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Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: pizzaboy] #551125
08/05/09 12:12 PM
08/05/09 12:12 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
Yogi Barrabbas Offline
Yogi Barrabbas  Offline

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
I was in Leeds for my birthday yesterday and me and my good lady were sitting in a bar enjoying a frothy ale or 3 and had the misfortune of sitting next to 2 chaps who quite frankly were talking a load of crap. Whilst we have no "mafia" as such in the UK we do have villains and blood families who control organised crime. The main family in Newcastle these days is a rum bunch called the Sears who over the last 10 years have ousted another rum bunch called the Conroy's,who all got too old or went to jail.

Well these 2 blokes sitting in Leeds (which is over 100 miles from Newcastle) were talking about the Conroys,how they knew them and did "business" with them and they were this and that etc.etc.etc.

I of course knew they were talking utter rubbish but being the gent i am said nothing,drank up and just left. The moral of the tale is there are always wannabee idiots who talk themselves up about things they know nothing about.

Sad really!

Last edited by Yogi Barrabbas; 08/05/09 12:12 PM.

I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees!
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Yogi Barrabbas] #551219
08/05/09 08:04 PM
08/05/09 08:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 28
D
DonZito Offline
Wiseguy
DonZito  Offline
D
Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 28
They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: DonZito] #551220
08/05/09 08:12 PM
08/05/09 08:12 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,291
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,291
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: DonZito
They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.


Why so confrontational?

Yogi is one of the board's oldest and most well liked members, so try to treat him accordingly.

Why join a board just to provoke the long standing members and moderators?

Did we put an ad out for obnoxious this week?


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: pizzaboy] #551221
08/05/09 08:21 PM
08/05/09 08:21 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 28
D
DonZito Offline
Wiseguy
DonZito  Offline
D
Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 28
I'm sorry to state the facts. I got the informative side of writing a reply from yours truly: Mr Turnbull.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: pizzaboy] #551222
08/05/09 09:10 PM
08/05/09 09:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
Yes, the movie is infinitely enjoyable, but it does take liberties with Bugsy's life:
The film shows Siegel making his first trip to the West Coast during WWII. He made his first trip in 1933, and two years later had moved there more or less full time. He'd been to Vegas many times before the War, trying to get the sawdust joints in town to buy into the Transnational Racing Wire.

After the Harry Greenberg murder rap was dismissed, Bugsy thought it would be prudent to hole up in Vegas for a while. He found seven hotels operating, some with air conditioning, but all in the "Western corral" style. He tried to buy into El Rancho Vegas but was rebuffed. He did buy into the El Cortez, and got Lansky and some of his NY pals to invest. They doubled their money in less than a year. That's when he set his sights on the Flamingo. It was already called that by its owner, Billy Wilkerson, publisher of the Hollywood Reporter, whose degenerate gambling left him without the means to finish it. Bugsy bought him out, and convinced his Cortez investors to put in their profits (and a lot more) to finishing the Flamingo. As you said, PB, Bugsy didn't really "invent" Vegas, but he was the first to envision it as a modern, Monaco or Miami Beach west of the Mississippi.

BTW: Big Greenie didn't try to find refuge with Bugsy. And Bugsy didn't take him for a ride. Greenie tried to hide from Bugsy. Murder Inc. sent Allie Tick Tock Tannenbaum and Frankie Mr. Gray Carbo to Bugsy. The three hunted Greenie down. Carbo pulled the trigger; Bugsy drove the crash car.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: DonZito] #551223
08/05/09 09:11 PM
08/05/09 09:11 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
Originally Posted By: DonZito
I'm sorry to state the facts. I got the informative side of writing a reply from yours truly: Mr Turnbull.

Being a pain in the ass will get you banned here, just as you were before as Mini and Lompoc.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Turnbull] #551232
08/05/09 10:10 PM
08/05/09 10:10 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Zito is history. As we know, history repeats itself. rolleyes


.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: DonZito] #551277
08/06/09 01:39 PM
08/06/09 01:39 PM
Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
Yogi Barrabbas Offline
Yogi Barrabbas  Offline

Joined: Mar 2005
Posts: 8,845
Newcastle-upon-Tyne UK
Originally Posted By: DonZito
They might have done business with them, you never asked them.

Believe me, if someone in the UK says they did business with so and so then ya gotta believe it more then you don't because the UK gangsters aren't worth bragging about and are not big enough for the likes of you to get worked up over.

By saying that they were wannabes smacks of envy to me because you live in Newcastle and have bypassed these folks is completely your choice. You always have the option to be with people if you so desire to.


I don't know whether to be annoyed at this or just have a good chortle!

I think i will take the second option!


I would rather die on my feet than live on my knees!
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Yogi Barrabbas] #551289
08/06/09 02:53 PM
08/06/09 02:53 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,291
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,291
Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: Yogi Barrabbas


I don't know whether to be annoyed at this or just have a good chortle!

I think i will take the second option!


Always the best option, Yogi. You're ever the gentleman.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: pizzaboy] #551579
08/10/09 03:46 PM
08/10/09 03:46 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,381
AZ
MYTH: Mafia families fight each other for control of territories.
REALITY: While intra-family wars for control of the family are common, inter-family wars are rare. They cost too much in blood and money, are too disruptive of business, encourage treason, etc. The Mob has adopted a maxim from the 19th Century robber barons: monopoly and cartels are good, competition is bad.

This is especially true in New York City. None of the Five Families completely controls one or more of NYC’s boroughs—most have rackets that abut others’ within the boroughs. They’ve learned very carefully how to avoid territorial disputes. Let’s take a hypothetical example:

Suppose that, in the Brooklyn neighborhood of Flatbush, Coney Island Avenue has, over the years, become the unofficial dividing line between the Gambinos’ operations (west side of Coney Island Avenue) and the Colombos’ (east side). One day a Colombo made guy rents a vacant storefront on the west side of the street and opens a bookmaking operation. That’s Gambino territory, and the local Gambino crew chief reports the transgression to his caporegime. But the capo doesn’t do anything immediately—he waits a month or six weeks to see if the Colombos’ new business is booming. If it is, he lodges a formal beef with his counterpart capo in the Colombo family.

A sitdown is arranged. After the pro forma bellowing, shouting and threats are dispensed, the two capos come to the preordained settlement: the Colombos can keep the storefront open, but they have to pay the Gambinos a “franchise fee” of $4k/week to operate in their territory. If the business is booming, fine. If the Colombos can’t make the $4k/week payment, they’ll ask for a reduction. If the Gambinos refuse, the Colombos will fold the operation. No way are the two families going to war over such a small time racket.

But what if the racket is big—really big time? Greed is the common denominator among Mafia families. But they’ve all learned that too much greed can be lethal. Huge, citywide and statewide rackets like the “Concrete Club,” the garbage hauling “association" and others are cartelized among the families to prevent jealousy and the fighting that inevitably accompanies it. Sometimes all five will participate. In some cases, the family that launched the big racket will invite another family to participate. That’s a way of messaging the other three families: “We’re sharing this racket—and if you try to muscle in, you’ll be fighting two families, not just one.” But to hog the racket would be fatal.

Case in point: Carmine Galante, the one-time pretender to the Bonanno throne, irritated lots of high-ranking Mafiosi with his coarseness and his bragging (threatening to “make Carlo Gambino s**t in the street”). But his unforgivable sin was to create a huge heroin pipeline from Sicily, and a distribution network in America (the “pizza connection”)—and he refused to share it with the other families. The Commission sanctioned a hit on him. Arrivederci, Lilo.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Turnbull] #551581
08/10/09 03:58 PM
08/10/09 03:58 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!


.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: SC] #552860
08/25/09 05:53 PM
08/25/09 05:53 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
J
JerseyGuy Offline
Wiseguy
JerseyGuy  Offline
J
Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
I got a question that I need answered. For years I held the rather romantic view that the mob was a once honored society that strayed from the path. I'm very young so it was very easy for me to think like this and I'm starting to come around that maybe I'm a bit to entranced by movies but the reason I thought that the olden mob wasn't so bad is because that most of the gangsters back then didn't seem like all that bad to me. Guys like Lucky, Costello, and Lansky didn't really strike me as scumbags. I just wanna know if some of these guys were actually half-way decent people or if they were all the low-life scumbags that the majority seem to be.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: SC] #552862
08/25/09 05:55 PM
08/25/09 05:55 PM
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 589
Toronto, Ontario
D
dontommasino Offline
Underboss
dontommasino  Offline
D
Underboss
Joined: Nov 2004
Posts: 589
Toronto, Ontario
Originally Posted By: SC
A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!


They would've been into the playoffs at that point. The Yankees lost the '76 series to the Big Red Machine.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: dontommasino] #552864
08/25/09 06:04 PM
08/25/09 06:04 PM
Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
SC Offline
Consigliere
SC  Offline
Consigliere

Joined: Jul 2001
Posts: 22,902
New York
Originally Posted By: dontommasino
Originally Posted By: SC
A really minor myth, but one that still persists nonetheless.

Carlo Gambino supposedly suffered a heart attack and died while watching a Yankee game on tv on October 15, 1976. There was no Yankee game on tv that day!

They would've been into the playoffs at that point. The Yankees lost the '76 series to the Big Red Machine.


The playoffs were finished then. The World Series started the following day (October 16th).


.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Don Cardi] #553501
08/30/09 02:21 AM
08/30/09 02:21 AM
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 372
CA
D
DiMaggio68 Offline
Capo
DiMaggio68  Offline
D
Capo
Joined: Jun 2009
Posts: 372
CA
Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Originally Posted By: DonPacino
Exactly. When I first watched Goodfellas I became really intrested in the mafia, I admitedly thought WOW what a great life. After more research I found out that you can not trust anybody or rely on your 'friends'. Great thread TB!


DonPacino, I must commend you for your understanding and your maturity in realizing that the mob life is not all it's cracked up to be and that these people are not the kind of people that anyone should ever look up too.

It's very easy, especially for a young man your age, to become infatuated with the mob because of the way that hollywood glamorizes them and uses their magic to make you root for them. And there's nothing wrong in getting caught up in the moment or with the character that is being portrayed on the big screen. As long as when those credits roll, one realizes that it's not as glorious as it's made out to be in the movies.

Obviously we are all interested in mob movies and learning about real life mobsters, or we wouldn't be talking here. And being interested in the mob, it's people and how it operates is not a bad thing in itself. As a matter of fact it's very intruiging.

But as long as that interest stays at a level where it's only an interest in learning things and wanting to understand why they do the things that they do and operate the way that they do, and stops at that.

I am gald to see that a young man such as yourself has the mentality that you do and can differenciate the mobster life that's portrayed in the movies from the mobster life of the real world.


Don Cardi cool



I may not love, like, respect or honor what they do. However, many of the older mafiosos I have nothin' but respect for. Because they truly are men of honor. Just don't ever disrespect them.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: DiMaggio68] #553551
08/30/09 04:26 PM
08/30/09 04:26 PM
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
J
JerseyGuy Offline
Wiseguy
JerseyGuy  Offline
J
Wiseguy
Joined: Jul 2009
Posts: 42
Well there's no denying that they are criminals but I do agree that not all of them were lowlife dirtbags. Most of them are though.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: JerseyGuy] #554332
09/07/09 02:41 PM
09/07/09 02:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 69
Hell
FredoCorleone Offline
Professor With The Hardhat
FredoCorleone  Offline
Professor With The Hardhat
Button
Joined: Oct 2008
Posts: 69
Hell
Wow. This is easily the most interesting thread in the section of the site. Thanks for all the info TB.


Need scriptwriter for upcoming Godfather Part 4, Personal message me if you wish to participate!
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: DiMaggio68] #556513
10/03/09 06:14 PM
10/03/09 06:14 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
You just have to ask yourself though,
anyone with a basic high school education,especially if they were born into "the life" with a future of betrayal, prison,early death ,and no retirement plan, why would you get into it? I'd run from that faster than an amish upbringing.
Oh,almost forgot, if you're a stand up guy, you get whacked, if you're not, you go into WITSEC.

Last edited by The_Mechanic; 10/03/09 06:32 PM.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: JerseyGuy] #556514
10/03/09 06:18 PM
10/03/09 06:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557037
10/11/09 07:19 AM
10/11/09 07:19 AM
Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,237
The Ravenite Social Club
Don Cardi Offline
Caporegime
Don Cardi  Offline
Caporegime

Joined: Aug 2001
Posts: 18,237
The Ravenite Social Club
Originally Posted By: The_Mechanic
I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".


Don't forget Don Carlo.



Don Cardi cool

Five - ten years from now, they're gonna wish there was American Cosa Nostra. Five - ten years from now, they're gonna miss John Gotti.




Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Don Cardi] #557140
10/12/09 05:08 PM
10/12/09 05:08 PM
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 235
Cesena Italy
L
ledblimp Offline
Made Member
ledblimp  Offline
L
Made Member
Joined: May 2008
Posts: 235
Cesena Italy
Originally Posted By: Don Cardi
Originally Posted By: The_Mechanic
I think Tony "Big Tuna" Accardo, was one of the few that died of natural causes...and of course there was "Uncle Neil".


Don't forget Don Carlo.


Also,.....Lansky, Luciano, Bonnano ( father and son), Gotti, Costello, Paul Ricca, Genovese, Profaci, Magliocco,Magaddino.

Actually seems like the higher you were the more likely you would die of natural causes.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: ledblimp] #557153
10/12/09 07:43 PM
10/12/09 07:43 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
You are correct, but if i recollect, old man Bonanno was forced to retire after his "Man of honor" book hit the racks, or else they would've taken him for a ride.....and Frank Costello, had one zing off of his head from the "Chin", and later had the doors blown off of his mausoleum by Galante, not sure if there is truth to the last one,but there is an account of it out there.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557155
10/12/09 08:02 PM
10/12/09 08:02 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
And forgive my lack of detail in this account, but there was one high ranking mobster who went to mexico to cool his heels after a near miss, oh....nevermind, it was Giancana, who was found dead in his apt, with about $1500 on him, sorry to ramble, confused him with costello for a minute.
Kennedy conspiracies anyone?

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557911
10/18/09 06:27 PM
10/18/09 06:27 PM
Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,313
MI
Lilo Offline
Lilo  Offline

Joined: Jan 2008
Posts: 5,313
MI
Here's a question/observation.
Supposedly a mob person should get permission before killing anyone , but especially before killing another made member or someone completely uninvolved in the life. But is this "rule" even adhered to any more? Roy DeMeo murdered a made man when he was still an associate. DeMeo would go on to kill many other people-some of whom weren't criminals-with only mild expressions of disappointment from Castellano. Tommy Pitera and Greg Scarpa killed numerous people without any permission slips from higher ups. If we go back years before, Nicky Scarfo killed a longshoreman in a fight and was only exiled to Atlantic City.

How true is this rule, if it ever was?
These days as a Mob captain or underboss with the feds everywhere, why would you want to take the chance of being caught giving explicit permission to murder someone anyways?


"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Lilo] #557919
10/18/09 07:28 PM
10/18/09 07:28 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
That's a great question/observation,Lilo....
and as others have said before, being a good earner gets you a pass most of the time. DeMeo and his crew, were chopping up luxury vehicles and selling them to the saudi's for a premium I'm sure. As well as being ass deep in the coke trade. Plus most other crews were afraid of them due to their mechanized killing methods, (see "murder machine")
Even Gotti was aprehensive about visiting them, as well as Nino Gaggi's nephew Dominic Montiglio. I personally think that the average Capo's ego, or whomever is ordering the hit, doesn't think that the'll be wiretapped, or if so the code they use for a hit, will be cracked. Bottom line, I think you kick back enough for the boss, you can kill a guy just to take over his rackets.....just my observation, I think the esteemed Turnbull could probably add to this.

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557922
10/18/09 08:10 PM
10/18/09 08:10 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
One other observation......did you notice how Scarfo, DeMeo, and I'm sure a score of others became really paranoid toward the end of their careers?
An interesting psychological phenomenon if there was one. Not that being careful keeps you alive but......

Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557927
10/18/09 08:41 PM
10/18/09 08:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
Dapper_Don Offline
Underboss
Dapper_Don  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
yeah and dotn forget about Gaspipe who I find to be one of the most interesting mob figures


Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don’t they know I have a young wife?
Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water’s fine.


Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Dapper_Don] #557930
10/18/09 09:04 PM
10/18/09 09:04 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
You're right, I don't know enough about him(gaspipe) but didn't he go into hiding for a while before rolling over?
I'll have to re-reference "The five families"

Last edited by The_Mechanic; 10/18/09 09:04 PM.
Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: The_Mechanic] #557931
10/18/09 09:12 PM
10/18/09 09:12 PM
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
Dapper_Don Offline
Underboss
Dapper_Don  Offline
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2009
Posts: 4,086
Bronx, New York
yeah he was running the fam while on the lam and also orderign a bunch of hits on people he suspected of being informers or of double crossing him. read "Gaspipe:confessions of a Mafia Boss" its a good read!


Tommy Shots: They want me running the family, don’t they know I have a young wife?
Sal Vitale: (laughs) Tommy, jump in, the water’s fine.


Re: Mob myths, facts and realities [Re: Dapper_Don] #557932
10/18/09 09:18 PM
10/18/09 09:18 PM
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
The_Mechanic Offline
Wiseguy
The_Mechanic  Offline
Wiseguy
Joined: Oct 2009
Posts: 22
Thank's for the suggestion, I will be reading alot more once the weather starts turning south....

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