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Why Tom? #1012393
05/24/21 10:19 AM
05/24/21 10:19 AM
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Don_Alfonso Offline OP
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From what I remember in the novel, Vito naming Tom the Family Consigliere ruffles a lot of feathers in the crime world, they take a serious blow in the respect department (as I recall, they're called the Irish Family or something by the other Families). Not only that, but to the underlings in the Family, the made guys, it had to be a slap in the face, especially in the 1940s when Italians and Irish people didn't get along. Also, imagine if you're Tessio say. You're smart. You've been with Vito almost as long as Genco was. This Irish lawyer kid gets a promotion that technically puts him above you in the pecking order.

It's a choice that's never made sense to me. Yes, Tom's savvy as a lawyer was extremely helpful, but I feel like they could've still exploited his skills without making him Consigliere. He doesn't really do much in the role, either - Sonny doesn't seem to take much of his counsel, for example, and Michael removes him as soon as he takes over. Even when Michael technically makes him Acting Boss, it's really only Acting Boss of the legitimate Nevada wing of the Family, not the crime family as a whole (presumably, Joey Zasa or someone else is given Frankie Five Angels' role as Street Boss of NY).

Last edited by Don_Alfonso; 05/24/21 10:20 AM.
Re: Why Tom? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #1012437
05/25/21 02:52 AM
05/25/21 02:52 AM
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Turnbull Offline
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I started a thread on that subject tha'em.t raises the same questions:
http://www.gangsterbb.net/threads/ubbthreads.php?ubb=showflat&Number=761864&Searchpage=1&Main=29538&Words=%2Bliability&Search=true#Post761864
But, who else was available? Not Sonny, unless the only counseling Vito was looking for was "kill 'em." Not Tess or Clem, who were needed as operating officers. And not Michael, who wasn't in the Olive Oil Business at that time and seemingly didn't want any part of it. Vito had a real problem with succession planning.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why Tom? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #1012449
05/25/21 08:42 AM
05/25/21 08:42 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,463
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mustachepete Offline
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I think sometimes Vito is looking ahead. For instance, when Tom says getting into drugs is important because they'll be the big thing in ten years, Vito may be thinking that he wants to be free of a lot of what they do in ten years. So Tom the lawyer might be the guy who Vito thinks might be best suited to transition the family to the next generation.

Also, Tom is smart, and therefore is a Michael substitute. As TB points out, the family has a crisis of leadership and succession. At least as the book/movie opens, Vito's seeing if he can yoke Sonny and Tom together to run the family in the future, each contributing something the other doesn't have.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Why Tom? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #1016507
07/21/21 12:02 AM
07/21/21 12:02 AM
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Lana Offline
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My take, for what it is worth!

At the end of the day, the buck stops with Vito, the Don whether the Consigliere is Genco or Tom

I don't think the underlinks, the made guys in Vito's crime family would have cared that Tom was made Consigliere [unlike perhaps when the Don's 'inexperienced' son Mikey took over the Donship] because they were all in the muscle-end which is considered the prestigious and vital arm! of the whole operation

Sollozzo told Tom like Tom was small potatoes!
Quote
I know you are not in the muscle-end of the family Tom so I don't want you to be scared

However Sollozzo thought enough of Tom expecting Tom to make peace and make the narcotics deal

Sonny did take Tom's counsel -
  • Sonny agreed to wait until Michael piped up “killing Pop is the key” and offered to kill both McCluskey and Sollozzo
  • after Sonny's “Pop had Genco look what I got” Sonny apologised to Tom and did not go after Tattaglia

Michael removed Tom as Consigliere as Vito himself said because of Vito's advice

“When Michael technically makes him [Tom] Acting Boss, it's really only Acting Boss of the legitimate Nevada wing of the Family” complete power over Fredo and his men [what men?!] Rocco, Neri everyone in Nevada because that was all what was required
Also “who else was available?” same conundrum! as Vito's Consigliere candidates

Besides the crime family was still being run by Pentangeli at that time “as Street Boss of NY”

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Lana] #1017344
08/03/21 06:19 AM
08/03/21 06:19 AM
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Capri Offline
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Rocco didn't like when he told get rid of the bodies wanted to know Where's Mike?

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Capri] #1017563
08/06/21 07:42 PM
08/06/21 07:42 PM
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Evita Offline
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He wasn't happy taking orders from Tom

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Evita] #1017586
08/07/21 04:23 AM
08/07/21 04:23 AM
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Adelaide, Australia
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lucab19 Offline
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Originally Posted by Capri
Rocco didn't like when he told get rid of the bodies wanted to know Where's Mike?

Originally Posted by Evita
He wasn't happy taking orders from Tom


I think events happened so quickly that Michael didn't have time to tell anyone other than Tom of the new arrangement. Hence the "where's Michael?" Well, maybe Neri. Remember that during the Johnny Ola meeting, Rocco was given the (highly important) task of feeding Ola's men. That's a pretty clear pecking order.


Last edited by lucab19; 08/07/21 06:28 AM.
Re: Why Tom? [Re: lucab19] #1017609
08/07/21 02:50 PM
08/07/21 02:50 PM
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Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by lucab19
Originally Posted by Capri
Rocco didn't like when he told get rid of the bodies wanted to know Where's Mike?

Originally Posted by Evita
He wasn't happy taking orders from Tom


I think events happened so quickly that Michael didn't have time to tell anyone other than Tom of the new arrangement. Hence the "where's Michael?" Well, maybe Neri. Remember that during the Johnny Ola meeting, Rocco was given the (highly important) task of feeding Ola's men. That's a pretty clear pecking order.


All good points. smile

I've often wondered about Tom's relationship with Rocco and Neri. He was solid with Tess and Clem because he was raised by Vito as a son (they might have been like his uncles). Vito trusted Tom completely and had appointed him consigliere and made him his official go-between when handing down orders. But, Michael never really warmed to Tom--he was Sonny's choice for a brother, not Michael's; Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Michael fired him as consigliere in GF. And, just hours before the Tahoe shooting, Michael had introduced Tom to Johnny Ola as "my lawyer," and said Tom would not sit in on the Havana negotiations--a real humiliation. Rocco and Neri were the trusted parties for that deal. They probably had no respect for Tom because he was not Michael's consigliere, was not Italian, and hadn't come up from the muscle side of the business. And, as Luca pointed out, everything after the shooting happened so quickly that Rocco didn't even know where Michael was.

So, we have to wonder: how if at all did Michael communicate that Tom would be in complete charge while he was away--and that they were to obey his orders as if Tom were Michael? It must have been especially tricky for Tom because, as Michael told him before leaving, he couldn't completely dismiss the possibility that Rocco and/or Neri were in on the shooting.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1017630
08/07/21 08:35 PM
08/07/21 08:35 PM
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Evita Offline
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We'd debated their relationship in Do you blame Tom for Sonny's death? thread I reckon there was warmth

Michael fired him as consigliere in GF because He's gonna be our lawyer in Vegas which was because of Vito advised and there are reasons why he must have no part in what is going to happen, keeping him clean for the legitimate gambling business No reflection on Tom

Ola's meeting was about moving Klingman out, not involving the Havana negotiations and Rocco was not at that meeting He was feeding Ola's men

Rocco obeyed his orders after Tom's stern Rocco

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Evita] #1017659
08/07/21 11:05 PM
08/07/21 11:05 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,505
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Turnbull Offline
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Originally Posted by Evita

Ola's meeting was about moving Klingman out, not involving the Havana negotiations and Rocco was not at that meeting He was feeding Ola's men


Ola dispensed with moving Klingman out as a preliminary to actual meeting. Michael said to Ola: "Tom isn't gonna sit in with us -- he only handles specific areas of the family business" .When Tom says he'll be outside, Michael replies, "Just tell Rocco we're waiting." Ola didn't come that far West just to tell Michael that he could move Klingman out.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Why Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1017710
08/08/21 07:20 PM
08/08/21 07:20 PM
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Evita Offline
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I will have to watch that scene again but as I remember, Tom already out of the room before moving Klingman out was discussed and there was no mention of Havana

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1017923
08/13/21 12:06 AM
08/13/21 12:06 AM
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Posts: 755
Australia
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Lana Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by lucab19
Originally Posted by Capri
Rocco didn't like when he told get rid of the bodies wanted to know Where's Mike?
Originally Posted by Evita
He wasn't happy taking orders from Tom
I think events happened so quickly that Michael didn't have time to tell anyone other than Tom of the new arrangement. Hence the "where's Michael?" Well, maybe Neri. Remember that during the Johnny Ola meeting, Rocco was given the (highly important) task of feeding Ola's men. That's a pretty clear pecking order
All good points. smile

And, as Luca pointed out, everything after the shooting happened so quickly that Rocco didn't even know where Michael was

So, we have to wonder: how if at all did Michael communicate that Tom would be in complete charge while he was away--and that they were to obey his orders as if Tom were Michael? It must have been especially tricky for Tom because, as Michael told him before leaving, he couldn't completely dismiss the possibility that Rocco and/or Neri were in on the shooting
Originally Posted by Evita
Rocco obeyed his orders after Tom's stern Rocco
I believe Neri and Rocco would know if Tom was issuing orders that is because this authority had been vested on Tom by Michael himself

Also Rocco would have been very, very scared how Rocco as the Security Chief had botched the security of the Tahoe compound fortress with sentry, armed guards, dogs etc. and how this security breach / lapse had allowed Rocco's boss, the Top Mafia Don's bedroom to be machine gun sprayed

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Lana] #1017970
08/13/21 07:31 PM
08/13/21 07:31 PM
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Evita Offline
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The buttonmen told Kay she can't leave, on Mr Hagen's orders

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Turnbull] #1018094
08/16/21 04:09 AM
08/16/21 04:09 AM
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Capri Offline
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Capri  Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull

I've often wondered about Tom's relationship with Rocco and Neri. He was solid with Tess and Clem because he was raised by Vito as a son (they might have been like his uncles). Vito trusted Tom completely and had appointed him consigliere and made him his official go-between when handing down orders. But, Michael never really warmed to Tom--he was Sonny's choice for a brother, not Michael's; Vito's choice for consigliere, not Michael's. Michael fired him as consigliere in GF. And, just hours before the Tahoe shooting, Michael had introduced Tom to Johnny Ola as "my lawyer," and said Tom would not sit in on the Havana negotiations--a real humiliation. Rocco and Neri were the trusted parties for that deal. They probably had no respect for Tom because he was not Michael's consigliere, was not Italian, and hadn't come up from the muscle side of the business.


Havana and $2M President gift already arranged Nothing for Roth Sicilian messenger boy to mention

They obeyed his orders
had Genco come up from the muscle side of the business?

Re: Why Tom? [Re: Don_Alfonso] #1018096
08/16/21 05:29 AM
08/16/21 05:29 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,463
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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Quote
had Genco come up from the muscle side of the business?


In the book, at least. He joined Vito and Luca on the visit to the bandleader.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."

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