GangsterBB.NET
Who's Online
6 registered (grandy, TheAustralian, GaryMartin, SonnyBlackstein, 2 invisible), 83 Guests and 49 Spiders online.
Shout Box

Site Links
>Help Page
>More Smilies
>GBB on Facebook
>Gina's Artroom
>Job Saver

>Godfather Website
>Scarface Website
>Mario Puzo Website
>Gangster TV Listings

>MobPosters.com
>Puzo Amazon Store
>Ebay: Godfather
>Ebay: Scarface

>Live Chatroom
Wanna help out?


More from MobPosters.com



Active Member Birthdays
No birthdays today
Today on TV
April 19, 4:12 am
Time (ET) Movie Chan
Unable to connect to DB
Newest Members
Pretty_Amberg, carloG, jacko, calmellow, Marilyn
8291 Registered Users
Top Posters
Irishman12 54585
DE NIRO 42504
J Geoff 30212
The Italian Stallionette 24658
SC 21678
Mignon 18736
Don Cardi 18155
Sicilian Babe 17122
Turnbull 16466
pizzaboy 15918
plawrence 15058
Beth E 14900
Forum Stats
8292 Members
20 Forums
29169 Topics
748934 Posts

Max Online: 663 @ 05/27/12 05:37 PM
Topic Options
#472117 - 02/12/08 04:47 PM When did Michael decide to kill Fredo?
MaryCas Offline


Registered: 04/09/02
Posts: 8182

Loc: South of the Pinelands
When did Michael decide to kill Fredo?

I think when Michael talks to Fredo in the boathouse. Fredo says something that seals his fate. "I didn't know it was going to be a hit." Does this statement make Fredo stupider or smarter? What it does do is make Fredo more dangerous. His trip to Havanna reveals that Fredo knew Johnny Ola (and maybe Roth), but it plants the seed of doubt. It doesn't reveal the depth of his involvement.

By saying "I didn't know it was going to be a hit", Fredo sets himself up as one of Mike's "enemies" that he wants to "wipe-out." It also throws all the suspicion of who opened the drapes on Fredo. Fredo admits that Ola approached him to help out because Mike was being "tough on the negotiations". By doing what? The evidence we have of Fredo's "help" is the opening of the drapes. What did Fredo think opening the drapes were for? Observing Michael and Kay's sex/sleeping habits? And if Fredo didn't open the drapes he could have showed someone where the bedroom was. Likely he was duped into doing it, thus his admission of "I didn't know it was going to be a hit".
_________________________
Whoever exalts himself will be humbled, whoever humbles himself will be exalted - Matthew 23:12

Top
#472137 - 02/12/08 06:06 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: MaryCas]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
There are two schools of thought, one being the boathouse theory and the other being the "in Havana" theory.

Basically the first one goes along the lines that Michael had extended Fredo the courtesy to have the run of the estate so long as he remained harmless. He tells Tom, after fleeing Cuba to get word to Fredo to tell him he understands that Roth misled him and that he should come back home.

The second theory is that as soon as he found out Fredo was the traitor in the family he decided to kill him sooner or later. the evidence of this is the famous "kiss of death" scene at Batista's New Year's Eve Party.... "I knew it was you Fredo...you broke my heart....you broke my heart."

For some time I believed he withheld the decision to kill Fredo until the boathouse scene where he realizes how deep Fredo's resentment is, and when he learns that Fredo had lied to Tom about what he knew about the Senate Committee. Now I think he decided to do away with Fredo in Havana, but in his typical fashion never shared this with anyone. He did this to keep his enemies closer, and indeed by doing so he was able to get necessary information from Fredo.

After the boathouse scene Michael had no more use for Fredo, so he banished him from the casinos and told him to give him advance notice when he was coming to see his mother. At that point Fredo was really "nothing to [him] now." Then it was just a matter of time for Fredo. Nothing would happen to him while his mother was still alive.
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#472146 - 02/12/08 06:46 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: dontomasso]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
This is always an interesting question. I think dt summarized it perfectly. Michael never gave an enemy a pass. He might have considered a pass for Fredo, but the wild resentment Fredo showed in the boathouse sealed his fate, if it hadn't been already.
MC, you're right about "I swear to God I didn't know it was gonna be a hit." Yes, indeed--what did Fredo think he was opening the drapes for? If--repeat, if--Michael hadn't decided to kill Fredo at that point, his statement could have been taken as proof that Fredo did know it was gonna be a hit, and was lying to save his life. Or, Michael could have written it off to Fredo's terminal stupidity. But, whatever: the outburst that followed sealed his fate.
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#472155 - 02/12/08 07:11 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Yes, indeed--what did Fredo think he was opening the drapes for? If--repeat, if--Michael hadn't decided to kill Fredo at that point, his statement could have been taken as proof that Fredo did know it was gonna be a hit, and was lying to save his life.



On the drapes thing maybe Ola told Fredo that Mike would soften up on the negotiations if he had some sleep deprivation.

I recall that before Michael met with Fredo, he asked Tom what Fredo knew, and Tom said that Fredo tld him he didn't know anything. AT that point Michael says h wants to speak to him personally. In that conversation he learns that Fredo knew that Questadt belonged to Roth, this means Fredo had lied to Tom about what he knew of the Senate investigation, so really the "I didn't know it was going to be a hit" makes it two lies Fredo told in that scene.

This raises the question, that Fredo opened the drapes knowing full well it was going to be a hit, and perhaps he thought he would become the new head of the Corleone family after Michael was out of the way. This sort of dispels the whole "good heart" thing, which I've never fully bought anyway.
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#472157 - 02/12/08 07:17 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: dontomasso]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso


On the drapes thing maybe Ola told Fredo that Mike would soften up on the negotiations if he had some sleep deprivation.


Maybe Ola had previously worked for the KGB?
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#472159 - 02/12/08 07:20 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
 Originally Posted By: dontomasso


On the drapes thing maybe Ola told Fredo that Mike would soften up on the negotiations if he had some sleep deprivation.


Maybe Ola had previously worked for the KGB?



Yeah... after all he DID know Havana like the back of his hand.
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#472275 - 02/13/08 12:34 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: MaryCas]
Lilo Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 5133

Loc: MI
I also think the final decision was made in the boathouse. When you listen to Michael talk to Fredo and watch his body language it's apparent that he's through with Fredo. It's really good acting. Michael is polite, calm and cold as ice. He's already steeled himself for what he will do.

I really don't think that even then Fredo realized the extreme danger he was in but even if he had his resentment at being "passed over" wouldn't allow him to shut up.

It's unclear as to what exact actions Fredo took ( I can't see him creeping into his sister-in-law's bedroom to open drapes) but he's angry at Johnny Ola when he calls ("You guys lied to me!") so for what it's worth it's probably true that he didn't know about the murder plans.

I think Michael's Havana reaction to the discovery of Fredo's treachery was very emotional and very human. I don't think he had decided at that point to kill Fredo although he was obviously angry/hurt enough to consider it.
_________________________
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

Top
#472342 - 02/13/08 02:54 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Lilo]
TahoeShooter Offline

Button
Registered: 11/09/07
Posts: 55

Loc: New York
"Fredo, come with me. Its the only way out of here tonight.
FREDO, you are still my brother"

I think he may have wanted to kill him then.

Top
#472376 - 02/13/08 06:43 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: TahoeShooter]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
This raises another point:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane out of Cuba. Obviously he wasn't motivated by brotherly love at that point--he wanted Fredo to pump him for more info about the Tahoe shooting plot. And, when Michael arrives back in Nevada (probably less than 48 hours later since he's wearing the same clothes as in Havana, and is exhausted), the first thing he asks Tom is, "Where's my brother?" Tom obviously knows where Fredo is, because he says, "I think he must be in New York." Michael knows Tom knows where Fredo is because he tells Tom, "I want you to get word to Fredo...I know Roth misled him..."

Notice that the sense of extreme urgency has suddenly disappeared. Michael could have ordered Tom to bring Fredo to him directly. Instead, it's "get word to Fredo..." In fact, Fredo's out of the picture until after Michael gets nailed at the Senate hearing--weeks or even months later--when he finally tells Tom, "I want to talk to Fredo." And then Fredo appears, tout-suite.

My question: Why did Michael lose interest in talking to Fredo between the time he returned from Havana, and the Senate confrontation?
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#472409 - 02/13/08 03:37 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
The Last Woltz Offline

Underboss
Registered: 05/04/06
Posts: 624

Loc: Pittsburgh, PA
Interesting question, TB.

I think that Michael, once he calms down, does not view a terrified Fredo as a continuing threat. He also does not believe that Roth/Ola would have told Fredo anything important that Michael does not already know. After all, Michael has learned for sure who his enemy is, and who they had on the inside.

Michael didn't realize that Roth had a Plan B (the perjury trap) ready to go, so he thought he had the upper hand, and that any future plans by Roth wouldn't involve Fredo. And if Roth did use Fredo again, it would be to Michael's advantage to lure Fredo into a false sense of security. You know, keep you enemies closer.
_________________________
"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"

Top
#472415 - 02/13/08 04:27 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: The Last Woltz]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Tom seems a little reluctant to give Michael information about Fredo. First he dodges the question altogether by talking about Roth, and only when Michael becomes insistent does Tom say that Fredo is in New York. This suggests to me that perhaps Fredo and Tom had been in some kind of comunication and Tom was keeping this from Michael. In that scene Tom already seems to be aware that Fredo was in on the treachery because Michael says something to the effect that Tom is to tell Fredo h knows that Roth misled him. This leads me to believe that Tom suspected that Michael would kill Fredo for his betayal, and in his typical fashion was already trying to broker a deal. I could easily see a terrified Fredo calling Tom asking for help, and Tom saying that he should lay low until Michael returns and that he would talk to Michael. In any case when Michael seems to be in a forgiving mood, Tom has no problem contacting Fredo.

Assuming Fredo was led to believe that Michael thought he had been duped by Ola and Roth, he could come back to the compound and live in relative comfort and safety. For Michael, as I said earlier, I think it was simply a case of "keeping his enemies closer." Obviously Fredo would have been striped of any role he previously had in the family business. The thing is that Michael may well have tried to de brief Fredo, as did Tom, but Fredo stonewalled. In fact Fredo knew something of Roth's plan B cause he knew about Questadt, and he never disclosed this to anyone until it was almost too late.
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#472441 - 02/13/08 05:45 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: dontomasso]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
I think both you guys are right:
LW, Michael probably did calm down on the plane ride back for the reasons you said. dt, I figured that Michael had to have phoned Tom as soon as his plane landed in the US (how else would Tom know where to meet him?), and would have told him that Fredo was the traitor. But I like your scenario about Fredo calling Tom in a panic, and Tom, ever the negotiator, already thinking of brokering a deal. That fits nicely.

By the time of the boathouse meeting, Fredo said, "The got Pentangeli, I can tell you that." Well, Michael already knew it because the committee chairman would have had to tell his lawyer, Tom, the identity of the witness to be used against Michael. But I have a suspicion that Fredo's next statement, "That Senate lawyer, Questadt, belongs to Roth," may have been a surprise to Michael. If so, it certainly implied that Fredo was closer to Roth and Ola than he'd let on--and that he'd had info that could have helped his brother if he'd come forward with it sooner. That alone may have cemented Michael's decision to whack Fredo.
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#472443 - 02/13/08 05:50 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
 Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Fredo said, "The got Pentangeli, I can tell you that." Well, Michael already knew it because the committee chairman would have had to tell his lawyer, Tom, the identity of the witness to be used against Michael. But I have a suspicion that Fredo's next statement, "That Senate lawyer, Questadt, belongs to Roth," may have been a surprise to Michael. If so, it certainly implied that Fredo was closer to Roth and Ola than he'd let on--and that he'd had info that could have helped his brother if he'd come forward with it sooner. That alone may have cemented Michael's decision to whack Fredo.


If nothing else it confirmed in Michael's mind that Fredo was a dead man walking. It is proof that Fredo was not kept in the dark as much as he had let on, and that he was still lying to Michael, and possibly still trying to betray him so he could seize control of the Corleone family.

He keeps saying there was "something in it for me" and I think the something was being Don Fredo Corleone. Ola could have easily filled his head with this aspiration, suggesting to him that he had been passed over by his aging and foolish father, etc. etc. etc. Obviously with Michael out of the way and Fredo at the helm the Corleone family would be ripe for the picking by Roth and a few of Roth's allies who would take a piece just to make sure things ran smoothly.
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#560606 - 11/18/09 03:24 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: MaryCas]
yakuza Offline

Associate
Registered: 11/18/09
Posts: 2
As i have understood the character of Michael, he makes instant decisions.
So he decide to kill Fredo in Havana, when he gave the death kiss.
Why he wanted Fredo to come with him to leave Havana, is because he wanted to dig deep in to the motives and to find out who was behind this. Which he later did in the boathouse.

Fredo was dead for him in Havana.....

Top
#560637 - 11/18/09 03:55 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: yakuza]
dontomasso Offline
Consigliere to the Stars


Registered: 02/25/05
Posts: 11296

Loc: With Geary in Fredo's Brothel
Why then did Michael try so hard to persuade Fredo to come with him when Castro was taking over?
_________________________
"Io sono stanco, sono imbigliato, and I wan't everyone here to know, there ain't gonna be no trouble from me..Don Corleone..Cicc' a port!"

"I stood in the courtroom like a fool."

"I am Constanza: Lord of the idiots."


Top
#560664 - 11/18/09 06:08 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: yakuza]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: yakuza

So he decide to kill Fredo in Havana, when he gave the death kiss.
Why he wanted Fredo to come with him to leave Havana, is because he wanted to dig deep in to the motives and to find out who was behind this. Which he later did in the boathouse.

Fredo was dead for him in Havana.....

There's no doubt that the "death kiss" was an unimistakeable "Sicilan message." You could argue that the kiss alone cemented Fredo's death, no matter what.

Originally Posted By: dontomasso
Why then did Michael try so hard to persuade Fredo to come with him when Castro was taking over?


These two posts point up an anomaly (or a script weakness, to tell the truth):
Michael was frantic to get Fredo out of Havana with him that night--no doubt to pump him for more info on his treason, to see if anyone else was in on it. And the first thing Michael asks Tom when he returns to Nevada is, "Where's my brother?"

BUT: After being told that Fredo's in NY, Michael simply tells Tom to get word to him--when in fact he could have ordered Tom to arrange to snatch Fredo off the street immediately, or even have him whacked in NY. And, it seemed, Michael made no effort to contact Fredo until after his perjured testimony at the Senate hearing, which was weeks after his return from Havana. So, why did the urgency over Fredo suddenly disappear?

Although my view may not be the most logical, I believe that Michael might have considered giving his brother a pass, until Fredo's boathouse outburst. That show of rage, resentment and envy meant that there was no way to let Fredo live.
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#560669 - 11/18/09 06:34 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor


Registered: 12/02/06
Posts: 15918

Loc: Throggs Neck
Originally Posted By: Turnbull

Although my view may not be the most logical, I believe that Michael might have considered giving his brother a pass, until Fredo's boathouse outburst. That show of rage, resentment and envy meant that there was no way to let Fredo live.


I agree. Until that outburst, there was at least a possibility of Fredo just getting chased. When Michael saw how Fredo really felt about him, he had no choice.
_________________________
"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.

Top
#560671 - 11/18/09 06:42 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: pizzaboy]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
When Michael saw how Fredo really felt about him, he had no choice.

None whatsoever.
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top
#560728 - 11/19/09 10:25 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
Lilo Offline


Registered: 01/10/08
Posts: 5133

Loc: MI
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: pizzaboy
When Michael saw how Fredo really felt about him, he had no choice.

None whatsoever.


I haven't had an orthodox career, and I've wanted more than anything to have your respect. The first time I didn't feel it, but this time I feel it, and I can't deny the fact that you hate me, right now, you hate me!

-This line (as said by Michael to Fredo after his outburst) was cut from the Godfather 2 script but seen by Sally Field.. rolleyes
_________________________
"When the snows fall and the white winds blow, the lone wolf dies but the pack survives."
Winter is Coming

Now this is the Law of the Jungle—as old and as true as the sky; And the wolf that shall keep it may prosper, but the wolf that shall break it must die.
As the creeper that girdles the tree-trunk, the Law runneth forward and back; For the strength of the Pack is the Wolf, and the strength of the Wolf is the Pack.

Top
#560764 - 11/19/09 06:58 PM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: Turnbull]
goombah Offline


Registered: 02/14/03
Posts: 6290

Loc: Anytown, USA
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
This raises another point:

Michael was frantic to get Fredo on that plane out of Cuba. Obviously he wasn't motivated by brotherly love at that point--he wanted Fredo to pump him for more info about the Tahoe shooting plot. And, when Michael arrives back in Nevada (probably less than 48 hours later since he's wearing the same clothes as in Havana, and is exhausted), the first thing he asks Tom is, "Where's my brother?" Tom obviously knows where Fredo is, because he says, "I think he must be in New York." Michael knows Tom knows where Fredo is because he tells Tom, "I want you to get word to Fredo...I know Roth misled him..."



I had never really contemplated the degree to which Tom was working with Fredo (i.e. knowledge of Fredo's whereabouts after Havana). Obviously, Tom was not in on the Tahoe plot. But now I am wondering - if Michael knew (or just as problematic - believed) that Tom was helping Fredo, was Tom in serious jeopardy himself? Particularly after the obvious sense of betrayal Michael felt after discovering the truth about Fredo's involvement.

My guess for the short-term is "no," Tom would not have been killed, if for no other reason than because Michael needed Tom's legal skills. But if Tom was aligning himself more with Fredo than Michael liked, could anybody else here think that Tom was just as likely to be whacked? More than anyone in GF II, Michael manipulated Tom Hagen. While he would not have been as easy to mislead as Fredo, I think that ultimately Tom could have been lured into a false sense of security by Michael. Tom's problem centered around guilt: 1) not being a wartime consiglieri and allowing Sonny to be killed, 2) allowing Kay to sneak off and have an abortion while Michael was away, 3) Tom's perceived inability to live up to any of Michael's expectations.

Top
#560795 - 11/20/09 01:11 AM Re: When did Michael decide to kill Fredo? [Re: goombah]
Turnbull Offline



Registered: 10/14/01
Posts: 16467

Loc: AZ
...and the fact that he was Sonny's choice for brother, not Michael's. Attest the way he practically wept when Michael said, "You're my brother," and Tom said, "I always wanted to be considered a brother by you"--a surefire indication that he doubted it previously.

I don't think Michael believed Tom was in with Fredo. And, in addition to needing Tom as his lawyer, Michael probably sensed that Tom's relationship with Fredo would help Michael get what he wanted from Fredo--as in, "I wanna talk to Fredo" after the Senate bombshell.
_________________________
Ntra la porta tua lu sangu č sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.

Top

Moderator:  Don Cardi, J Geoff, SC, Turnbull