Amazing. Yes, Antiwar has a "bias" if you will, a bias against wars of choice and convenience. A bias against wars of self-aggrandizement and imperialism. A bias against the concentrating of powers into the executive branch that are part and parcel of war. This is something that is true across the political spectrum as antiwar's primary editor is a right-wing libertarian-the linked article was written by a conservative former CIA operative- but antiwar serves as a clearing house for various antiwar points of view from the left, right and all points in between. Many people across the board did not believe the claims made about Iraq and said so at the time. We were right. The other side was wrong. We didn't have to make up false claims about yellowcake in Niger or links to Al-Qaeda or run around yammering about Saddam and a mushroom cloud. So when the same people start up again about Iran, a wise person would at the very least check the evidence a little more closely.


Are you serious?
22% of Republicans think Iran requires military action now

John Yoo Makes case for Military Action in Iran

John Bolton says the sooner we attack the better

Santorum threatens to bomb Iran




Ok, see where did I write that? I didn't. It is not self-defense to attack someone because of what you think they MIGHT do. Every country , every individual on this planet has the right to self-defense. Israel can do what it wants to do. But if it wants US tax dollars, military tech, UN vetos, etc then it needs to listen to the US.



Again, this is a separate issue from Iran. Before the war on Iraq some of the same people that are now calling for war on Iran justified the removal of Hussein as dictator on the grounds that that would take the air out of the Palestinian national movement. It didn't and just showed that they didn't understand what was going on. Try tellling a Palestinian that Israel is democratic and free. Israel is an ethnic democracy. It is not a democracy for the residents of the West Bank or Gaza. They have been under military occupation longer than I've been alive. They are being forced off their land in a manner quite similar to what happened to the Cherokee, the Algonquin, the Ute, the Comanche, etc.




Just not true. The PA recognized Israel. What did they get? More settlements. You can not negotiate over how to share a pizza when one side is steadily gobbling it up. The new Israeli demand is that the Palestinians must formally recognize Israel as a Jewish state, which is something that is simply impossible for any self-respecting Palestinian to do. And that so-called plum deal wasn't that -it was a codification of "Palestine" as a collection of bantustan like reservations. Gush Shalom had a very good analysis of the offer. Israel doesn't recognize any Palestinian state.

I don't think a two-state solution is even possible at this point. The settlements in the West Bank are simply too entrenched. As the fortuitously leaked Wikileaks documents made clear Israel had zero intention of allowing anything approaching an independent Palestinian state-Israel would maintain border control, air space control, communications control, the right to arrest or kill whoever they wanted, etc-all things no state could tolerate.

The only solution is a non-sectarian state with equal rights for all, special rights for none with protections for religious or ethnic minorities.One person, one vote. There is already one state in existence-it's just that some people-those living under military occupation and those with the wrong religion inside the 1967 borders-have fewer rights than others. This is unsustainable. People who are Israel's friends recognize this.



Gee, like that's not an unfair projection. Let's be clear. I don't want to see anyone wiped out by a nuclear attack. I don't think that anyone's life is worth less than anyone else's.
That is true of people in Iran, Israel, the West Bank, Gaza and the entire planet.
Pre-emptive war is immoral. Murdering Iranian scientists and their families is immoral.
People have to find a way to live together without killing each other or claiming land that someone else is already living on. Period.

I despise that "invented people" argument used on the Palestinians, since that logic can be thrown back on the Israelis. Neither existed before WW2. Both were "national inventions" of the 20th century (along with Iraqis, Jordanians, most African countries, etc.)

Ivyleague, what do you think about the ultra-Orthodox in Israel wanting to ban Christmas trees, implement public sex segregation, wanting to ban women from billboards in Jerusalem, and other dickhead moves of imposing their will on everybody else?

My favorite? Influencing the government to run PSA TV ads telling citizens not to marry American Jews or else risk losing their jewishness that is only found in Israel. (Good to know our allies consider America to be a cauldron of unpurity. At least the Middle East all together finally agree on something apparently.)

~No wonder the Ultra-Orthodox and the Evangelical Neocons love each other. They deserve each other.

Is Obama's Strategy on Iran working?

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2012/01/02/iran-spits-nails-as-sanctions-bite/?utm_source=feedburner&utm_medium=feed&utm_campaign=Feed%3A+WalterRussellMead+%28Walter+Russell+Mead%27s+Blog%29

EU is on the verge of slapping oil purchase sanctions on Iran, and days after Iran threatened to blockade the Strait of Hormuz, two American Navy ships (1 an aircraft carrier) sailed through the Hormuz.

(Translation: Go fuck yourself.)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZEFKv5EY2Sw&feature=youtu.be


Thank you. This is the very same ship Iran threatened not to come back to the Persian Gulf.

After Arafat died in 2005, leaving his family in Switzerland richer by the ~$2 billion he embezzled from the Palestinian Authority, Mahmoud Abbas became head of the PA. He seemed to be a man interested in peace, so the Israelis returned Gaza to the PA--in the process ousting some 9,000 Jewish settlers, so the Gazans wouldn't be troubled by any Jews in their midst. The Gazans immediately ousted the PA and installed Hamas, an Islamic terrorist organization whose charter quotes the "Protocols of the Elders of Zion," and is dedicated to Israel's destruction. What did Israel get? 7,000 rockets rained on Israel, and scores of injuries and deaths.


Does that invalidate the Islamic Republics of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Mauritius? Or is it only a Jewish state that's impossible to recognize? By that measure, why would any "self-respecting" American recognize a Communist state like China? Or, during the Cold War, the USSR and all its Communist satellites?

The reality is that Israel has formal relations with Mauritius. And, at various times, Israel has provided military and economic aid to Iran (during the Iraq/Iran war), Pakistan and Afghanistan.

BTW: Israelis are not an "invented people." Israel's history long precedes Christianity and Islam. Ca. 1000BCE, King David unified the kingdoms of Judea and Israel into a strong nation that endured for 400 years, was conquered and then restored. Jews remained in the Holy Land even after the Romans destroyed the Second Temple in 70 CE. As far back as 200 years ago, Jews were an absolute majority in Jerusalem. And, until the late Seventies, Jews from Middle Eastern countries (who were expelled from Egypt, Iraq, Syria, Yemen, Jordan, Saudi Arabia and other Muslim nations following the '48 and '56 wars) were an absolute majority of Israeli citizens.

TB, I completely agree with your post. When the Palestinians accomplish democracy and gain control of terrorist groups such as Hamas, the Al Aqsa Martyrs, and Hezbollah, then they may enjoy my favor. Until then, I support Israel pretty much competely. Other than being a human occupyng part of this planet, I currently have nothing in common with Palestinians. Given the Israelis embrace and practice of democracy, I have everything in common with them.

It's one thing to support an ally, but mindless allegiance? I'm reminded of the current GOP national candidates tripping over themselves to insist that we go in total sync with Tel Aviv, whatever they want, we'll do.

I'm completely fine with it. They can be as absolute as they want about it. It doesn't affect my support for the democracy that is Israel and my expectations that Palestinians adhere to those standards of democracy if they want my support.

Very true. They are the "true" Jews after all.

With that logic, American Jews are actually Israelis. Same with Jews in Canada, Australia, Norway, Brazil...

Lilo was talking about Palestinians, not Americans. They would hardly have peace, till everyone there agrees to some compromise. And as theological governments go, if you want to put Israel alongside Islamic Republics of Pakistan, Afghanistan, Iran and Mauritius, it says a lot. Find me one theological government that doesn't stink when it comes to human rights.

A Jewish person here in Iran, wouldn't have the same rights as a Muslim, and the same goes for a Muslim in a Jewish state. Why not a secular state everywhere, where people are respected as human beings, with equal rights for all regardless of their religion?

Exactly. That will be the only solution.

As we speak there are new settlements being built. That makes peace impossible. We can't have peace with one side accepting the other's narrative as 100% legitimate, which is what the demand to recognize Israel as a Jewish state is. What would that mean for the 20% of Israelis who are non-Jewish?

The settlements are too well entrenched. Again there's been a military occupation and increasing settlements since 1967. Whether people like it or not there are different peoples there. The only fix is a secular state with equal voting rights for everyone regardless of their ethnicity or religion. Nothing else is tenable.

The ~20 percent of non-Jewish Israeli citizens have the same set of rights as the Jewish citizens. Israel is the only nation in the Middle East that grants full rights to every citizen, male and female, regardless of religious belief. Two other points:

Israel is a Jewish state, but it is not a theocracy in the way that some Christian and Muslim states are. The early Zionists were mostly atheists or agnostics. What they had in mind for a Jewish state was a state with a Jewish majority because they knew all too well what happened to Jews in every nation where they were a minority.

There are good reasons for people to oppose settlements. A lot of Israelis do, because settlements run the risk of creating a "Greater Israel" in which Jews would be a minority; and because settlements are often the pet cause of the religious lunatics, who are just as much a plague in Israel as they are in Islamic countries. But what's most irritating is why Israel is singled out for criticism, while no one says a word about the Chinese occupation of Tibet, the Indian occupation of Goa, the Ethiopians in Eritrea, the Russian troops in Estonia--and the US occupation of Guantanamo.

You beat me to it TB. I was going to point out that the 1+ million non-jewish people in Israel have the same rights as the jewish people there.

However, statehood for the palestinians will never get my support until they demonstrate that such a state will be a democracy and not a puppet state for the plethora of terrorist organizations that populate the middle east and also demonstrate that their thinking is a product of the 21st century and not the 6th century.

Its not "war" its Genocide,has nothing to do with nuclear shi*s only OIL,OIL and OIL.Same thing US did in Libya,u should take a look how people in Libya lived before with Gaddafi,and how they live now,when US came with their "democracy".They did same in my country back to 90's.Kids died mostly they throw bombs on hospitals etc. N.A.T.O - North American Terrorist Organisation.I love people in US but their politicans are awful and i hate them!

There is an inherent conflict between a state that privileges someone based on their accident of birth and one that is a full democracy. Increasingly Israelis themselves are discussing this openly.

Israeli Arab citizens don't enjoy all the same rights as the majority. The most apparent difference is the ability to buy a house where they want to. The Admissions Committee laws are still on the books AFAIK. Laws

I think most people on the planet want the same things for themselves and their children. I don't think we can or should say prove to me that you're decent before you're allowed to have a state.

But getting back to Iran.. Panetta remarks

A nuclear-armed Iran would not only be an existential threat to Israel, it would destabilize the entire region. Arab countries are more afraid of Iran than of Israel. If Iran gets nukes, then Saudi Arabia, Syria and Egypt will break all records to develop theirs, and others might follow them. Then the world will face nukes all across the most volatile region in the world.

Very true TB. Of course, the proliferation of nuclear arms increases the possibility of their misuse.

Iranian scientist involved in nuclear program killed in Tehran bomb attack
By Thomas Erdbrink and Joby Warrick
January 11, 2012

TEHRAN — A scientist linked to Iran’s nuclear program was killed in his car by a bomb-wielding assailant on Wednesday, a bold rush-hour attack that experts say points to a further escalation in a covert campaign targeting the country’s atomic officials and institutions.

The precision hit in a northern Tehran neighborhood killed the 32-year-old chemical engineer employed at Iran’s main uranium-enrichment facility and brought to four the number of Iranian scientists killed by bombs in the past two years. No one asserted responsibility for the bombing, which prompted a swirl of accusations and denials as well as renewed concerns about worsening tensions between Iran and the West.

Iranian officials immediately accused the United States and Israel of orchestrating the attack on scientist Mostafa Ahmadi-Roshan, who was killed along with his bodyguard when an assailant on a motorcycle slapped a magnetic bomb on his car as he commuted to work, according to Iranian news reports. Vice President Mohammad Reza Rahimiblamed the attack on “Zionists” and “those who claim they are against terrorism,” the semiofficial Fars News Agency reported.

The Obama administration denied involvement in the attack and distanced itself from the kind of lethal tactics used to kill the scientist.

“I want to categorically deny any United States involvement in any kind of act of violence inside Iran,” Secretary of State Hillary Rodham Clinton told reporters shortly after the bombing was reported.

Israeli officials declined to address Iranian accusations linking Israeli intelligence operatives to the hit. “It is not our policy to comment on this sort of speculation when it periodically arises,” an Israeli official said, speaking on the condition of anonymity under government ground rules.

But the series of attacks against scientists — all of them employed in fields or institutions relevant to Iran’s nuclear program — underscored the perception of a sophisticated covert campaign to disrupt Iran’s nuclear efforts and intimidate key officials and scientists, according to security analysts and Iran experts. The killing bore strong resemblance to two 2010 attacks on nuclear scientists and came on the same day as a ceremony for the second anniversary of the killing of another professor, Massoud Ali Mohammadi, in an explosion.

The scientists’ deaths are part of a pattern of attacks and apparent sabotage. In recent years, Iran has experienced an increase in mysterious explosions at military and industrial sites and gas transportation lines. A computer virus called Stuxnet also has damaged the nation’s nuclear program.

“The idea clearly is to try to disrupt operations that could lead to a nuclear weapon, and to make their scientists feel less secure and less capable of doing their work,” said David Albright, a former U.N. weapons inspector and president of the Institute for Science and International Security.

Some current and former government officials worried that the tactics could backfire, bolstering Iran’s resolve to defy the West.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/world/iran...V7pP_story.html

Don't f@#% with the Mossad.

It never ends. You can't bring peace to people who don't want peace. And therein lies the problem.

But PB, what constitutes people? Iran's population is 70+ million. Over the past few years some of them have demonstrated their dissatisfaction with their government. So, obviously, there can be cleavage with Iran's population about their international relations.

this guys gonna be a problem...I say shoot him, and everybody that looks like him..

Well sure. I actually believe the extremists are the minority, but they're the ones capable of the most heinous acts. It only took 19 guys to bring down the Twin Towers.

I believe it's perfectly possible to suspect that Tel Aviv maybe didn't necessarily pull the trigger. Possible? Sure ofcourse. But I could say the same of Tehran's enemies like the Gulf States, America, etc.



And if an invasion and occupation are the only way to solve this "problem"?

More and more, I think people who believe simply throwing bombs will be enough to forcibly remove that nuclear scenario are naive.

Back in the 60's some made love , smoked dope , got wet, while others gave thar lives ! No Fucken War makes sense, or the killen on both sides ! It all sucks ! The ones who have to fight it GO ! While the ones who drew the first blood are home enjoying the nice warm bed .

Just Sayen ! If anyone has the answer to all this shit. Hell they might be as good as Steve Jobs I sure as the hell wish I had it !