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"This war ends now" #1008844
04/01/21 11:13 PM
04/01/21 11:13 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,687
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,687
AZ
Vito was in no condition to provide any help or advice to Sonny and Tom while he was in the hospital. And, when he returned home, he was still too weak to assist (he was barely able to whisper, "Where's Michael?"). But, he seemed to have recovered some of his strength by the time Sonny was assassinated because he was able to go downstairs to his office to get the bad news from Tom, and to get dressed and walk into Bonasera's mortuary that night. And, he didn't seem feeble or compromised at the Commission meeting, which probably was held not long after that.

My question: Do you think Vito was counseling Sonny and Tom, and even calling the shots, at some time between his return home and Sonny's death? And, if so, what do you think he was advising?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Turnbull] #1008847
04/01/21 11:27 PM
04/01/21 11:27 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,905
Texas
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olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
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Texas
TB, I've always figured that only several months at most elapsed between Vito's return to the Mall and the Don' meeting. Could Vito have been advising Sonny and Tom? Could be. However, I doubt it. Why? Because Vito would never have countenanced Sonny's continued attacks against the other families and I doubt that Sonny would have disobeyed Vito.

As many of us experience when we are faced with a crisis, Vito reached deep down inside himself to collect all of his strength to do what was necessary to save his family and Michael. However, that effort drained him.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Turnbull] #1008850
04/02/21 01:22 AM
04/02/21 01:22 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 332
Australia
Lana Offline
Capo
Lana  Offline
Capo
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 332
Australia
As Sonny said to Tom “Pop can't do nothin' til he's better” Then necessity because of Sonny's death

Besides Vito upset and angry it was Michael who killed Sollozzo and McCluskey may have believed or wanting to believe that Sonny with Tom had the business [if Vito still cared!] under control as well as can be, at least on the surface because among others -

  • Sollozzo and McCluskey were dead
  • Newspapers printing McCluskey being linked with Sollozzo in the drug rackets
  • No other killings after Bruno Tattaglia
  • things are starting to loosen up
  • Fredo going to Las Vegas to learn the casino business under the protection of Don Francesco

Hence I think under the circumstances there was really no need for Vito to be “counseling Sonny and Tom” even if Vito was up to it After all they managed when Vito was in hospital and pulled off Sollozzo and McCluskey's murders

However if Vito was “counseling Sonny and Tom” Vito probably would have advised the same or similar as Tom did to Sonny –

  • business especially the Corleone business needs to continue more so than the others because of the Corleones' own overheads
  • The Corleones can't afford a stalemate!
  • not to go after old pimp Tattaglia
  • Let the smoke clear until the Corleones are in a position to 'negotiate'

Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Turnbull] #1008862
04/02/21 09:27 AM
04/02/21 09:27 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,262
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,262
No. Virginia
I think that a lot of detail got lost in the movie because the whole course of the war was messed up in the novel. With respect to this question, Vito insisted on the war council being done in his presence so that he could exercise his veto (HA!). Sonny then embarked on his Reign of Terror, and Tom didn't appeal to Vito because the strategy seemed to be working. Obviously, if Vito was included on any level he should have known that his people were shooting every target they could find, and both Sonny and Tom were actively concealing that information from him.

So, in the movie I think that Coppola's answer was to chuck all of that: Vito was brought up to date when he got home, at most was lightly advised of any developments, and rallied his strength only when he heard strange goings-on in the night.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: "This war ends now" [Re: mustachepete] #1008973
04/03/21 10:51 PM
04/03/21 10:51 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 204
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Evita Offline
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Evita  Offline
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Posts: 204
He had to rally his strength when Sonny died

Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Evita] #1009118
04/06/21 10:59 PM
04/06/21 10:59 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,687
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 18,687
AZ
I believe that Vito would be inclined to negotiate a truce sooner rather than later--war gets in the way of business. But, he was in no position to negotiate from his hospital bed or sick room, and he couldn't trust Sonny with such a sensitive task. On the other hand, Sonny was an excellent tactical warrior (the novel says he had "a genius for urban guerilla warfare"). And, since Sonny had fought the other families to a "stalemate" (the novel again), Vito could afford to let Sonny have his way with the war while he recovered and planned the family's next strategic moves.

So, I'm guessing, Sonny and Vito had an unspoken arrangement: Sonny would brief Vito from time to time on the progress of the war, Vito would say nothing, or simply nod.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Turnbull] #1009174
04/07/21 06:20 PM
04/07/21 06:20 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,905
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 14,905
Texas
I missed what Pete pointed out above: the novel states that Vito frequently held a war council and exercised a veto over proposed actions. Thus, Vito must have been aware of what Sonny was doing. As the novel further states, Sonny's war of attrition seemed to be working. So, I can only figure Vito must have approved Sonny's war actions. However, as TB points out, all of that seems to contradict what we know of Vito: he only resorted to violence when he had to. Well, TB may be right that Vito was just biding his time until he was well enough to negotiate and that negotiation would be from a position of strength based on Sonny's war of attrition.

However, if all of that is true, then why did Vito not foresee the Five Families plan to murder Sonny? We tend to blame Tom, but if Vito was as involved in the war as we speculate, then Vito should have seen it coming.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Turnbull] #1009187
04/07/21 10:38 PM
04/07/21 10:38 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 204
E
Evita Offline
Made Member
Evita  Offline
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Made Member
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Posts: 204
I don't think we see Vito again “Pop can't do nothin' til he's better” until Sonny's death

No doubt the Dons face death every day but reckon nobody saw it coming from Carlo
Tom ran after Sonny and did try to stop him before sending the buttonmen after him

Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Evita] #1009197
04/08/21 07:20 AM
04/08/21 07:20 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 130
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Capri Offline
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Capri  Offline
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Posts: 130
Would they known of the public beating

Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Capri] #1009257
Yesterday at 12:27 AM
Yesterday at 12:27 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 332
Australia
Lana Offline
Capo
Lana  Offline
Capo
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 332
Australia
In fairness to Vito and perhaps even Tom? they may not have known? about Sonny's public beating of Carlo However

Top 10 frequently asked questions
Originally Posted by Lana
Vito had such contempt for Carlo yet he allowed Carlo and Connie's marriage to go ahead
Vito giving Carlo just a living “Never [give Carlo something important] Give him a living but never discuss the Family business with him”

This failure of Vito, made the low life parasite, wife beater, resent so much so that Carlo was beating Connie even when she was pregnant and setting Santino up to be murdered albeit revenge for Santino's public beating and humiliation of Carlo which may not have happened if Carlo had been given something important

If anybody is to be blamed for Sonny's death it is Mama! for passing Connie's phone call onto Sonny

Re: "This war ends now" [Re: Lana] #1009334
Yesterday at 09:53 PM
Yesterday at 09:53 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 204
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Evita Offline
Made Member
Evita  Offline
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Made Member
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Posts: 204
It will come as no surprise if Tom didn't know about Sonny's public beating of Carlo However even if he did nobody could have seen it coming from Carlo


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