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"My brother Tom Hagen" #877691
03/08/16 02:36 PM
03/08/16 02:36 PM
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That's how Michael introduced Kay to Tom at Connie's wedding. But, as GF and II progressed, I think it was pretty evident that Michael didn't really regard Tom as his brother. Even right after the Tahoe shooting, when Michael was putting Tom in charge, and he said, "Tom, you're my brother," Tom practically broke down in tears when he replied, "I always wanted to thought of as a brother by you, Mikey -- a real brother." Tom's statement tells me that he knew Michael never regarded him as "a real brother." We see a very explicit example in the flashback scene at the end of II, after Michael announces that he's joining the Marines. Tom says that he and "your father [not "Pop" or "our father"] have discussed your future many times." Michael replies, "You talked to my father about my future?" Not exactly brotherly talk...

Michael grew up with Tom in the same household, with Tom being treated by his father as a full member of the family--and with Sonny (and probably Fredo) accepting him as a real brother. Why didn't Michael accept Tom as a real brother?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877700
03/08/16 04:11 PM
03/08/16 04:11 PM
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As the movies progressed, it seemed that Tom was the only person to question Michael's plans or decisions.

When it appeared that Michael may be going a bit too far or excessive, Tom spoke up. Often, drawing Michael's rage.

By the end of Part 2, it appeared that Michael had nothing but disdain and resentment for Tom. I think Michael was truly jealous of Tom.

Even though Tom had a mistress and Michael didn't, I think he was envious of the life Tom led.

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877701
03/08/16 04:39 PM
03/08/16 04:39 PM
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I think Tom's ultimate loyalty is to Vito, so he'll try to serve the Family as Vito perceived it. The second part of it is that Tom is about as smart as Michael, so Michael might steamroll him but Tom won't always walk away thinking Michael was right.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877722
03/08/16 09:09 PM
03/08/16 09:09 PM
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Tom refers to Vito as "your father" both when talking to Mike about his future,as well as when he tells Sonny "If your father dies,you make the deal". Also when he goes to tell Vito about Sonny's death,Vito says that Tom should "tell your Don" (not your father)what everyone already seems to know.It was understood that Tom was as close to the Family as any non-blood relation could be,but he was never given official (i.e. adoptive) status. The novel goes into this a little more.

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877738
03/09/16 12:43 AM
03/09/16 12:43 AM
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TB, Tom tells Michael "Pop had to pull alot of strings to get you a deferment."


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877790
03/09/16 06:32 PM
03/09/16 06:32 PM
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I think that the novel says that Vito was always more formal and respectful towards Tom than with his natural sons.

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #877907
03/10/16 05:55 PM
03/10/16 05:55 PM
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There are truths and accuracies in the above posts. Vito accepted Tom into his household without commenting on it. He did not show affection to Tom until a brief display upon Sonny's death. As TB states, Michael introduced Tom to Kay as his brother, but went on to describe him as a good lawyer although not a Sicilian. Michael and Sonny and Tom used the phrase "your father" (or similar language) that seems to set Tom apart from Vito (and them). However, I think that those instances are just a function of Puzo's discontinuity.

Now, as I've posted elsewhere several times, the novel states that Sonny and Tom were like actual brothers, but that Michael and Tom were not close at all. My own analysis is that Michael blamed Tom for the decline of the Corleones due to his failure to anticipate and protect the family from the events that led to that decline. Of course, the highlight of that decline was Sonny's murder.

In II, Michael kept Tom out of the loop unless and until he could not afford to keep Tom out of the loop. As others have stated, Michael made Tom the Don after the attempted murder simply because he could not trust anyone else. Also as others have stated, Michael uses Tom when Michael needs to use Tom and that that usefulness comes full cycle when Michael challenges Tom to go along with him or get out.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #878000
03/11/16 11:12 AM
03/11/16 11:12 AM
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I always thought that as time went on, Michael became more and more old style. In the beginning he introduced him as his brother and as time went on and he became involved in the family business he treated him differently. Oddly in contrast to his father's treatment of Tom.


"After all, we are not communists"

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Tony Soprano: Yeah well, when you're married, you'll understand the importance of fresh produce.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #879776
03/30/16 10:29 AM
03/30/16 10:29 AM
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There is of course the scene near the start of Part II where Michael tells Tom he loves him and has left him 'out' of the business to protect him, but this is contradicted by various other scenes of Mike being cold towards Tom both before and after this scene. The way he tells Tom he is 'out' in the first film is ruthless.


Sonny - Well then, business will have to suffer, all right? And listen, do me a favor, Tom. No more advice on how to patch things up, just help me win, please
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: olivant] #880697
04/06/16 07:17 PM
04/06/16 07:17 PM
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Originally Posted By: olivant

In II, Michael kept Tom out of the loop unless and until he could not afford to keep Tom out of the loop. As others have stated, Michael made Tom the Don after the attempted murder simply because he could not trust anyone else. Also as others have stated, Michael uses Tom when Michael needs to use Tom and that that usefulness comes full cycle when Michael challenges Tom to go along with him or get out.


In II, Tom is still operating under the conditions which Vito and Michael had set up upon Michael becoming the Don.

That scene where Michael dismisses Tom ("he only manages parts of the family business") and Vito tries to explain why things are like they are (Vito is now playing the part of consigliere) is key. Perhaps there was a bit of "good cop bad cop" to it, but it strikes me that Michael's attitude towards Tom is cold and dismissive.

When Michael has to make Tom the Don, it certainly is an admission that Tom is the only person he can trust who has the skills and authority to act in his name. But it is true that by the end, when Michael out and out blackmails Tom by threatening to reveal his infidelity, that whatever Michael feels is Tom's value as a lawyer and a strategist, he has no real respect for him. Michael simply does not view Tom as a brother in the same way that Sonny did.

I also think, to some extent that by the end of II, Michael has so wholly been transformed not only by the attempted murder of himself and his family, but by Fredo and Kate's betrayal of him, that he really has become a completely solitary figure; isolated from humanity. That final scene of him looking out at the lake as Fredo is executed shows the man that Michael Corleone has become, so it's little wonder that he treats the only man left in his entire inner circle who he could conceivably trust completely with such disrespect and contempt. By the end of II, even Connie seems to have become little more than a functionary.

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: The Hollywood Finochio] #880698
04/06/16 07:22 PM
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Originally Posted By: The Hollywood Finochio
There is of course the scene near the start of Part II where Michael tells Tom he loves him and has left him 'out' of the business to protect him, but this is contradicted by various other scenes of Mike being cold towards Tom both before and after this scene. The way he tells Tom he is 'out' in the first film is ruthless.


Frankly, I think Michael knew which buttons of Tom's to push. He knew how to make Tom feel terrible, and he also knew how he could command Tom's respect. The way he makes Tom the Don isn't an example of two brothers reuniting after a period of emotional distance, it's an example of Michael ruthlessly toying with Tom's emotions to get what he wants. By the end of that very brief conversation, when Tom seems to me to be on the verge of being overwhelmed by emotion that Michael really does love him, I think Tom would have done literally anything Michael asked. But frankly, I think it's one-sided. Michael isn't sincere, he just knows how to reinforce Tom's loyalty.

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: ToadBrother] #880722
04/06/16 11:04 PM
04/06/16 11:04 PM
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Yes, Michael was at his most manipulative right after the Tahoe shooting. After practically reducing Tom to tears with that "you're my brother" BS, he worked over Pentangeli by screaming at him ("...in my bedroom...where my wife sleeps...where my children play with their toys..."), then, when he tells Frankie, "I want you to help me take my revenge," Frankie practically collapses with relief. "Michael, anything." Bingo: Michael says, "Settle these problems with the Rosatos." He asked Frankie to meet with his hated enemies--put his head in the lion's mouth. If he settled up, so much the better for Michael--one less problem. If the Rosatos killed him or tried, more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting. Michael couldn't lose, Frankie couldn't wine.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #880778
04/07/16 06:09 PM
04/07/16 06:09 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Yes, Michael was at his most manipulative right after the Tahoe shooting. After practically reducing Tom to tears with that "you're my brother" BS, he worked over Pentangeli by screaming at him ("...in my bedroom...where my wife sleeps...where my children play with their toys..."), then, when he tells Frankie, "I want you to help me take my revenge," Frankie practically collapses with relief. "Michael, anything." Bingo: Michael says, "Settle these problems with the Rosatos." He asked Frankie to meet with his hated enemies--put his head in the lion's mouth. If he settled up, so much the better for Michael--one less problem. If the Rosatos killed him or tried, more proof that Roth was behind the Tahoe shooting. Michael couldn't lose, Frankie couldn't wine.


II has often be described as how Michael becomes an evil man. The more I think about it, the more I think Michael became an evil man at the end of I. II could be better described as how an evil man manipulates the world around him.

My feeling is that if the murder of Sollozzo and McClusky didn't turn him to the dark side, so to speak, then I think his time in Sicily did. The dividing line, to me, lies in the long stretch of time between Appolonia's murder and Michael's surprise visit to Kay. Even in Sicily, he's still "Mike", perhaps beaten and bruised, but still capable of tender feelings.

Look at the way he courts Appolonia, and then he re-acquaints himself with Kay. One is romantic; Michael seems genuinely smitten. When he reappears in Kay's life, it almost feels transactional, like he's making a deal.

I'm not saying he doesn't love Kay, but rather the whole way Michael views the world after his return from Sicily has changed. He's cold, distant, and when he does show genuine emotion, you can never really be sure if it's genuine, or just manipulation. He seems to have replaced the notions of love that he must have held in his youth with notions of absolute loyalty. Even Vito, I think, understood the difference between love and loyalty. When Sonny opens his big mouth in front of Sollozzo, Vito's response is a sort of "You silly young fool", but with a tinge of understanding that Sonny isn't always the brightest of people. When Fredo does the same thing, and in a setting that represents far less of a potential threat to the Family, Michael's response isn't "You stupid moron", it's a cold response "Never take sides against the family". Fredo isn't a brother, he's a functionary. Sure Michael loves him, but he doesn't respect him, and I think the same applies to Tom. Michael and Tom certainly have their bond, and while it's not as familial as Sonny and Tom's bond, but that bond is nothing compared to the requirement of absolute loyalty.

I guess the point I'm trying to get to is that Vito, in a way, never lost his humanity. He makes it clear in his last talk with Michael that he won't apologize for the things he had to do to keep his family safe, but at the same he views himself first and foremost as a father, and not the Godfather. He still seems to know the difference. I don't think, by the end of I, and certainly throughout II, that Michael does know the difference. He's as smart as Vito, but he's almost more of a machine; a cold, cunning man capable of very little genuine warmth.

I think Coppola and Puzo underscored that point in how Vito died as compared to how Michael died. At the end of I, Vito has become a gardener and a grandfather, a man who plays with his grandson. Vito has found some sort of meaning or redemption at the end of a long path of criminality. Michael, on the other hand, dies alone, not even a young child to mourn his passing.

Last edited by ToadBrother; 04/07/16 06:13 PM.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: ToadBrother] #880870
04/08/16 07:14 PM
04/08/16 07:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: ToadBrother
At the end of I, Vito has become a gardener and a grandfather, a man who plays with his grandson. Vito has found some sort of meaning or redemption at the end of a long path of criminality. Michael, on the other hand, dies alone, not even a young child to mourn his passing.


In the novel, Vito's dying words were: "Life is so beautiful." The last words of Michael's life probably were "arf-arf" from that little dog who was his final companion.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #880904
04/08/16 11:45 PM
04/08/16 11:45 PM
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Originally Posted By: Turnbull
Originally Posted By: ToadBrother
At the end of I, Vito has become a gardener and a grandfather, a man who plays with his grandson. Vito has found some sort of meaning or redemption at the end of a long path of criminality. Michael, on the other hand, dies alone, not even a young child to mourn his passing.


In the novel, Vito's dying words were: "Life is so beautiful." The last words of Michael's life probably were "arf-arf" from that little dog who was his final companion.


It's only a novel TB, but I find those words hard to swallow as Vito's last.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
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Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: olivant] #880935
04/09/16 10:38 AM
04/09/16 10:38 AM
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Originally Posted By: olivant

It's only a novel TB, but I find those words hard to swallow as Vito's last.


Maybe he was going for the Maurice Chevalier, "Life is so beautiful...when you consider the alternative," but didn't quite make it to the punchline.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: mustachepete] #880945
04/09/16 02:54 PM
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Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: olivant

It's only a novel TB, but I find those words hard to swallow as Vito's last.


Maybe he was going for the Maurice Chevalier, "Life is so beautiful...when you consider the alternative," but didn't quite make it to the punchline.


clap clap


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: olivant] #880951
04/09/16 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted By: olivant
Originally Posted By: mustachepete
Originally Posted By: olivant

It's only a novel TB, but I find those words hard to swallow as Vito's last.


Maybe he was going for the Maurice Chevalier, "Life is so beautiful...when you consider the alternative," but didn't quite make it to the punchline.


clap clap

"Every little breeze seems to whisper Louise..." wink


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: olivant] #1007070
03/13/21 12:15 AM
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Originally Posted by olivant
Now, as I've posted elsewhere several times, the novel states that Sonny and Tom were like actual brothers, but that Michael and Tom were not close at all.


Indeed, when Tom is released by Solozzo and returns to the compound, Sonny is so happy and relieved that Michael realises that he can never be as close to Sonny as Tom is. He is jealous and resentful at this realisation.

One thing neither the novel nor the film explore is the relationship between Tom and Fredo. The only real interaction I can remember is from II, when Fredo asks if he can talk to Mike and Tom tells him rather coldly "No Chance."

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007075
03/13/21 01:33 AM
03/13/21 01:33 AM
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Quote
The only real interaction I can remember is from II, when Fredo asks if he can talk to Mike and Tom tells him rather coldly "No Chance."


There's also a quick exchange in the Michael-Moe scene where Fredo tries to get Tom to intervene with Vito and, again, Tom shuts Fredo down.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: lucab19] #1007101
03/13/21 02:02 PM
03/13/21 02:02 PM
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Originally Posted by lucab19



One thing neither the novel nor the film explore is the relationship between Tom and Fredo. The only real interaction I can remember is from II, when Fredo asks if he can talk to Mike and Tom tells him rather coldly "No Chance."

We only saw Tom and Fredo together when Michael or others were present, and then (in the examples you and Pete cited), Tom was "on duty." I can't prove this, but I sense that Tom may have felt a bond with Fredo, and even may have felt protective toward him, because they were both treated shabbily by Michael.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007160
03/13/21 10:41 PM
03/13/21 10:41 PM
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Fredo was treated shabbily by Vito too Also in a way, Tom too by appointing him knowing he was not consigliere material whom Michael inherited

Sonny treated them shabbily too

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Evita] #1007171
03/14/21 02:33 AM
03/14/21 02:33 AM
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Vito was smart enough to know that Tom wasn't a wartime consigliere. But, who else was there? I guess Vito was hoping that there'd be no war to test Tom. In the meanwhile, he counted on Tom to control Sonny's temper, and to be the family's political front man.

Sonny treated Tom shabbily before that family dinner ("Pop had Genco, look who I got") but he apologized immediately. Michael dissed Tom several times and didn't apologize once.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007476
03/16/21 07:38 PM
03/16/21 07:38 PM
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It was just the one time and this time it was good advice from Tom but point taken

Some smart for someone who spent his life trying not to be careless!
1. still appointed him Other families will give him an easy ride because he is not a Sicilian and no war to test him
2. what did he do to control Sonny's temper? He was a bad Don but still would have become the Don if he had not been killed
3. what did he do for Fredo -- well -- Fredo was – well

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007508
03/16/21 10:48 PM
03/16/21 10:48 PM
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This is dependent on how much some accepts interplay between the book and the movie: I don't think Tom would be blamed for not restraining Sonny. During the wedding, Vito sees Sonny chasing skirt instead of attending to business, and Vito thinks:

Quote
It was hopeless.... If he refused to be instructed, Santino could never run the family business, could never become a Don. He would have to find somebody else. And soon.


Within that context, it seems clear that Vito wasn't just sparing Tom's feelings when he told Tom that Sonny had been a bad don. It also seems likely that at some point in Michael's years of training Vito told him that no one could talk to Sonny, and that his death was on him.



Last edited by mustachepete; 03/16/21 11:10 PM.

"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007541
03/17/21 01:53 PM
03/17/21 01:53 PM
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Good analysis Pete. I agree.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: mustachepete] #1007564
03/17/21 04:26 PM
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Originally Posted by mustachepete

Within that context, it seems clear that Vito wasn't just sparing Tom's feelings when he told Tom that Sonny had been a bad don. It also seems likely that at some point in Michael's years of training Vito told him that no one could talk to Sonny, and that his death was on him.



I hadn't thought of that before, Pete, but I think you're right. smile


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1007795
03/19/21 12:05 AM
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If anybody is to be blamed for Sonny's death it is Mama! for passing Connie's phone call onto Sonny

Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Turnbull] #1012835
05/31/21 03:41 AM
05/31/21 03:41 AM
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Don_Alfonso Offline
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Originally Posted by Turnbull
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Sonny treated Tom shabbily before that family dinner ("Pop had Genco, look who I got") but he apologized immediately. Michael dissed Tom several times and didn't apologize once.


That's a key to understanding the relationships. Tom yells at Sonny, Sonny yells at Tom, but it's more like two brothers fighting, and Sonny as you note immediately feels bad and warmly invites Tom to dinner, and says "Mama" made dinner, not "My mother made dinner." You can tell he's genuinely remorseful for snapping at Tom and knows he hurt his feelings. Sonny may have been a bad Don but he was a human being.

Michael didn't seem to have a single bone of love in his body for Tom. To Michael, Tom was Sonny's friend who Vito adopted who was useful. Beyond that, he was a weak and contemptible man given to whoring, a useless Consigliere, but a good lawyer who was useful and whose need to feel truly part of the Family could be exploited. That's it. He was utterly willing to cut Tom out of his life fully and permanently for even contemplating a job offer, and humiliated him as a man in front of people who are on paper subordinate to him. He had little use for Tom beyond what Tom was useful for.

Last edited by Don_Alfonso; 05/31/21 03:42 AM.
Re: "My brother Tom Hagen" [Re: Don_Alfonso] #1012866
05/31/21 02:33 PM
05/31/21 02:33 PM
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Originally Posted by Don_Alfonso
Originally Posted by Turnbull
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Sonny treated Tom shabbily before that family dinner ("Pop had Genco, look who I got") but he apologized immediately. Michael dissed Tom several times and didn't apologize once.


That's a key to understanding the relationships. Tom yells at Sonny, Sonny yells at Tom, but it's more like two brothers fighting, and Sonny as you note immediately feels bad and warmly invites Tom to dinner, and says "Mama" made dinner, not "My mother made dinner." You can tell he's genuinely remorseful for snapping at Tom and knows he hurt his feelings. Sonny may have been a bad Don but he was a human being.
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I quite agree with what you say about Sonny. He's a hothead who speaks too spontaneously but he never aimed at hurting Tom. Like you say, they yell at each other but are also very comfortable with each other, as is shown also in that flashback scene at the end of G2.

In the "Look what I've got !" scene, there was something to explore with the inkling that Tom might not be the consigliere he needs during wartime (and yet, he had some good advice that Sonny should have heeded), but the reflexion stops and is forsaken when Sonny realises he is more or less telling his adoptive brother : "You are not one of us." The priority for Sonny is his family; he cares about his brother Tom a lot more than about the restructuration of the organization.

Contrast that with Michael in the boathouse scene. He coldly aims at hurting. The mistress comment was deliberate, not a case of speaking too quickly and not meaning it.

However, I think Michael 's reasons are more complex than just not having a "single bone of love in his body for Tom. "
It is possible at that moment he is not able to love, and yes, he has never been that close to Tom, but still ...
He has been betrayed and is hypervigilent and paranoid, only looking for any sign of betrayal. This distorts his judgment.
He needs Tom but can only express it through bullying.
At that moment, he also clearly favors Al Neri ( who represents efficient vendetta) than the lawyer Tom Hagen ( who represents legitimating business, which is lomg, full of setbacks for which Mike has no patience).

I also think that in Michael icy/numb mind, the spat with Tom is settled when speaks Italian with him. "Allora, tu stai ? Si, Io sto".
Not for us ! That's far from settling the indignity inflicted upon Tom and the lack of appreciation for all he has done, but in Mike's mind, unable to feel empathy at that point, he might be satisfied that he can trust Tom. No he has no remorse for how unfair he has been.

I always wondered if he found back some of his humanity down the road, long after Fredo and Kay's betrayals.

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