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If Vito had died? #983386
12/25/19 04:15 PM
12/25/19 04:15 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
After Vito was shot, Tom urged Sonny to make a deal with Solozzo. Here's the relevant dialog:

SONNY: Well, Tom -- you're consiglieri, now what do we do if the old man dies, God forbid.
TOM: If we lose the old man we lose our political contacts and half our strength. The other New York Families might wind up supporting Sollozzo just to avoid a long -- destructive war. This is almost 1946 --
-- nobody wants bloodshed anymore. If your father dies, (then) you make the deal, Sonny.

Do you think Sonny would have made the deal if Vito had died?


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983394
12/25/19 08:22 PM
12/25/19 08:22 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
It's a challenge to believe that Sonny would have overcome his congenital instincts to pursue an intelligent course of action. However, he did do so when he told Sollozzo that he would wait.

The preponderance of advise from Tom, Clemenza, et al would have been to make the deal. They would have pointed out that Sollozzo wasn't going anywhere and he could be dealt with eventually. So, I think that Sonny would have been persuaded to make the deal. However, I don't know how Michael would have reacted.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983610
12/29/19 10:36 AM
12/29/19 10:36 AM
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
waynethegame Offline
Capo
waynethegame  Offline
Capo
Joined: Nov 2003
Posts: 385
Tampa, FL
I think he would have, but constantly try to get Sollozzo afterward. Like he would constantly be operating behind the scenes to try and get revenge while pretending to have forgiven. Which would have caused more issues with the Five Families if he succeeded.


Wayne

"Finance is a gun. Politics is knowing when to pull the trigger."
Don Lucchesi
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: waynethegame] #983661
12/29/19 10:51 PM
12/29/19 10:51 PM
Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
pizzaboy Offline
The Fuckin Doctor
pizzaboy  Offline
The Fuckin Doctor

Joined: Dec 2006
Posts: 23,296
Throggs Neck
I think Sonny would have made the deal and then killed Sol anyway. If the Barzinis were getting rich off drugs with the Corleones he might have been considered collateral damage not worth going to war for.


"I got news for you. If it wasn't for the toilet, there would be no books." --- George Costanza.
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: waynethegame] #983664
12/29/19 11:03 PM
12/29/19 11:03 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
I don't think Sonny would have made the deal for several reasons. First, as Oli noted, was his temperament. Second, he realized (per the novel) that when he shot his mouth off at the meeting, he exposed his greed and unintentionally encouraged Sol's attempt on Vito's life. Vito already knew that Tom and Sonny were for the drugs deal. I believe the reason he had Sonny, Tom, Fredo,Tess and Clem present at the meeting was because he wanted everyone to hear that his "no" was final--and wanted Sol to see that everyone heard that final "no" to keep him from trying an end-run around Vito. But, Sonny's outburst became (in Puzo's words), the c***k in the Don's armor." Sonny may have believed that if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived as benefiting from Vito's death by becoming Don and getting rich from drugs.

Tom's advice was rational, realistic, conciliatory, peaceable--the work of the lawyer that he was. But, he wasn't a Sicilian or a Mafioso. If he were, he would have seen that, if Sonny agreed to the drugs deal, he would have fatally weakened the Corleones by allowing an outsider--not even a made man in the US Mafia--get away with killing the great Vito Corleone. Sonny wouldn't have been the Don that Vito was. But, he was a feared figure in the Mob world, and (again as the novel points out), a superb street general. Fear counts for a lot in the Mob world--that's why Michael never gave anybody a pass, not even his own brother. If Sonny followed Tom's advice, he'd be giving Sol a pass that wouldn't escape notice by the other families, even if he eventually killed Sol.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983671
12/30/19 02:00 AM
12/30/19 02:00 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
L
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
Sol's big mistake following on not dissimilar thread

My take, for what it is worth!

Sure thing Turnbull I also "don't think Sonny would have made the deal if Vito had died" especially considering Sonny's blunder, show of greed seemed the 'Go ahead' trigger for Vito's killing [we know different!]

I believe Sollozzo and Barzini would have known “No way was he [Sonny] going to negotiate a deal with Sollozzo” with or without Sonny's greed after Vito's murder

Sollozzo and Barzini were banking on Vito's death, then canvassing the Judges and Politicians who were in Vito's pocket - Vito dead and Barzini offering them a lot more money

If my memory serves me right, Clemenza and Tessio were non-committal when Tom was telling Sonny to make the deal
It undoubtedly would have looked bad for Sonny "if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived" that Sonny wanted Vito out, to take over

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Lana] #983685
12/30/19 12:31 PM
12/30/19 12:31 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Originally Posted by Lana

It undoubtedly would have looked bad for Sonny "if he'd said yes to the deal, he might have been perceived" that Sonny wanted Vito out, to take over


From the novel (the scene where Vito discusses the upcoming Sol meeting with Sonny and Tom):

The Don puffed on his cigar and said, "Santino, what do you think?"

Hagen knew what Sonny would say. Sonny was chafing at being under the Don's thumb. He wanted a big operation of his own. Something like this would be perfect.

My view is that if Tom knew Sonny was "chafing at being under the Don's thumb," then others would know it, too--Sonny being an unsubtle fellow. That's why, if he went for the deal if Vito died, he'd fall under suspicion--not only in the Family but outside, too.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983688
12/30/19 12:58 PM
12/30/19 12:58 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
Originally Posted by Turnbull


My view is that if Tom knew Sonny was "chafing at being under the Don's thumb," then others would know it, too--Sonny being an unsubtle fellow. That's why, if he went for the deal if Vito died, he'd fall under suspicion--not only in the Family but outside, too.


On the other hand, in front of the family's primary protagonists, Tom told Sonny to make the deal.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: olivant] #983699
12/30/19 03:50 PM
12/30/19 03:50 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,485
AZ
Yes, but lawyerly advice, not Mafia consigliere advice. Also, since Tom was hot for the deal, not exactly disinterested advice.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983718
12/30/19 04:53 PM
12/30/19 04:53 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
O

Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,018
Texas
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Yes, but lawyerly advice, not Mafia consigliere advice. Also, since Tom was hot for the deal, not exactly disinterested advice.

Now wait TB. In that scene, Sonny asked Tom for his advice in Tom's capacity as Consigliere. Also, Tom advised Vito to partner with Sollozzo and he gave some very excellent reasons for that advice.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #983988
01/03/20 06:14 AM
01/03/20 06:14 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
C
Capri Offline
Capo
Capri  Offline
C
Capo
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
Well Tom you are Consigliere capacity advice

Sonny already said lot of money in that white powder Tom amplified the excellent reasons
make the deal There was no deal Killing Vito was the key
wait If not for Michael, Vito dead

If Sonny had acted on Consigliere Tom's advice, there won't be one place they can hang their hat!

He is a good lawyer not Mafia consigliere

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Capri] #984043
01/03/20 10:07 PM
01/03/20 10:07 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
E
Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
E
Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
Good points Capri No doubt He is a good lawyer but no Mafia consigliere

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #984144
01/05/20 02:23 AM
01/05/20 02:23 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
L
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Hagen knew what Sonny would say. Sonny was chafing at being under the Don's thumb. He wanted a big operation of his own. Something like this would be perfect.

My view is that if Tom knew Sonny was "chafing at being under the Don's thumb," then others would know it, too--Sonny being an unsubtle fellow. That's why, if he went for the deal if Vito died, he'd fall under suspicion--not only in the Family but outside, too.
I acknowledge this is from the novel...Then, surely Vito would have known it too yet Vito continued to keep Sonny “under the Don's thumb”

Vito was instrumental, contributed, caused the misery of every one of his children, to their gloom and doom indeed

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Turnbull] #984221
01/06/20 11:21 PM
01/06/20 11:21 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
E
Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
Vito was all business Carmela is the one who kept the family together

He only acted on Sonny's infidelity when his blunder affected business Never mind his wife's feelings of hurt, him cheating on her

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: Evita] #984239
01/07/20 10:50 AM
01/07/20 10:50 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline
Underboss
The Last Woltz  Offline
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
Originally Posted by Evita
Vito was all business Carmela is the one who kept the family together

He only acted on Sonny's infidelity when his blunder affected business Never mind his wife's feelings of hurt, him cheating on her


True, but there's no indication that Carmela cared about Sonny's infidelity either.

After all, she is the one who told Sonny "don't interfere" when he yelled at Carlo for telling Connie to shut up.


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: If Vito had died? [Re: The Last Woltz] #984273
01/08/20 02:55 AM
01/08/20 02:55 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
L
Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
Carmela teased Fredo saying "You don't belong to me You were left on the doorstep by Gypsies”

Poor Fredo copped it from everyone – Vito, Carmela, Sonny, Michael, Greene
No wonder Fredo lapped up all the attention, sympathy and Superman Club visits! from Roth / Ola

Re: If Vito had died? [Re: The Last Woltz] #984513
01/12/20 11:41 PM
01/12/20 11:41 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
E
Evita Offline
Underboss
Evita  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 553
Originally Posted by The Last Woltz
Originally Posted by Evita
Vito was all business Carmela is the one who kept the family together

He only acted on Sonny's infidelity when his blunder affected business Never mind his wife's feelings of hurt, him cheating on her


True, but there's no indication that Carmela cared about Sonny's infidelity either.

After all, she is the one who told Sonny "don't interfere" when he yelled at Carlo for telling Connie to shut up.

True Woltz but when Vito did, it was only when his blunder affected business not because of family values


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