Hello all, discovered this board by accident, while trying to find the dialogue between Lalin and Carlito in their one scene together in CW.

Read the GF about 25 times...an the fictional depiction of the brief involvement of Capone in the war that young Don Coreleone fighting in NY.

Quick question...how did a man from Naples become such a figure in la costra nostra?

Was Chicago area actually under the umbrella of the italian mafia and if so how did Capone get around the "sicilian bloodlines" requirement?

The organization that grew into the Chicago Outfit was not strictly speaking a "Mafia Family" since it had numerous other non-Sicilians and even non-Italians as members.

Capone's organization eliminated or subsumed the more clannish local Sicilian groups, as well as the Irish groups, the Jewish groups, etc....

Capone's original boss in Chicago, Johnny Torrio, was also non-Sicilian. Chicago was just different than NY.

Hope this answers your question and welcome to the board.

Great answer, Lilo!

I'll only add, that by the time the commission was formed in the early '30s, the Sicilians only rule was pretty much done for, even among the "traditional" New York Families.

Case in point: Frank Costello, who quickly succeeded Lucky Luciano (a Sicilian) upon his being deported, was Calabrese.

thanks Lilo and pizzaboy



the book makes mention to Chicago being "different thing altogether" and if I recall.............the meeting of the dons that takes place later in the book doesn't include a rep. from Chicago. The don of Detroit is there....west coast dons are there, but not Chicago.

That's correct. The book says something along the lines of "they had tired of trying to deal with those savages [Chicago] and saw no reason to invite them".

I think Puzo may have just got that from the research. I haven't done the detailed research myself to see if pre WW2 organized crime violence really was worse in Chicago than in NY but IRL Lucky Luciano really did say that "Chicago was a goddamn crazy place. No one's safe in the streets". Certainly in the twenties and thirties (and forties/later??) Capone and cronies felt quite comfortable beating or physically intimidating recalcitrant politicians or even marking them for assassination, which may well have added to the fictional and real life stereotype of Chicago gangsters being ever so slightly out of control. Puzo also may have just been engaging in ethnic essentialist stereotypes-the Neapolitan loudmouth flashly gangsters being disdained by their more restrained, more devious Sicilian counterparts.

As Lilo and PB noted, the Chicago Outfit under Torrio and Capone was not Cosa Nostra. The Mafia equivalent in Chicago at that time was the Unione Siciliana, a kind of civic group with muscle. Sicilians only. Capone constantly tried to get one of his own men of Sicilian extraction as their president.

Puzo based that part of the novel on the famous Castellemmarese War of 1930-31. He took liberties--for example, having Vito fight and beat "Maranzano" when in real life Salvatore Maranzano vanquished Joe the Boss Masseria. Messaria, not Maranzano, died in a restaurant ambush with his mouth full of half-chewed bread.

As for Capone: Masseria declared himself Boss of Bosses and tried to strike an alliance with Joe Aiello, the Unione Siciliana chief in Chicago in 1929, who was Capone's enemy. Masseria promised to get rid of Capone if Aiello would cede parts of Chicago to him. Aiello blew up at Masseria and chased him out of Chicago. In a complete about-face, Masseria then encouraged Capone in his fight against Aiello. But there is no evidence that Masseria provided any direct support for Capone.

Masseria arranged for the assassination of Gaspar Milazzo, Aiello's top ally in Detroit. Milazzo was from Castellemmarese del Golfo in Sicily, and all Castellemmarese regarded the murder as a stain on their honor. Maranzano, the top Castellemmarese in NY, slugged it out with Masseria. Capone initially sent money to Masseria but, according to Capone biographer Laurence Bergreen, "...he wisely heeded a warning from Masseria's enemies to avoid doing anything rash, such as sending gunmen. As a result, when the smoke cleared, Capone was on good terms with the survivors..."

Puzo also screwed up re. the Commission meeting. In real life, Charlie Luciano, in one of the most brilliant moves of his career, formed the Commission--and appointed Capone as chairman, and Joe Bonanno, successor to Maranzano, as secretary. Luciano positioned himself as a mere "member." He didn't have to declare himself as the top guy--everyone knew he was. His generousity to Capone and Bonanno was an attempt to bring them into the fold and make them more cooperative with other crime bosses. Though Luciano was a Sicilian, he welcomed anyone who could be a good partner. Jews like Meyer Lansky, Bugsy Siegel, Lepke Bucholter and Dutch Shultz, though they were not Commission members, sat with and counseled the Commission. Shultz was assassinated on Luciano's order after he failed to heed a Commission warning to stop planning the murder of special prosecutor Thomas E. Dewey.

thanks turnbull.


It's still a cold set of lines though.

"why does a Neapolitan interfere in the affair of two Sicilians?"


"the climate in New York is damp, unhealthy for Neapolitans"


when I first read the book, the only thing I knew about Sicily was that Sicilian slice of pizza was rectangular and the only thing about Neapolitans was that "that kind of ice cream had three flavors.



not serious.

It certainly is. Puzo had many awkward lines and scenes in the novel. It reads like a first draft in parts, but it's still great.

really detailed writing that kind of gives hints about some of the internal "prejudice" that exists among people from Italy.


The use of the term "half breed" to describe Carlo...who has Sicicilan Father and northern Italian mother.

Carlo's own feeling of superiority for being golden haired golden boy unlike the "dark haired guinzos"


The landlord's sneering at young Don calling himself an "Italian"......and clearly feeling superior as a Calabrese.



This type of regional conflict/mistrust/stereotyping exist among people of most countries of the world..and I just thought it was interesting. I'm not Italian and I could relate to this.