana,Aiuppa and so on...its the Mafia.The Outfit always had non-Italians included as made members,no matter what people say.And also no pricking finger ceremonies included...not until the 70's I think

Capone had a friend from Italian Harlem his name was Agile. I might have missed spelled it. When I was a kid he was already an old man. I liked him he was a grand father kind of a guy to me.

He went to Chicago with Capone. He came back to Harlem before Capone went to Florida. He is the guy that vouched for me to get that 1000 dollar loan from that shy I told you about.

He loved to gamble. When he was not gambling in the gambling house he would get a blow jobs from some of the whores who worked in the place. He would go to the hotels in mid town and try to pick up young women. Talk about and old guy who in his head he was a twenty year old.

He would have definately known for sure who killed Big Jim. Hell maybe he did it.

My friend Johnnie also knew him. I mentioned to him he should write a book about that guy.

He was the oldest of 18 children. Mother kept putting them out with no way to afford them.

Here is how they handled that in the old days. She put him in an orphanage they had them in those days. Until he was old enough to work to help the family. She did the same with all the other kids that she had.

When he made some money. He started to get his other brothers and sisters out of the place.

He had bought NYC taxi medellians when they were ten dollars a piece. He had 150 of them give or take. Later sold them for 150 thousand a piece made a lot of money. They are maybe a million a piece now a rediculas amount of money.

He also owned other small businesses.

Thanks Toodoped.

No problem GaryMartin.The thing is Accardo and Giancana never considered themselves as "the Mafia".They grew up mostly with non-sicilians or non-italians and none of them ever went to Sicily.They didnt have much respect for the old sicilian bosses like the Aiellos or the Gennas.

Turnbull is right,back in the days there was far more opportunities in the underworld for non-Sicilians in Chicago than in NY.So thats why the old Outfit always had a non-sicilian bosses like Torrio,Capone,Nitti,Fischetti's,Ricca...

There was a Mafia, of sorts, in Chicago during Capone's reign. It was called the Unione Siciliana, and it was something like a civic association with muscle. Capone always dealt with them respectfully, and always tried to have one of his Sicilians put in as chief of the Unione.

The guy closest to Capone in the Outfit was Jake Guzik, a Jew. Murray (the Camel) Humphries, a Welshman, was the Outfit's labor chief into the Sixties.

The Italian mafia or mob was in Chicago before Capone arrived, or became boss there.

Maybe,but just because they were Sicilians you cannot consider them as the Mafia because they were not organized and also they were weaker than the Camorra.Back in the days the underworld in Chicago was divided in many different independent criminal groups or gangs of Italian immigrants.They were mostly involved in extortion and murder(and maybe in prostitution).Part of the Sicilian criminal population was involved in black hand activities and part was involved in the Unione Siciliani.The Unione Sicilani was not a criminal organization but it was,sort of controlled by them.The political bosses were mostly killing each other for the top spot.The first big Sicilian political boss was MIke Merlo and the first big independent Sicilian gangs were the Aiello's and the brutal Gennas.The point these gangs were not allies.For example,the Gennas were good killers alright but they were very bad for business.MOst of these gangs were very greedy and could not be organized.During prohibition some of them were exterminated and some of em joined forces with the Camorra and then became organized criminals.THe Aiello's were the last Sicilian "crime family" in Chicago.

After Merlo's death the Camorra or the Torrio/Capone gang took over in Chicago and held its power until the late 40's.Accardo was the first Sicilian boss of Chicagos underworld after 2 decades.But then again he always took advice or orders from an older camorrista,Paul Ricca.Same goes for Giancana...

For what it's worth I heard a similar story on the Capone slashing incident. To be honest it was a quick conversation I myself never really gave a shit about Chicago. Anywho I heard Capone got his face slashed and and couldn't stay in NY anymore because he lost all respect on the street. Exact words "he was a mutt and got chased". Don't know how accurate that is but I heard it from I believe to be a reliable source.

Wrong.He was brought to Chicago for a purpose.Al used to go back and forth to NY.He was a well connected guy and theres no chancethat he got chased from NY.

In December 1925,Al Capone left Chicago and went to New York City,for two reasons:his son Sonny, whose severe left ear infection required medical attention(wich was also his alibi) and Frankie Yale,whose New York enterprises were threatened by a gang of New York Irish White Handers.He was involved in the Christmas Day massacre.THree guy were dead and after that Capone came back to Chicago

Capone in Chicago and Capone in New York is apples and oranges.

Al was in the right place at the right time when he hooked up with Torrio. Had Colosimo decided to get with the times and branch out into more lucrative rackets,the events that ultimately made Capone Boss probably wouldn't have happened. His rule can be attributed to a series of lucky breaks as opposed to a scheming master plan to become Boss.

Had Al stayed in New York,there's nothing to indicate that he would have risen to any kind of powerful position.

It's much like the Gotti situation. Had Gotti hooked up with the Genovese or Colombo Families,he would not have wound up as a Boss.

In both these cases,the Boss Became Boss because of a unique set of events that would not have happened under other circumstances.
Just because they became a Boss doesn't mean that they were destined to be such.

Capone was destined to be a boss,because he was goin with the "modern times",he was smart,very ruthless guy and made a few smart moves.Torrio srewed Colosimo and the same hapend to him.Al had a army of young loyal criminals behind him and took the Outfit on a higher level.There was no "luck" involved at all

Al Capone would have been a "headache" for NY. What do u do with a headache? You try to get rid of it. He would've been clipped. Best to send him out to Chicago where he can make money for NY & be outta their hair. Plus he was Napolitano and back then the old timers were made up of all Sicilian bosses. The Sicilians beat out the Camorra Navy Street crew n took over all their territory.
Luciano/Genovese crew was the exception who were made up of Sicilians, Calabrians, Napolitanos, and Jews...or anyone who could make them money.

My grandfather actually grew up in an Italian Harlem orphanage too until his cousins bought him out . He was born in 1918 and recently died in 2012 at 94. In 1931 he was driving prohibition trucks, lol, ended up in the teamsters as a trucker . Would love to go back in time to Italian Harlem.

Sorry for the news on your grandfather DB....Wow 94 he must have lived a charmed life, God blessed him....Italian Harlem was doing the Harlem Shake back then, I'm sure it was a good time.

They have a great short video on Pleasant Avenue. Let me find it and I will post it.

Wow 116st crew were a very powerful bunch. Sorry about ur grandpa.

Here's vid

http://youtu.be/3K_3X3uU8iI

I've seen that. Nice. I've lived in the Bronx for over fifty years. But my Dad grew up at 325 Pleasant, and my grandparents lived in that building from practically the day they got off the boat until the day each of them died. Roughly fifty years in a rented apartment. Try getting that deal today.

Like I said, I'm a Bronx guy. But I spent so much time on Pleasant growing up that it's a huge part of me. We're still there a few times a year because my Dad, who's almost 85 now, is still on the Giglio committee at Mount Carmel.

My parents were married in that Church in '58, I popped out a year later, then we moved up to 187th and Hoffman in the Bronx. But my grandparents stayed, and we kept going back. But the neighborhood doesn't even resemble "Italian Harlem" anymore. The 2010 census had it over 85 percent Latino. And the truth is, it was being swallowed by "Spanish Harlem" as far back as the late '60s, early '70s.

And welcome to the board, Alfano. I'm sorry for the long winded reply. But the video puts my family in mind, and my Pop is getting on in years now, so I may have gotten carried away .

Thnx for the welcome. It's so nice to keep our Italian traditions. My family was from Naples lived on Mulberry St then moved over to Hoboken n finally settled in cliffside park, fairview & fort lee. So glad to hear you go back to keep the memories n traditions of ur family alive.

Yes, that was also a common jump. Lower Manhattan to Jersey or Staten Island. My uncle had an apartment on Baxter Street, directly opposite the back entrance of Most Precious Blood Church. Needless to say, I spent too much time in that neighborhood too .

He ended up owning the building, but sold it before the gentrification. He's dead now, anyway. But that would have been a nice little score for him. A studio in that neighborhood will run you at least $2,500 a month today. Yuppie City. It's insane when you think of what the rents used to be.

I know what you mean. The first thing my gr gramps did when he had money was buy property an apartment building that housed 8 families and had two stores. My grandma lived their 90 years until the family sold the building. She died 4 yrs later:(That neighborhood is no longer Italian I just went back in March.
They used to have the feast right on their street until they moved it over to Brooklyn.
Lot of wiseguys in the neighborhood back when it was 90% Italian.

Nope, I'm down there all the time because one of my own properties is in the Village. It's long gone. You walk that neighborhood today, and you're much more likely to bump into an interracial gay couple than a bookmaker .

But times change, demographics change. Nothing you can really do except hold on to the memories (in a healthy way, not like some nut living in the past ).

Okay, back on track. I think someone said something about Al Capone in this thread . . . .

Oh yea Al Capone
Boss or no boss?

I appreciate the condolences fellas but it's all good , at 94 it's more of a celebration than sadness, tough old man tho , he worked until he was 86 and even then he was forced out as he was almost running over people on a daily basis , lol . Anyway from what he told me , if you were Italian , old Italian Harlem seemed like the place to be . Kind of wish I could of seen and felt it . Apparently wise guys were every where and every family had someone involved .