He wasn't charged with loansharking. I think the loan you're thinking is the 200,000 he gave to Datello back in 1999 because the business Datello had with Sean Richard (informant and John Riggi's son in law) was having difficulty. This was right before the 2000 indictment. Government just wanted forfeiture on that amount. Doesn't matter. He has to fork over 1.4 million.

The actual count for which Crea was charged. And the MANY counts for which he was dismissed by the government -- and found NOT GUILTY of by the jury. As noted in my post ABOVE.

So, my suggestion is to learn how to decipher manipulative language in a governmental press release and the actual truth of the issue at hand.

First of all, you need to look up the word triggered. Second of all, it's poorly interpreted, and biased, propaganda with a pro-mafia and anti-government bent that plays fast and loose with the facts. Predictably, it's lapped up by the same people who think every. single. case. against a mobster is weak.

Crea was guilty. He will spend the rest of his life in prison. And people like NYMafia and Jeff Lowman will continue to whine about it and fail to interpret simple data forever more. The end.

What I would like to know is who is so triggered by a career criminal going to prison that they would come out of the woodwork and start disseminating propaganda like this out of nowhere?

A family member? The dedication to what they're doing suggests possibly someone on a retainer.

So MOE TILDEN

Why don't you explain to this forum why exactly you're in a forum dedicated to the topic of organized crime for which you are so offended and have such a hatred for? I mean it's not like you're a sometime observer. You are on here every day....stalking those same "career criminals" and their family members you hate so much so that you can expand your very vast photo gallery. Or contribute gossip in some way like a ---- kitchen bitch (new favorite word.)

I seriously don't get it. So, maybe you can enlighten us to your way of thinking.

Moe Tilden sounds like a person who works for the government. And exactly. Why are you on here? This is a mafia forum. Not a FBI or CIA forum.

Well said Yonkers, and an astute observation by you IMO.

I suspect you are probably right about Moe working for the government. Either that or he's a frustrated "Junior G-Man". Either way I do respect view points on both sides of the issues typically discussed here.

But...and this is a big "but", when you see a poster that is almost maniacal in their defense of the government (or any subject for that matter), and gets downright nasty against those who they view as "supporting" or defending wiseguys, and they then denigrate both the poster and the subject at hand, then something is usually very wrong.

As you clearly noted, GBB is a site and discussion forum dedicated to organized crime, and the Italian mafia in particular. If a poster has that much hatred for "The Life", the mafia, or wiseguys in general, why in the heck would they devote so much time visiting this forum daily, reading as many stories as they can get their hands on, gathering photos and data, etc??

I would think they would be turned "off" to ALL things mafia as well as discussions related to same, no??

Take me for instance. I enjoy reading about "The Life", gaining more knowledge than I already have, discussing with my contemporaries various viewpoints, checking out unique photos of mafia members I enjoy following, etc. It was also the main catalyst for me and Lisa to create "Button Guys of the New York Mafia" website and the litany of stories I write for the site. Clearly any reader can tell of my interest and dedication to the subject matter at hand. I only hope that I do justice to the subject matter I choose to write about. To give a full and accurate historical account.

I also readily admit that I "am" a fan of several "old timers' such as a Frank Costello, Tommy Lucchese, among many others that I think were near geniuses and lived very interesting lives. I truly believe that many (not all, but many) of these mafiosi could, and would have made it big in the "legitimate world" if they'd grown up in a different era and not into poverty, which encouraged them to go into "crime" so to speak in order to elevate their lives and their family brood.

So I for one, am a "fan" for lack of a better word. I don't consider myself a "mob groupie", but rather view myself as a "Mob Historian". I truly enjoy researching and then putting my research into what I believe is a proper context.

I would think a "Moe Tilden", if not a researcher per se, was also a "fan" of sorts of OC. Almost like a collector of baseball cards or a keeper of "batting stats" etc of the players. But if he absolutely HATED baseball and its players, why in the heck would he follow it so intently?

It almost defies logic in a sense. No?
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PS: Anyway, the only reason why I responded to this discussion was because several days back Moe got very nasty and personal with my partner about her viewpoint on Steve Crea's case. I just felt regardless of his personal opinion and position on Crea, there was no reason to stoop to name calling and insults. And I later posted a message to him regarding that.

At the end of the day we are all just "posters' here and wanna be entertained and have some fun. Am I correct? These discussions don't pay anyones mortgage or electricity bill, and no one is attacking one's family, etc. So I just ask that all of us try and conduct ourselves (me included), in a nice way towards one another. It will certainly make for a better experience of GBB for all.

We can "agree to disagree" on subjects that we don't see eye to eye on. It is the gentlemanly, and civil thing to do.

Moe is definitely not somebody who works for the government. I doubt they'd hire him. He's been banned from this place many times for acting childishly. Just ignore the guy. He's got some sort of psychological issue.

LOL... that puts things in perfect 20/20 vision. Thank you for that Ralphie. We will take your advise, and just ignore the guy. He obviously is a little "off" his rocker

I'm seeing two points of view here that have validity and I think both sides would be wise to understand where the other comes from.

I think all Moe is trying to say is not to be cast under any false illusions of Hollywood dramatization of Mafia life. Fundamentally, these are not good people. What makes the Mafia fascinating to many including myself is that you have a criminal group of people who are committed to operating outside of the law. They devote their lives to flouting authority, yet they ascribe to a rigid paramilitary structure within their own ranks. It makes for an interesting dichotomy, and over the years there have been examples of both the "Men of Honor" to borrow Joe Bonanno's term for it, but let us not forget that there have been plenty of other examples of guys devoid of any redeeming moral character whatsoever. Most may well be somewhere between those two on the spectrum.

Further to Moe's point, and as I mentioned in the thread lamenting the passing of Frank Cullotta - let's not forget these are bad guys. If you were the one being shaken down for a third of your store's revenue in pizzo, you wouldn't be happily handing over your hard earned profits because of how cool these mob guys are. If your son or daughter were lost to heroin imported and distributed by Matthew Madonna you wouldn't be defending these guys. They have victimized tens of thousands of people in the past century.

There's plenty of middle ground. There are the guys who "victimized" and even brutalized people that deserved it, or at least who knew the risks and rolled the dice (perhaps literally). But there are the innocent as well; honest people who did their best and found themselves extorted or otherwise taken advantage of.

I'm like you, NYMafia - I love the history of the Mob and I'm fascinated by the many dichotomies it presents. It speaks to so many things - brotherhood, parallel government, honour, greed, and the list goes on. That's what makes it interesting and why five decades after the Godfather we still eat up Mafia themed movies and TV shows, even as the real-life power of the Mafia has significantly diminished.

I also love WWII history and have read just about anything I could get my hands on about Hitler -- that does not make me a Nazi. Likewise, I love mob history (and current events) but that doesn't make me a mob sympathizer. Though I admit, without reservation, that to does fascinate me.

I think maybe what people are taking offence to in Moe's stand is that he might say some of this with a certain moral high-handedness when the reality is he's just like the rest of us - each fascinated in our own way by the legend, fact and fiction of the Mafia. But I must agree with his underlying point here: most of these guys are not deserving of hero-worship. Save that for the veterans and first responders and the people who show true courage every day.

To make it clear - this is the other half of The New York Mafia - the only person I hero worship is my grandfather who was a World War II veteran.

However, what's being missed here in this conversation is the fact that we have a justice system in this country that is supposed to follow the rules of law which in many cases for many, many people aside from just people associated with organized crime is out of whack and not working the way it is supposed to work. You cannot convict someone based on the view that "they have victimized tens of thousands of people in the past century."

If a person is accused of whatever crime then that is the crime for which they are to face in a court of law. Not crimes that may or may have not been committed in the past. And this is with everyone.

So, my stance on this is a balanced, fair and impartial judicial process for everyone and for people to stick to the facts and not rumors and misinformation and gossip.

And just to reiterate the fact that because someone takes that stance and the person they are writing about happens to be someone with an OC label does not mean they are "worshipping" or "idolizing" anyone.

And to make it perfectly clear from my point of view - I don't disagree with a single word of what you said here. Of course the system is supposed to be fair and unbiased, I doubt if anyone will disagree on that.

I'm not well acquainted enough with this case in particular to comment with specifics as to whether Crea should have been charged, prosecuted, or found guilty - or not. Although if you've spent your life in service to the Lucchese family I'm sorry to say it's a predictable end for the man whether or not it was a fair one with respect to this particular charge.

FBI over-zealousness is a well known fact from the Mafia to Ruby Ridge to Waco. I'm no big fan of the government in general. Courts are not always fair. While I would agree that courts are sometimes biased in mob trials - or that prosecutors looking to make a name or get a bigger budget go after certain targets for the wrong reasons, likewise the Mafia has tampered with juries more than once over the years too. Neither side has a perfect record of commitment to "fair play" in a courtroom setting.

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Eastside, my compliments. You have evaluated the situation (and the underworld landscape) exceedingly well. For ALL the reasons you enumerated and many more, the mob holds a fascination for us like no other. I do agree there are many low-lifes in the mob. Animals and degenerates who should be burned at the stake, with NO redeeming qualities whatsoever. Stone killers who hurt people with little to no provocation. Guys who actually hoped they could hurt someone. Those type of guys are no good! And there is NO excuse or justification for them.

If you traffic in hard narcotics for years, a drug that truly destroys life and the fabric of families, you are a POS in my book. Period! If you go out of your way to extort innocent people. Or you abuse and rob innocent folk, you are a "slug".

On the other hand there are many wiseguys and racketeers who are solid people. Basically "good people" who "do some bad things" if that makes any sense to you. I come from that world, and that way of thinking, and I've seen firsthand really good people, "altruistic" as hard as it may sound to the ears, who may have been bookies, policy rackets guys, ran dice and card games, slot machines, even lent money at exorbitant rates (shylocks). But it's just what they did for a living. If you won, you got paid. If you lost, they wanted their money. If you borrowed money, full well knowing the terms they wanted, the "vig" (and had every right to expect it, because you made a handshake agreement). There were others who may have been "fences" or hijacked trucks (they saw it as taking from big business and the insurance companies who rob us daily). etc etc. Not to moralize it, but to just explain it... That was their way of life.

Yet, they raised families and kids who graduated college and became doctors, lawyers, and captains of industry. Mafiosi who instilled the highest morals and integrity into their children. They didn't want this life for their kids. They may have been who they were, and did what they did, but knew to want better for the next generation.

Street guys would help a neighbor at the drop of a hat, or support your family if you went broke. I've seen wiseguys actually dig into their own pockets for thousands to feed a guys family (not fellow mob guys, but just neighborhood people), or pay his rent. (And refuse to accept payment back when the guy got on his feet - no strings attached).

I've seen wiseguys drop what they were doing, and run out asap to give some bum a beating because he insulted a friends daughter or wife, cheated or otherwise abused a legitimate friend, or his family.

I've known many guys who attended church regularly, ran successful businesses that gave to their community (not drained the area as they are always suspected of doing). Wiseguys who actually were loved by their community for all the help they provided to average folk over the years.... they may have been "hoodlums" and "mafiosi", but
their neighborhood considered them "OUR" mafiosi, and actually tied to protect them from harm.

Ran restaurants with delicious, top quality food and drink, operated dry cleaners, laundromats, trucking firms, etc etc. Ran them well, and were highly valued businesses in their respective areas.
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So the sword cuts both ways.
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And not to speak for my partner because she can well defend herself, but all I really think she longs to do is explain to the public about how many times (in fact more often than not), Italian defendants who get painted with the "mafia paint brush", don't get treated fairly by the judicial system. OUR laws on the books are to be fairly and evenly implemented if ALL Americans are to get a fair trial. Yet there have been (and continue to be), way too many cases where the prosecution (and the FBI) play fast and loose with the laws because the feel nobody cares about a mafia guy. And they can skirt law doctrine and "cheat" if you will to earn a conviction.

***Remember this. A very important point. When a prosecutor wins a so-called "Mafia" case, it is a major career booster for him and the agents involved. Its how they get recognition and reach a higher career post.

That same prosecutor could win 20 "non-mafia" cases, that are just run-of-the-mill cases, and they earn "ugotz!"

So there is a huge incentive here to WIN, WIN, WIN, at any cost. Organized crime related cases anyway. If they convict "Vito the Wolf", they win brownie points. If they convict "Leroy", they win zip!!
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But having said that, I agree that I do think that the way forum members convey their feelings regardless of their views has a lot to do with pushback and arguments. "Its always nice to be nice." There is a way to convey your feelings without denigrating others.

In closing, Eastside, let me again compliment your oratory skills and writing style because I think you explained it well. I just wanted to give insight to "the other side". After all, I am "The Other Guy" LOL

PS: I more thing you said was "there's a lot of middle ground" in this conversation. BINGO!! Great statement and oh so true. There is good and bad in everything, in every faze of our lives. Mob guys are no different. They cry, bleed, and love their kids and pets as do we all. Many of em just work "outside" some of the laws that are on the books. Thats all!

Man you are so right. You really have to be around it to understand though. It was just a way of life for a lot of people. Especially the older guys who are long dead some of the guys who were mainly doing shit like making book could be the nicest most solid guys you’d ever meet. A bunch of them never took a serious pinch and the shit they were doing is now legal and the government gets a piece. Payday loans? Plus there used to actually be thousands of wiseguys around. Everybody knew who they were. And most were very well liked.

In my view, there are rackets, and there are rackets. "Vice" type rackets; gambling, borrowing money, pornography (NOT child porn of course), after hours clubs, etc., are no big thing. Hell, most of em are legal nowadays anyway so how bad could they have been to begin with??

SOOO many poor guys went to the can for shit that the government now "deems" legal. Why?? Because they now control it and reap ALL the profits, or heavily "tax" the industry which is really nothing more than what the mob did with a "Mob tax" or shakedown of gambling operators, etc., in their perceived territory. But before it was legalized these "businesses" were labeled "rackets"by the government, and the "businessmen and operators" were then labeled "racketeers' and "gangsters".

Basically the Government is usually full of shit in regards to things like this...... What's that old adage? "DO AS WE SAY, BUT DON'T DO AS WE DO"

That saying perfectly applies to what the government does to its populous. And I love this country, but that doesn't change what the truth is.

Anyway, as you said Southshorekid, when you have the opportunity to grow up with guys in "the life", go to school with them, hang with them, or maybe even have members of your family in that life as I did, your viewpoint becomes different because you really get to know the "person", not just the reputation or what the newspapers have to say about them. Which is usually sensationalized anyway to sell papers.

NYMafia, it's difficult to tell where "they" stop and "you" start. I have two things:

1. Agree on your assessment of the district attorney racket and this should be taught in school. It's all about the kill ratio. I don't mean everyone is innocent, but some of the worst human beings alive are district attorneys. DA is a career path, nothing more and nothing less. Win at all costs, lie, cheat, steal, withhold...hey kinda sounds like the mafia!

2. Your whole assessment in that last long post above is laughable. It's a twisted and perverted version of street justice that is completely deluded by bullshit reasoning and an absolute inability to be honest about crime.

If you Rob a food truck, and that truck company loses money and therefore has to raise prices to cover it, that means the neighborhood store is going to pay more and then charge more. Leeches on an entire community, the one the thief pretends he sticks up for.

Further, I worked with a fella I really liked. But his boss let him get away with being fucked up on legal meds and sneaking alcohol and getting out of his mind to the point of being comatose on a nightly basis.

He had a dui that damaged private property. He could have killed someone at work because he drove a truck sometimes. If he did have a bad accident the whole department probably would have been outsourced and he would have cost a LOT of people their livelihoods. The boss was a psychopath who would have loved to see that happen.

At the end of the day I had to say to myself, I like this guy but he is NOT a good person. He's a bad person. And if he did hurt someone, he has no means to pay anything. So at the end of the day I can say I like this guy. But what I can't say is that he's a good person. It's just not true.

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Hi Alice, first of all I didn't understand your first statement about where "they" stop and "you" start". What did you mean by that? Who's they?

Second of all my viewpoints are not "perverted and twisted". And it is not bullshit reasoning. If you have ever lived within the Five Boros of NYC, Boston, Providence, Philly, or another major city that houses a Family, then you would fully understand what I am speaking of.

If you live in a rural area such a Butte, Montana, Charlotte, NC, or another area that has never had exposure to this phenomena then you would not understand (and clearly you do not). Especially if you've never had interaction with a wiseguy or knock around guy in your lifetime.

Similarly, if you have lived in one of these type areas and did have an interaction with a guy, but it was a bad interaction because you made a bet or something, and then tried to stiff him for the money you may have lost and gotten a slap in the face for it, you also might talk the way you are.

But if you have grown up in a neighborhood with a litany of street guys, and have experienced "real" every day normal encounters and bantering and developed friendships with a few, you would understand my position.... you have to "know the beast or subject matter well" to be able to truly "talk shop" so to speak. Otherwise its "long-distance telephone evaluations" instead of onsight experiences.
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Your second post and analogy about "the guy on the meds being out of his mind and having an accident" I do think is a very poor analogy or comparison to what we are chatting about. It has little reverence to reality to this particular subject. A dope fiend and drunk is NOT a solid or valid comparison to a bookmaker who accepts a bet on a horse or sport, or a guy who takes numbers bets. Guys who essentially are conducting a business that nearly every state in the union has now also legalized and is doing.

And if you do think that your analogy is on target, then I suggest that maybe its you who has the "twisted and perverted" viewpoint and not I.

PS: one last thing. As far as District Attorney's go, (I agree and disagree with you on that one), I do NOT feel that they are some of the "worst human being alive" as you said. Only that some of them (FBI agents also) will bend and skirt the law for their own purposes, breaking the very laws they claim to be upholding. Some are pieces of garbage, but some are fair and impartial. It is the same with wiseguys, and in ALL facets of life. Good and Bad in everything. You cannot paint a wide brush across all because that is not realistic to life.

In closing, let me say it was nice chatting you, and although we may differ in views, I do respect your right to think the way you do.

Some of you are taking the enjoyment and entertainment out of coming here. Getting to be too personal and drama filled. Doesn't mean I'll stop coming here and commenting, just saying.

I'd like to publicly apologize. La Cosa Nostra is a fine organization made up of only the finest people. Every community in the United States, large and small, deserves a branch of it's own.

LOL.... you're a funny guy. I mean like Ha! Ha! funny.

Your response was a bit extreme, but whatever gets you through the night I guess.

We all see things a bit differently, and thats ok. God bless!