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Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #786594
06/30/14 01:12 PM
06/30/14 01:12 PM
Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Sicilian Babe Offline
Sicilian Babe  Offline

Joined: Aug 2002
Posts: 17,300
New York
Oli, I don't understand how it's different. If you believe contraception and abortion are wrong, wouldn't it also be wrong to profit from those products?

Hobby Lobby 401(k) employee retirement plan held more than $73 million in mutual funds with investments in companies that produce emergency contraceptive pills, intrauterine devices, and drugs commonly used in abortions. Hobby Lobby makes large matching contributions to this company-sponsored 401(k).


President Emeritus of the Neal Pulcawer Fan Club
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #786597
06/30/14 01:20 PM
06/30/14 01:20 PM
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,401
F
Footreads Offline
Underboss
Footreads  Offline
F
Underboss
Joined: May 2014
Posts: 4,401
Goo is a terrible thing to waste smile


only the unloved hate
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #786608
06/30/14 03:23 PM
06/30/14 03:23 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
Another thing to keep in mind on the Hobby Lobby case is that Hobby Lobby did not challenge the entire list of 20 forms of contraception contained in the mandate, but they opposed only four, which include morning after pills and IUDs, which they equated with abortion though you could argue this. The suit did not express opposition to birth control pills, condoms, sponges, etc. The narrow request for relief increased the likelihood of success before the Court.

Moreover the accommodation that was allowed for those, employed by the exempt religious institutions, will likely be made available to those employees, who are affected by the decision.

The big losers are the Jehovah's Witnesses, who weren't part of the deal, but dicta in the decision let them know they were cut out of the victory.

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #786610
06/30/14 03:31 PM
06/30/14 03:31 PM
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 368
H
ht2 Offline
Capo
ht2  Offline
H
Capo
Joined: Feb 2011
Posts: 368
I suspect most people invest in 401k mutual funds with no clue which specific companies are invested in. Some mutual fund investments are in pharmaceutical companies who, among many other things, manufacture contraceptives.

It raises an interesting point, but has nothing to do with today's 5-4 SCOTUS ruling.

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #786612
06/30/14 03:39 PM
06/30/14 03:39 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
C
cookcounty Offline
Underboss
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
there were 35 people shot this weekend in chicago (not too bad for chicago) it could be worse

point being, alot of the people shooting the guns should've been aborted

i'm pretty sure some of the people shot should've been aborted as well

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: ht2] #786826
07/02/14 07:20 AM
07/02/14 07:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: ht2
I suspect most people invest in 401k mutual funds with no clue which specific companies are invested in. Some mutual fund investments are in pharmaceutical companies who, among many other things, manufacture contraceptives.

It raises an interesting point, but has nothing to do with today's 5-4 SCOTUS ruling.


It's true that it is not a factor in deciding the legal issues in this decision. And it is an interesting point because these were business owners whose moral beliefs led them to litigate a detailed segment of a congressional act. It is hard to believe that in selecting among the legions of investment plans at their disposal, they wouldn't even give a cursory glance at plans that are consistent with their religious beliefs.

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: klydon1] #787055
07/03/14 05:34 PM
07/03/14 05:34 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,505
AZ
Turnbull Offline
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AZ
The Supreme Court is political, and swims in the same political waters as Congress and, by extension, the rest of America. Roberts crafted a political compromise in Hobby Lobby: By making a (IMO) dubious distinction between a "privately held" corporation and those that are publicly held, he managed to satisfy the religious Right without giving the rest of corporate America carte blanche to pick and choose which aspects of Obamacare they'll implement.

It's dubious because Hobby Lobby is still a big corporation that operates stores in many states and does business on an interstate basis. The fact that Hobby Lobby is privately held doesn't make a difference to employees receiving salary, benefits or any other aspect of employment. Nor can Hobby Lobby require employees to sign affidavits that they support the owning family's religious beliefs and precepts as a condition of employment.

Ironically, Roberts cited the "commerce" clause in upholding Obamacare--another dubious way to achieve a political compromise.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: Turnbull] #787296
07/05/14 06:01 AM
07/05/14 06:01 AM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 722
Midwest
LittleNicky Offline
Underboss
LittleNicky  Offline
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Posts: 722
Midwest
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
The Supreme Court is political, and swims in the same political waters as Congress and, by extension, the rest of America. Roberts crafted a political compromise in Hobby Lobby: By making a (IMO) dubious distinction between a "privately held" corporation and those that are publicly held, he managed to satisfy the religious Right without giving the rest of corporate America carte blanche to pick and choose which aspects of Obamacare they'll implement.

It's dubious because Hobby Lobby is still a big corporation that operates stores in many states and does business on an interstate basis. The fact that Hobby Lobby is privately held doesn't make a difference to employees receiving salary, benefits or any other aspect of employment. Nor can Hobby Lobby require employees to sign affidavits that they support the owning family's religious beliefs and precepts as a condition of employment.

Ironically, Roberts cited the "commerce" clause in upholding Obamacare--another dubious way to achieve a political compromise.


Oh yes, it was such a nutty solution that 7 out of the 9 justices agreed that just because someone operates a business doesn't immediately mean the state can take away all of their rights. Only the two nuttiest justices expressed an opinion otherwise (Ginsburg and Sotomayor). Kagan and Breyer expressly didn't state that proposition.

The RFRA compelled this outcome. The Court is not a superlegislator, it does not weigh policies. If you really thought the grandiose, intentionally overbroad HHS reg was going to pass strict scrutiny, you were delusional. There isn't a single person in the universe that thought that was the "least restrictive" means to completing their goal without interfering with religious rights.

If you don't like this outcome, repeal RFRA (the product of Clinton and a democrat congress). But until you do, all this policy stuff, the whiny "what does their 401k invest in" garbage is weak, simple minded and extremely childish. Guess what guys? People have different beliefs than you. Even if you think they are stupid. They should be able to associate, employ and service who they want under these principles. You can go ahead and not like, attend or support Wheaton college or Hobby Lobby. Both you and the religious busineses can make arguments in civil society about the merits of your respective positions. Maybe you can convince them how stupid they are. That's called pluralism, diversity. At least before prog idiots like those posting above decide they can use the violence of the state to enact ends that they see as morally righteous. At least HL isn't asking to use that violence to force others to comply with their beliefs. The Progs in this scenario sound far more like the purtians to me.


Should probably ask Mr. Kierney. I guess if you're Italian, you should be in prison.
I've read the RICO Act, and I can tell you it's more appropriate...
for some of those guys over in Washington than it is for me or any of my fellas here
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #788003
07/09/14 03:37 AM
07/09/14 03:37 AM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,325
MI
Quote:
In his opinion, Breyer offers the most forceful defense of what’s often termed “living constitutionalism” to appear in a majority Supreme Court opinion in a generation. Rejecting Antonin Scalia’s 18th-century approach of originalism—in which all that matters is what the framers thought—Breyer in Noel Canning stakes a bold claim for interpreting the Constitution “in light of its text, purposes, and our whole experience.” His is a progressive vision of the Constitution, one articulated previously in his books, like Active Liberty, and in various concurring and dissenting opinions he has authored over the years. But now, in the wake of Canning it is also the opinion of the court. As a result, it will influence how future courts—state and federal, trial and appellate—will apply the Constitution to answer tomorrow’s controversies.

It may seem like a niggling academic problem. But it has real-world consequences. That’s one of the reasons Justice Antonin Scalia—who agreed with Breyer that these recess appointments were unconstitutional—nevertheless disagreed with the court’s opinion so vigorously. While it may be a sign of how far the Roberts court has shifted that Scalia is forced to file his blustery dissents in the form of angry concurrences, the substance of Scalia’s complaint is unchanged: The court “casts aside the plain, original meaning of the constitutional text.” Breyer responds by saying that Scalia’s originalism asks the wrong question. “The question is not: Did the Founders at the time think about” the exact issue before the court? “The question is: Did the Founders intend to restrict the scope” of the Constitution only to the “forms ... then prevalent,” or did they intend the Constitution “to apply, where appropriate, to somewhat changed circumstances”? Fidelity to the Constitution, he suggests, means using its timeless principles to address new and unforeseen situations. You know, like figuring out how to preserve privacy in an age of smartphones—as the court did this term in Riley v. California, another case decided without relying on originalism...


Justice Breyer in Canning Decision


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #788137
07/09/14 02:13 PM
07/09/14 02:13 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Yet another one bites the dust:

A Colorado state judge has struck down Colorado's gay marriage ban, but has placed it on hold pending an appeal.

By the way, the State of Utah is asking the Supreme Court to grant certiorari to hear its appeal of the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that struck down Utah's gay marriage ban.

Last edited by olivant; 07/09/14 02:19 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #788240
07/10/14 09:31 AM
07/10/14 09:31 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
I
IvyLeague Offline
IvyLeague  Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
Originally Posted By: olivant
Yet another one bites the dust:

A Colorado state judge has struck down Colorado's gay marriage ban, but has placed it on hold pending an appeal.

By the way, the State of Utah is asking the Supreme Court to grant certiorari to hear its appeal of the 10th Circuit Court of Appeals ruling that struck down Utah's gay marriage ban.


As one lawyer who has been defending the rights of states to decide on this issue said, you read what these judges write in their decisions and it's more political essay than legal review. Not hard to see where they are coming from and why/how they came to their decision.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #788884
07/13/14 10:04 AM
07/13/14 10:04 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
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O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
NASHVILLE, Tenn. (AP) — Deep in the nation's Bible Belt, new signs emerged this weekend of an evolution among Republican governors on gay marriage, an explosive social issue that has divided America's families and politics for years.

While the Republican Party's religious conservatives continue to fight against same-sex marriage, its governors appear to be backing off their opposition— in their rhetoric, at least. For some, the shift may be more a matter of tone than substance as the GOP tries to attract new voters ahead of the midterm elections. Nonetheless, it is dramatic turn for a party that has long been defined by social conservative values.

"I don't think the Republican Party is fighting it," Wisconsin's Republican Gov. Scott Walker said of gay marriage. He spoke with The Associated Press during an interview this weekend at the National Governors Association in Nashville.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #788994
07/13/14 07:20 PM
07/13/14 07:20 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 80
Brooklyn
Paddy_James Offline
Button
Paddy_James  Offline
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Brooklyn
I hope they don't get the bans down

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789069
07/14/14 09:09 AM
07/14/14 09:09 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!"

"In April, Crystal Moore was fired in what she said was a decision driven by homophobia. Now the town of Latta, South Carolina, has voted to alter the structure of its government and hire her back as police chief, in the process weakening the powers of the mayor who put her on the chopping block."

http://news.yahoo.com/southern-town-lesbian-sheriff-003000842--politics.html


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789099
07/14/14 11:06 AM
07/14/14 11:06 AM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: olivant
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!"

"In April, Crystal Moore was fired in what she said was a decision driven by homophobia. Now the town of Latta, South Carolina, has voted to alter the structure of its government and hire her back as police chief, in the process weakening the powers of the mayor who put her on the chopping block."

http://news.yahoo.com/southern-town-lesbian-sheriff-003000842--politics.html

Well, let's not get carried away, Oli. And I'm not even familiar with the case. But people should be hired based on their ability. Period. Because you know what happens next, right?

Quotas for openly gay people. And that opens the door to people lying about their orientation on job applications to increase their chances.

Let them live their lives and go about their business. I'm all for that, and I've always supported their rights on this board. But we don't need anymore "victim" groups that benefit from Affirmative Action, especially if they're going to lie about it. And for the record, I've always been in favor of it to a certain degree smile .


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: pizzaboy] #789152
07/14/14 02:59 PM
07/14/14 02:59 PM
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
C
cookcounty Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Feb 2013
Posts: 2,213
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: olivant
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!"

"In April, Crystal Moore was fired in what she said was a decision driven by homophobia. Now the town of Latta, South Carolina, has voted to alter the structure of its government and hire her back as police chief, in the process weakening the powers of the mayor who put her on the chopping block."

http://news.yahoo.com/southern-town-lesbian-sheriff-003000842--politics.html

Well, let's not get carried away, Oli. And I'm not even familiar with the case. But people should be hired based on their ability. Period. Because you know what happens next, right?

Quotas for openly gay people. And that opens the door to people lying about their orientation on job applications to increase their chances.

Let them live their lives and go about their business. I'm all for that, and I've always supported their rights on this board. But we don't need anymore "victim" groups that benefit from Affirmative Action, especially if they're going to lie about it. And for the record, I've always been in favor of it to a certain degree smile .



that people being hired because of ability shit is bullshit

we had C student as president for 8 years....Cs = average

somebody of average intelligence shouldn't lead your country

the proof is in how bad bush fucked up

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: cookcounty] #789154
07/14/14 03:02 PM
07/14/14 03:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Longshoreman Offline
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Longshoreman  Offline
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Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Originally Posted By: cookcounty
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: olivant
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!"

"In April, Crystal Moore was fired in what she said was a decision driven by homophobia. Now the town of Latta, South Carolina, has voted to alter the structure of its government and hire her back as police chief, in the process weakening the powers of the mayor who put her on the chopping block."

http://news.yahoo.com/southern-town-lesbian-sheriff-003000842--politics.html

Well, let's not get carried away, Oli. And I'm not even familiar with the case. But people should be hired based on their ability. Period. Because you know what happens next, right?

Quotas for openly gay people. And that opens the door to people lying about their orientation on job applications to increase their chances.

Let them live their lives and go about their business. I'm all for that, and I've always supported their rights on this board. But we don't need anymore "victim" groups that benefit from Affirmative Action, especially if they're going to lie about it. And for the record, I've always been in favor of it to a certain degree smile .



that people being hired because of ability shit is bullshit

we had C student as president for 8 years....Cs = average

somebody of average intelligence shouldn't lead your country

the proof is in how bad bush fucked up


Jimmy Carter was probably the most "intelligent" President we've ever had, however was probably the worst ever also.

Lots in play when grading or judging a good president, however your Bush bashing is so old and tired I'm starting to like a guy I had great disdain for.

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: cookcounty] #789155
07/14/14 03:10 PM
07/14/14 03:10 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: cookcounty
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Originally Posted By: olivant
They're everywhere! They're everywhere!"

"In April, Crystal Moore was fired in what she said was a decision driven by homophobia. Now the town of Latta, South Carolina, has voted to alter the structure of its government and hire her back as police chief, in the process weakening the powers of the mayor who put her on the chopping block."

http://news.yahoo.com/southern-town-lesbian-sheriff-003000842--politics.html

Well, let's not get carried away, Oli. And I'm not even familiar with the case. But people should be hired based on their ability. Period. Because you know what happens next, right?

Quotas for openly gay people. And that opens the door to people lying about their orientation on job applications to increase their chances.

Let them live their lives and go about their business. I'm all for that, and I've always supported their rights on this board. But we don't need anymore "victim" groups that benefit from Affirmative Action, especially if they're going to lie about it. And for the record, I've always been in favor of it to a certain degree smile .



that people being hired because of ability shit is bullshit

we had C student as president for 8 years....Cs = average

somebody of average intelligence shouldn't lead your country

the proof is in how bad bush fucked up

I didn't even like Bush, and I posted as much constantly. But the man went to Yale, Cook.

Where'd you ever go except to pick up gumment cheese with your drug addled Mother? lol lol


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789159
07/14/14 03:44 PM
07/14/14 03:44 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
How did my posts about a gay police chief in South Carolina turn into a discussion about President's intelligence?

As I posted, a gay police chief in a small South Carolina municipality was fired by that municipality's mayor allegedly because she was gay. In reaction, and as permitted by the South Carolina Constitution, that municipality's city council changed its form of government to a strong council form. That change was sanctioned by voters in a subsequent referendum election (as also required by the State's Constitution) and significantly reduced mayoral authority. That's a superb example of democracy at work.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789160
07/14/14 03:46 PM
07/14/14 03:46 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
I'm sorry, Oli. You didn't deserve that. Back on topic smile.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789164
07/14/14 05:02 PM
07/14/14 05:02 PM
Joined: Jun 2014
Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
Longshoreman Offline
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Longshoreman  Offline
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Posts: 64
Miami, Fla via Englewood Cliff...
What's your stance and/ or position on the S.C. issue Oli?

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: Longshoreman] #789180
07/14/14 07:11 PM
07/14/14 07:11 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Originally Posted By: Longshoreman
What's your stance and/ or position on the S.C. issue Oli?


We've wasted and we continue to wast alot of national resources on personal intimate relations (this is what the mayor of Latta, South Carolina was recorded as saying: "I'd much rather have somebody who drank and drank too much taking care of my child than I had somebody whose lifestyle is questionable around children, because that ain't the damn way it's supposed to be." Remind you of any Board member's posts?). We have bigger fish to fry than if Mike is intimate with Frank or Phyllis is intimate with Heather.

The people of Latta, South Carolina apparently recognized that and took remedial action using the available democratic tools supplied by our Republic form of government.

Last edited by olivant; 07/14/14 07:17 PM.

"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789262
07/15/14 10:25 AM
07/15/14 10:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,505
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,505
AZ
Defendant in a death-penalty murder case here just got a new lawyer. Name: Michael Terribile.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789737
07/16/14 07:08 PM
07/16/14 07:08 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #789842
07/17/14 10:15 AM
07/17/14 10:15 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
I
IvyLeague Offline
IvyLeague  Offline
I

Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534


SACRAMENTO Calif. (Reuters) - California's system for imposing and carrying out the death penalty is so long and drawn-out that it amounts to cruel and unusual punishment and thus is unconstitutional, a federal judge ruled on Wednesday.


I agree. It is too long and drawn out. But that's just an argument to shorten it considerably. Do away with 20 years of appeals which do nothing but make defense lawyers rich.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: IvyLeague] #790189
07/18/14 06:42 PM
07/18/14 06:42 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague


SACRAMENTO Calif. (Reuters) - California's system for imposing and carrying out the death penalty is so long and drawn-out that it amounts to cruel and unusual punishment and thus is unconstitutional, a federal judge ruled on Wednesday.


I agree. It is too long and drawn out. But that's just an argument to shorten it considerably. Do away with 20 years of appeals which do nothing but make defense lawyers rich.


Sorry to disappoint you, but the truth is that defense attorneys can make more money by turning down death penalty appeals, which are most often done by court appointment at a rate that is pennies on the dollar. The fees also frequently are capped.

Moreover, those with venomous disdain for the legal profession for accepting the constitutional mandate to provide a vigorous defense for everyone charged with a crime is ignorant of the fact that those, who most appreciate the role of defense counsel in life-sentence and death penalty appeals, are prosecutors, court administrators and judges. Without defense counsel to filter and provide order to grievances and petitions by producing pleadings addressing real issues, you would see real chaos.

Much of the long term litigation on death appeals is brought by non-profit defender associations, who have a record of overturning convictions for innocent people serving life sentences.

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: klydon1] #790192
07/18/14 06:56 PM
07/18/14 06:56 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
Everyone hates lawyers. Until they need one wink.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: pizzaboy] #790196
07/18/14 07:03 PM
07/18/14 07:03 PM
Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
klydon1 Offline
klydon1  Offline

Joined: Apr 2006
Posts: 11,797
Pennsylvania
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
Everyone hates lawyers. Until they need one wink.


So true. I hate my lawyer, but when I need him, he's Jesus. wink

Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #790198
07/18/14 07:07 PM
07/18/14 07:07 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline OP
olivant  Offline OP
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Kly and PB, both of your posts are a fine expression of the nature of the American justice system. Some people invest in so much emotion that it obscures their reasonable appreciation for how that justice system works. Of course, much of the reason that they do that is because they never see themselves as being subject to the criminal justice system; they figure that it's only ever going to be applied to someone else.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: Crime & Justice [Re: olivant] #790201
07/18/14 07:22 PM
07/18/14 07:22 PM
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 384
ItalianForever Offline
Capo
ItalianForever  Offline
Capo
Joined: Mar 2014
Posts: 384
little known fact, around 95% of federal criminal defense is court appointed. So this negative perception about the rich sleazy defense attorney is completely false created by the rare exception cases like when a mafia guy gets indicted. The media once again creating false perceptions.

The federal government is literally subsidizing criminal defense work in this country along with everything else. And here is the point to remember, the attorneys appointed are often private practice lawyers on a panel and not just public defenders.

Last edited by ItalianForever; 07/18/14 07:23 PM.
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