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Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: BensonHURST] #954111
09/26/18 11:53 AM
09/26/18 11:53 AM
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Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I was on Peter Edwards website and he has to have it looks 4 books on Canada LCN there has to he at least 6-7 books out there.

Anyone read any of them?

Some of the answers as to historic structure could be answered.

I think that's the only way we are going to get answers?

Nikel, just a though what about a FOIA request on he Violi bros?



In the book or Blood authored by Peter Edward & Antonio Nicasso. pages 104-105.

"Papalia was named as a key Canadian under the wing of the Buffalo mob."

"Less than two months after Pop's (Paplia) murder on May 31,1997. his lieutenant Carmen Barillaro was shot dead at his Niagara Falls, Ontario. Ken Murdock was again the shooter. Neither killing was directly traced to Vito,although his shadow fell over both crimes."

"In the late 90's, Vito was seeking to cut links to the American La Cosa Nostra and create a Canadian based Mafia that was no longer an appendix of the US organization. On October 22,1997, four months after the Papalia murder, Vito met with fifteen men he considered loyalist in a Woodbridge Ontario restaurant, Musitano including Murdock's one time boss , Pasquale Musitano of Hamilton. Also there was Gaetano Panepinto of Toronto.
Musitano and his brother Angelo were originally charged with two counts each of murder for arranging the Papalia and Barillaro hits.Eventually they pled guilty to one count each of murder conspiracy for Barillaro's death. Vito Rizzuto's name was left out of the court proceedings."

"The removal from the scene of Papalia,Barillaro and Mora certainly helped Vito create more space for his own independent crime family in Canada
free from the stumbling Bonnano family of New York. While politicians in Quebec were talking about separation , Vito was making his own version,except he wanted to take Ontario with him. "

"Murdock later told the Toronto Star that he was instructed by senior members of the Musitano crime family to pull the trigger on half dozen others, almost all of whom were key members of the Ontario Ndrangheta. Most were blood relatives and in laws of Paolo Violi: Jimmy Luppino and Paolo Violi two sons, four other family members and in laws of the late Giacomo Luppino."





Last edited by Ciment; 09/26/18 05:56 PM.
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: NickyfromTampa] #954112
09/26/18 12:00 PM
09/26/18 12:00 PM
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Stubbs Offline
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Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Stubbs and Nickle.

I don't mean any disrespect, but the "members and associates" of the Todaro crime family were not in the NYC area. They were in Canada. That's okay, we all make mistakes. Here is the official quote from the Justice Department.

"In a coordinated operation, Canadian law enforcement authorities today arrested nine organized crime members and associates in Canada, including members of the Todaro organized crime family, who are charged with, among other crimes, narcotics trafficking."


Sorry if I didn't explain myself well. What I meant was: The FBI claimed in that bust they arrested "members and associates of the Todaro" family, but in their press release they only mention members from the Gambinos and Bonannos from NYC. So if they really arrested people under the Todaros, who were they and why weren't their names released in their official FBI press release? I find that curious.


"It wasn't very good parsley to begin with, and then the cat went and peed on it." -Sicilian proverb
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954116
09/26/18 12:24 PM
09/26/18 12:24 PM
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Giacomo Luppino's wife is named Domenica Todaro.
Does anyone here know which part of Italy the old man Todaro of Buffalo came from ?
I just would like to know if there is any relationship between the two.

Last edited by Ciment; 09/26/18 12:25 PM.
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Ciment] #954128
09/26/18 02:31 PM
09/26/18 02:31 PM
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Originally Posted by Ciment
Giacomo Luppino's wife is named Domenica Todaro.
Does anyone here know which part of Italy the old man Todaro of Buffalo came from ?
I just would like to know if there is any relationship between the two.


Other posters stated Sicily.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Sonny_Black] #954131
09/26/18 02:35 PM
09/26/18 02:35 PM
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NickleCity Offline
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At La Nova they rotate pictures of family and their is a set where they are visiting where they are from in Sicily.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954136
09/26/18 02:50 PM
09/26/18 02:50 PM
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If anyone knows the name of Joe Todaro Sr.'s parents, his ancestry may be easier to determine. I've never had any luck when trying to find out where his parents were from.

Josephine D. Todaro, who is Todaro Sr.'s wife, had the maiden name Santamauro. Some time ago I found what I believe is her father's World War I Registration Card -- go to https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-916P-97JH. Rosario Santamauro was born in Ventimiglia di Sicilia, in the province of Palermo.

Giacomo Luppino was born in Castellace di Oppido Mamertina, in the province of Reggio Calabria. I suspect his wife, Domenica (née Todaro), was born in Castellace too.

Last edited by antimafia; 09/26/18 07:38 PM. Reason: Changed "Santomauro" to the correct spelling: _Santamauro_.
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: antimafia] #954144
09/26/18 04:06 PM
09/26/18 04:06 PM
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Originally Posted by antimafia
[snip]

One theory about the murder of Albert Iavarone was that the killing was revenge for the murder of Angelo Musitano. I think Iavarone belonged to a group that consisted of criminal associates who were not made--but even if this opinion is right, who knows whether this group in turn is tied to an actual mafia group whose leader ordered Musitano's murder?

There have been many theories as to why Musitano was killed, not just the few that are reported in newspaper articles. Here's the list I've been compiling since his murder (in no order of which theory I favour):

1. Revenge for plotting the murders of John Papalia and Carm Barillaro (mobwatchers neglect to mention the latter's death).

2. A newer 'ndrangheta cell from Italy that, at some point before Angelo Musitano's murder last year, seems to have established itself in Hamilton in order to possibly wrest drug territory from the Musitano crime group. (James Dubro's theory)

3. Mostly Calabrian organized-crime groups, including the Siderno Group, violently fighting over profits and territory in the medical-marijuana industry in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) or the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). The 'ndrine in the Siderno Group could be fighting with one another--Carmine Verduci's murder might be an example of this.

4. The same type of jockeying for control of cocaine trafficking--in particular as a result of the aforementioned 'ndrangheta cell from Italy that could be encroaching on the Musitanos' territory.

5. A pre-emptive strike by hitman Ken Murdock, hired by the Musitanos to kill both Papalia and Barillaro and successful in his attempts, who might have been worried after his release about retribution by the Musitano brothers.

6. A joint effort by the Wolf Pack and Rizzuto loyalists in Montreal to push their way into the Niagara Region, having already possibly made an incursion into the GTA.

7. An all-out war, over a number of rackets in southwestern Ontario, involving 'mostly ndrangheta groups and/or Calabrian-Canadian crime groups, with the 'ndrangheta internal war in the GTA somehow spilling over into the Hamilton area.

8. Rivalry between the Musitano crime group and the Luppino-Violi group, which might have intensified after Domenico and Giuseppe Violi were sentenced and imprisoned.

9. A kill-or-be-killed scenario in which the Iavarone group decided it had to kill Angelo Musitano because a member of the group owed Angelo a large gambling debt and was being squeezed by Angelo for a stake in the group's gambling activities. (A still very credible theory as to why Pat and Angelo Musitano arranged to have Papalia killed is the large gambling debt Pat owed Johnny.)


I'm going to add one more theory as to why Angelo Musitano was killed, although with all the information we now have, I doubt this additional theory could be true.

10. Remo Commisso wanted both Angelo and Pat killed.

Go to private investigator Derrick Snowdy's tweet at https://twitter.com/jdsnowdy/status/989681899705720833. In case you can't see the tweet and the photo, see below.

Derrick Snowdy
@jdsnowdy

With respect to the #Ruthowsky conviction I’m reminded that Hamilton Police source debriefing reports show they knew people were targeted for murder. Did corruption keep it hushed up? Thousands of pages of these debriefing reports.

9:45 PM - 26 Apr 2018

[Linked Image]

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: antimafia] #954150
09/26/18 04:30 PM
09/26/18 04:30 PM
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Originally Posted by antimafia
If anyone knows the name of Joe Todaro Sr.'s parents, his ancestry may be easier to determine. I've never had any luck when trying to find out where his parents were from.

Josephine D. Todaro, who is Todaro Sr.'s wife, had the maiden name Santomauro. Some time ago I found what I believe is her father's World War I Registration Card -- go to https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/3:1:33S7-916P-97JH. Rosario Santomauro was born in Ventimiglia di Sicilia, in the province of Palermo.

Giacomo Luppino was born in Castellace di Oppido Mamertina, in the province of Reggio Calabria. I suspect his wife, Domenica (née Todaro), was born in Castellace too.


Thanks !

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: antimafia] #954152
09/26/18 04:42 PM
09/26/18 04:42 PM
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Originally Posted by antimafia
Originally Posted by antimafia
[snip]

One theory about the murder of Albert Iavarone was that the killing was revenge for the murder of Angelo Musitano. I think Iavarone belonged to a group that consisted of criminal associates who were not made--but even if this opinion is right, who knows whether this group in turn is tied to an actual mafia group whose leader ordered Musitano's murder?

There have been many theories as to why Musitano was killed, not just the few that are reported in newspaper articles. Here's the list I've been compiling since his murder (in no order of which theory I favour):

1. Revenge for plotting the murders of John Papalia and Carm Barillaro (mobwatchers neglect to mention the latter's death).

2. A newer 'ndrangheta cell from Italy that, at some point before Angelo Musitano's murder last year, seems to have established itself in Hamilton in order to possibly wrest drug territory from the Musitano crime group. (James Dubro's theory)

3. Mostly Calabrian organized-crime groups, including the Siderno Group, violently fighting over profits and territory in the medical-marijuana industry in the Greater Toronto Area (GTA) or the Greater Toronto and Hamilton Area (GTHA). The 'ndrine in the Siderno Group could be fighting with one another--Carmine Verduci's murder might be an example of this.

4. The same type of jockeying for control of cocaine trafficking--in particular as a result of the aforementioned 'ndrangheta cell from Italy that could be encroaching on the Musitanos' territory.

5. A pre-emptive strike by hitman Ken Murdock, hired by the Musitanos to kill both Papalia and Barillaro and successful in his attempts, who might have been worried after his release about retribution by the Musitano brothers.

6. A joint effort by the Wolf Pack and Rizzuto loyalists in Montreal to push their way into the Niagara Region, having already possibly made an incursion into the GTA.

7. An all-out war, over a number of rackets in southwestern Ontario, involving 'mostly ndrangheta groups and/or Calabrian-Canadian crime groups, with the 'ndrangheta internal war in the GTA somehow spilling over into the Hamilton area.

8. Rivalry between the Musitano crime group and the Luppino-Violi group, which might have intensified after Domenico and Giuseppe Violi were sentenced and imprisoned.

9. A kill-or-be-killed scenario in which the Iavarone group decided it had to kill Angelo Musitano because a member of the group owed Angelo a large gambling debt and was being squeezed by Angelo for a stake in the group's gambling activities. (A still very credible theory as to why Pat and Angelo Musitano arranged to have Papalia killed is the large gambling debt Pat owed Johnny.)


I'm going to add one more theory as to why Angelo Musitano was killed, although with all the information we now have, I doubt this additional theory could be true.

10. Remo Commisso wanted both Angelo and Pat killed.

Go to private investigator Derrick Snowdy's tweet at https://twitter.com/jdsnowdy/status/989681899705720833. In case you can't see the tweet and the photo, see below.

Derrick Snowdy
@jdsnowdy

With respect to the #Ruthowsky conviction I’m reminded that Hamilton Police source debriefing reports show they knew people were targeted for murder. Did corruption keep it hushed up? Thousands of pages of these debriefing reports.

9:45 PM - 26 Apr 2018

[Linked Image]


So apparantly the Musitanos had a reason for revenge against Papalia, who ordered the beating of his own godson. When did this happen?


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Sonny_Black] #954153
09/26/18 04:49 PM
09/26/18 04:49 PM
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Originally Posted by Sonny_Black
Originally Posted by Ciment
Giacomo Luppino's wife is named Domenica Todaro.
Does anyone here know which part of Italy the old man Todaro of Buffalo came from ?
I just would like to know if there is any relationship between the two.


Other posters stated Sicily.


Thanks

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Ciment] #954157
09/26/18 05:52 PM
09/26/18 05:52 PM
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Larry's Bar
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Originally Posted by Ciment
Giacomo Luppino's wife is named Domenica Todaro.
Does anyone here know which part of Italy the old man Todaro of Buffalo came from ?
I just would like to know if there is any relationship between the two.


Joe Todaro Sr father was Antonio, and his uncle was Salvatore Todaro. Salvatore "Black Sam" Todaro of Cleveland was a cousin of theirs. They are from Sicily. No relation to Domenica Todaro.

Papalia stepped on a lot of people's toes.


"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954158
09/26/18 06:04 PM
09/26/18 06:04 PM
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^^^^
Is the first Salvatore Todaro the uncle of Joe Todaro Sr. or of Antonio Todaro (Joe Todaro Sr.'s father)?

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Giacomo_Vacari] #954159
09/26/18 06:21 PM
09/26/18 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by Giacomo_Vacari
Originally Posted by Ciment
Giacomo Luppino's wife is named Domenica Todaro.
Does anyone here know which part of Italy the old man Todaro of Buffalo came from ?
I just would like to know if there is any relationship between the two.


Joe Todaro Sr father was Antonio, and his uncle was Salvatore Todaro. Salvatore "Black Sam" Todaro of Cleveland was a cousin of theirs. They are from Sicily. No relation to Domenica Todaro.

Papalia stepped on a lot of people's toes.


Thanks Giacomo !

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Stubbs] #954161
09/26/18 07:10 PM
09/26/18 07:10 PM
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Originally Posted by Stubbs
Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Stubbs and Nickle.

I don't mean any disrespect, but the "members and associates" of the Todaro crime family were not in the NYC area. They were in Canada. That's okay, we all make mistakes. Here is the official quote from the Justice Department.

"In a coordinated operation, Canadian law enforcement authorities today arrested nine organized crime members and associates in Canada, including members of the Todaro organized crime family, who are charged with, among other crimes, narcotics trafficking."


Sorry if I didn't explain myself well. What I meant was: The FBI claimed in that bust they arrested "members and associates of the Todaro" family, but in their press release they only mention members from the Gambinos and Bonannos from NYC. So if they really arrested people under the Todaros, who were they and why weren't their names released in their official FBI press release? I find that curious.


They didn't list any of the defendants arrested in Canada, let alone the Todaro family members and associates.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: antimafia] #954164
09/26/18 07:39 PM
09/26/18 07:39 PM
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Originally Posted by antimafia
^^^^
Is the first Salvatore Todaro the uncle of Joe Todaro Sr. or of Antonio Todaro (Joe Todaro Sr.'s father)?


Antonio and Salvatore Todaro were brothers. Salvatore "Black Sam" Todaro was a cousin of theirs.


"I have this Nightmare. I'm on 5th avenue watching the St. Patrick's Day parade and I have a coronary and nine thousand cops march happily over my body." Chief Sidney Green
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954174
09/26/18 09:17 PM
09/26/18 09:17 PM
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^^^^
I was able to find the 1940 United States Census record for Anthony Todaro. It also lists Joe Todaro Sr.'s mother, Sarah, as well as his siblings. See https://familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:K7SQ-F96. Unfortunately, I couldn't find immigration/travel records for either Anthony or Sarah, who according to the census were both born in Italy. I'm curious why Sarah's name was anglicized from, I presume, Sara--all of her and Anthony's children listed in the census do not have Italian first names except for the youngest, Salvatore.

FamilySearch isn't going to cut it, unless I can find an immigration/travel record for either of the two Salvatore Todaros.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954175
09/26/18 10:21 PM
09/26/18 10:21 PM
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NickleCity Offline
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It appears Salvatore Todaro from Cleveland had another cousin in Buffalo named “busy” Joe Patitucci — don’t know if this will help track down more information on Antonio Todaro.

Quote
Born July 4, 1893, in Licata, Sicily, Patitucci entered the U.S. through Ellis Island just before his seventeenth birthday.[ 457] Busy Joe’s family grew influential in the American underworld. A cousin, Salvatore “Sam” Todaro became an important figure in the Mafia of Cleveland, initially partnering with the Lonardo brothers in Prohibition Era rackets[ 458]
From DiCarlo: Buffalo’s First Family of Crime vol. 1


Last edited by NickleCity; 09/26/18 10:25 PM. Reason: Spelling of name, added from Cleveland
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Stubbs] #954223
09/27/18 05:02 PM
09/27/18 05:02 PM
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Originally Posted by Stubbs
The other thing that's interesting, the FBI mentioned that the case with the Bonannos included members of the Todaro Family:

Quote
In a coordinated operation, Canadian law enforcement authorities today arrested nine organized crime members and associates in Canada, including members of the Todaro organized crime family, who are charged with, among other crimes, narcotics trafficking.


What's interesting is in the same FBI press release that contains the above quote, all of the defendants listed are all in the NYC area. So, who are the members and associates of the Todaro family that were arrested? Wouldn't there be a list of their names somewhere if they were arrested and formally charged with a crime?

Sorry if I missed it earlier, but I can't seem to find who the Todaro family members are who were arrested anywhere.


The Todaro family members would have to be someone on this list from the RCMP: RCMP GTA CFSEU and its policing partners land a tremendous blow to organized crime in Canada
The following subjects have been charged with the following offences:

DOMENICO PAOLO VIOLI, of Hamilton
DIMITAR DIMITROV of Stoney Creek
ADRIANO VALENTINO SCOLIERI of Richmond Hill
BERNARDO LUKE ROTOLO of Woodbridge
TRAN GIANG TANG of Markham
KAM TIM TONG of Markham
Nicholas VALENTINE of Vaughan
ANTHONY JAMES ARROYO of Waterloo
JAMES LINCOLN JABLONSKI of Mississauga
A CANADA WIDE WARRANT HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR THE ARREST OF GIUSEPPE VIOLI of HAMILTON
A CANADA WIDE WARRANT HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR THE ARREST OF MASSIMIGLIANO CARFAGNA of BURLINGTON
YIN YUN LEONG OF MARKHAM
A CANADA WIDE WARRANT HAS BEEN ISSUED FOR THE ARREST OF WITTON LUU OF TORONTO, ON
A Canada wide warrant is being sought for the arrest of WOJCIECH GRZESIOWKI of Innisfil

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954242
09/28/18 02:10 AM
09/28/18 02:10 AM
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Bensonhurst, Brooklyn, NYC
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The Violio's never had aby ties d's zto the Bonnano's?
Correct?

Technically the Bonnano's killed their father and uncles and as learned from on here

The Rizzutto/Bonnano's were trying to kill the sons and cousins

I guess that's where LUPPINO came in and was protecting them under one Buffalo banner.

If I have the story correct?

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: BensonHURST] #954250
09/28/18 06:20 AM
09/28/18 06:20 AM
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Originally Posted by BensonHURST
The Violio's never had aby ties d's zto the Bonnano's?
Correct?

Technically the Bonnano's killed their father and uncles and as learned from on here

The Rizzutto/Bonnano's were trying to kill the sons and cousins

I guess that's where LUPPINO came in and was protecting them under one Buffalo banner.

If I have the story correct?




The Violis have plenty of ties to the Bonanno crime family in that the investigation to them by the RCMP and the investigation into the Bonannos in Canada by Vincenzo Morena were parallel investigations that were linked and intertwined.
Also, I think it was deduced that the Violis attended the Morena induction ceremony. Nickle, correct me if I'm wrong.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954251
09/28/18 07:07 AM
09/28/18 07:07 AM
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Chicago
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But it's interesting that they didnt come out and SAY, they were Bonnano members, and even MORE interesting that they DIDNT correct the Hamilton police.

Also, I've NEVER seen either the Violis or Luppinos on ANY Bonnano chart by any of the respected reserachers.


My point being, if Bonnano soldiers, it must be pretty recent that they were made right?

WHO would have made them? Rastelli, Massino, or Montagna when he got deported? And when? Also, if they were Bonnano members, why didnt Montagna use them, and their crew, instead of street gangs, the Frenchman, LoPrestis son, the unmade Calabrian Mirarchi....


I keep hearing about the Bonnanos Canadian crew. NO ONE HAS NAMED EM!

That big Bonnano xmas party where ALL the capos showed, WHO REPRESENTED CANADA? Why no Violis or Luppinos, or someone there?






I feel like they woulda showed up on the FBIs radar, or someones charts.

If they are Bonnano members, about what time period you guys think they were made? Which boss, which era?
And what crew are they with? The Bronx?


Do you think Montagna made the brothers?

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: NickyfromTampa] #954252
09/28/18 07:25 AM
09/28/18 07:25 AM
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NickleCity Offline
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Originally Posted by NickyfromTampa
Originally Posted by BensonHURST
The Violio's never had aby ties d's zto the Bonnano's?
Correct?

Technically the Bonnano's killed their father and uncles and as learned from on here

The Rizzutto/Bonnano's were trying to kill the sons and cousins

I guess that's where LUPPINO came in and was protecting them under one Buffalo banner.

If I have the story correct?




The Violis have plenty of ties to the Bonanno crime family in that the investigation to them by the RCMuP and the investigation into the Bonannos in Canada by Vincenzo Morena were parallel investigations that were linked and intertwined.
Also, I think it was deduced that the Violis attended the Morena induction ceremony. Nickle, correct me if I'm wrong.


@Tampa, that is what I heard. Also, did you see the theory on Twitter that Antimafia alerted us to?
Originally Posted by antimafia
A Twitter user -- he and I follow each other -- speculated about the two crime groups that are at odds with each other. See https://twitter.com/donhanzel/status/1042814455715905536.

I think he's arguing that Domenico and Giuseppe Violi lost their backing from individuals in Buffalo because the Violis attended the Bonanno induction ceremony.


And did you see the Manning tweet thread showing police intelligence of Pat Musitano talking with Johnny “Catz” from Buffalo in ‘98. It appears the Musitanos were still tight with Buffalo after the Pops Hit, and Manning said Buffalo gave permission for the Pops murder. In my mind that changes everything. Here is the twtter thread:

Musitano Talking to Catz in ‘98

Last edited by NickleCity; 09/28/18 09:48 AM. Reason: Added also
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954253
09/28/18 07:42 AM
09/28/18 07:42 AM
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CabriniGreen Offline
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I read something on another forum, I cant substantiate it. So it's not anything confirmed, but I read, i think it was Anthony Todaro? That the Todaros gave the go ahead on Papalia, and that the Violis were sore over it.

From what i read it wasnt really the Rizzutos. But I'm in no way qualified to validate any of that, so it's just speculation.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: CabriniGreen] #954255
09/28/18 08:50 AM
09/28/18 08:50 AM
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Ciment Offline
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Originally Posted by CabriniGreen
I read something on another forum, I cant substantiate it. So it's not anything confirmed, but I read, i think it was Anthony Todaro? That the Todaros gave the go ahead on Papalia, and that the Violis were sore over it.

From what i read it wasnt really the Rizzutos. But I'm in no way qualified to validate any of that, so it's just speculation.


The Luppino family and the Buffalo crime family have had a relationship lasting for decades I can't see the Todaro's using the Musitano's to kill Papalia. It would of been contracted out to the Luppino's.

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Ciment] #954256
09/28/18 09:21 AM
09/28/18 09:21 AM
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NickleCity Offline
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NickleCity  Offline
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Originally Posted by Ciment
Originally Posted by CabriniGreen
I read something on another forum, I cant substantiate it. So it's not anything confirmed, but I read, i think it was Anthony Todaro? That the Todaros gave the go ahead on Papalia, and that the Violis were sore over it.

From what i read it wasnt really the Rizzutos. But I'm in no way qualified to validate any of that, so it's just speculation.


The Luppino family and the Buffalo crime family have had a relationship lasting for decades I can't see the Todaro's using the Musitano's to kill Papalia. It would of been contracted out to the Luppino's.


@Ciment: Does it matter that Manning indicated Buffalo didn't order the Musitanos to hit Pops; rather, they gave their permission for it to happen?

By the way, I've attached the intelligence picture manning posted for those who don't do twitter. Here is the twitter exchange

MANNING: Police recorded conversation between Pat Musitano and two UK males circa 1998, just after the Paplia homicide.
I have over 2,000 docs I’ve not even looked at yet, but you’d be shocked how often #hamont officers come up as ‘subjects’

COMMENT: Is that Johnny Catz from Buffalo?

MANNING RESPONSE: What I was thinking....

COMMENT: So Buffalo was still tight with Musitanos after Pops hit?

COMMENT: I heard rumors Buffalo ordered it, but never believed it then... Always thought, and think it was reported that, it was Musitanos moving in on Buffalo’s control of area rackets since Buffalo had been greatly weakened by Local 210 going into federal trusteeship.

MANNING'S RESPONSE: Never ‘ordered’ it, but permission was given. Also have intel reports suggesting the Papalia brothers knew what was going to happen.

Attached Files Pat Musitano talks with Johny Catz of Buffalo.jpg
Last edited by NickleCity; 09/28/18 09:28 AM. Reason: Added @Ciment
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: bronx] #954260
09/28/18 11:28 AM
09/28/18 11:28 AM
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I originally thought Papilia and Borillo were Bonanno
But They were not they were Buffalo

So really what happened was

1) Rizzuto participated in the 3 vapors murder.
2) He solidified his position with at the time was the new boss of the Bonanno family Massimo.
3) Rizzuto/Bonanno took over Montreal.
4) Rizzuto/Bonanno took out Papali and Boriello who were Buffalo, with the permission of Buffalo am in.
5) The fact that Buffalo did not retaliate wasn$t a sign of weakness.
6) So whomever Buffalo, dictated to take over their roles at the time they OK'd the hit, should he Morgan likely still in charge.

So the story line that they went defunct and they got hit and could not avenge the murders because they were too weak, was FALSE.

So the Mustiano's did the hit with the backing of the Rizzutto's/Bonnano's with the permission of Buffalo.

Do I have this correct?

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: BensonHURST] #954262
09/28/18 11:39 AM
09/28/18 11:39 AM
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NickleCity Offline
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Originally Posted by BensonHURST
I originally thought Papilia and Borillo were Bonanno
But They were not they were Buffalo

So really what happened was

1) Rizzuto participated in the 3 vapors murder.
2) He solidified his position with at the time was the new boss of the Bonanno family Massimo.
3) Rizzuto/Bonanno took over Montreal.
4) Rizzuto/Bonanno took out Papali and Boriello who were Buffalo, with the permission of Buffalo am in.
5) The fact that Buffalo did not retaliate wasn$t a sign of weakness.
6) So whomever Buffalo, dictated to take over their roles at the time they OK'd the hit, should he Morgan likely still in charge.

So the story line that they went defunct and they got hit and could not avenge the murders because they were too weak, was FALSE.

So the Mustiano's did the hit with the backing of the Rizzutto's/Bonnano's with the permission of Buffalo.

Do I have this correct?


I am pretty sure 1-3 are correct.... They can be confirmed with CBC News Article "The Rizzuto Family" by Corrine Smitth she writes:

Quote
1981: Police believe Vito Rizzuto is formally inducted into the powerful New York Bonanno family organization after allegedly helping to murder three of the family's captains who were suspected of plotting a takeover. Authorities start referring to the younger Rizzuto as "Godfather" of the Montreal Mafia, and he becomes Canada's most influential member of the Bonnano clan.


We don't really know if 4 is correct
Given Manning is right--we can assume number 5
And who knows about number 6--things can change quickly.

Here is the link to the CBC NEWS article: CBC NEWS: "Rizzuto Family" by Corrine Smith (Nov. 2010)

Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: NickleCity] #954264
09/28/18 12:01 PM
09/28/18 12:01 PM
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Ciment Offline
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Originally Posted by NickleCity
Originally Posted by Ciment
Originally Posted by CabriniGreen
I read something on another forum, I cant substantiate it. So it's not anything confirmed, but I read, i think it was Anthony Todaro? That the Todaros gave the go ahead on Papalia, and that the Violis were sore over it.

From what i read it wasnt really the Rizzutos. But I'm in no way qualified to validate any of that, so it's just speculation.


The Luppino family and the Buffalo crime family have had a relationship lasting for decades I can't see the Todaro's using the Musitano's to kill Papalia. It would of been contracted out to the Luppino's.


@Ciment: Does it matter that Manning indicated Buffalo didn't order the Musitanos to hit Pops; rather, they gave their permission for it to happen?

By the way, I've attached the intelligence picture manning posted for those who don't do twitter. Here is the twitter exchange

MANNING: Police recorded conversation between Pat Musitano and two UK males circa 1998, just after the Paplia homicide.
I have over 2,000 docs I’ve not even looked at yet, but you’d be shocked how often #hamont officers come up as ‘subjects’

COMMENT: Is that Johnny Catz from Buffalo?

MANNING RESPONSE: What I was thinking....

COMMENT: So Buffalo was still tight with Musitanos after Pops hit?

COMMENT: I heard rumors Buffalo ordered it, but never believed it then... Always thought, and think it was reported that, it was Musitanos moving in on Buffalo’s control of area rackets since Buffalo had been greatly weakened by Local 210 going into federal trusteeship.

MANNING'S RESPONSE: Never ‘ordered’ it, but permission was given. Also have intel reports suggesting the Papalia brothers knew what was going to happen.


The theory that Buffalo would give the go ahead, permission or contract to the Musitano's to have Papalia hit, does not make sense in my opinion. The Rizzuto's being behind it is more believable. They were allies with the Musitano's.

I believe more Peter Edwards and Antonio Nicasso's theory that Rizzuto wanted to expand into Ontario and Papalia,Violi and Luppino's were in his way.

Let's entertain that Buffalo gave permission then the Luppino/Violi's would have to have been consulted and be part of the decision because of their long history with the Buffalo crime family. What benefit would the Luppino's get from this. All that would do is give more power to their enemies. Rizzuto and Musitano's were allies and the Rizzuto's are no friends of the Luppino/Violi's.

Unless, and it would not surprise me with the Rizzuto's, that it was their ultimate goal or plan between Buffalo/Musitano/ and Rizzuto's to oust the Papalia and then proceed to the oust Luppino/Violi's ?

But that would start a war with the Commisso's because of their family ties with the Luppino's.



Last edited by Ciment; 09/28/18 01:19 PM.
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Ciment] #954267
09/28/18 01:05 PM
09/28/18 01:05 PM
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NickleCity Offline
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NickleCity  Offline
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Originally Posted by Ciment


The theory that Buffalo would give the go ahead, permission or contract to the Musitano's to have Papalia hit, does not make sense in my opinion. The Rizzuto's being behind it is more believable. They were allies with the Musitano's.

I believe more Peter Edwards and Antonio Nicasso's theory that Rizzuto wanted to expand into Ontario and Papalia,Violi and Luppino's were in his way.

Let's entertain that Buffalo gave permission then the Luppino/Violi's would have to have been consulted and be part of the decision because of their long history with the Buffalo crime family. What benefit would the Luppino's get from this. All that would do is give more power to their enemies. Rizzuto and Musitano's were allies and the Rizzuto's are no friends of the Luppino/Violi's.


Can both be true? Would it be too much of a stretch that Buffalo was fed up with Pops and signed off on the hit because he had Angelo run over and Pasquale beat up? Did the Rizzuto's use this bad blood to expand into Ontario? Did Buffalo get a piece for allowing this to happened? Weren't the Musitanos know to be allies of Buffalo too?

This raises a lot of questions. One thing is for sure Edwards is knowledgable and reputable, and we shouldn't dismiss what he wrote in Business or Blood.

Attached Files Musitano and Papilia Bad Blood.jpg
Last edited by NickleCity; 09/28/18 01:10 PM. Reason: Changed pat to Angelo--my bad, added picture anti shared
Re: another mob guy murdered [Re: Ciment] #954269
09/28/18 01:18 PM
09/28/18 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted by Ciment
The theory that Buffalo would give the go ahead, permission or contract to the Musitano's to have Papalia hit, does not make sense in my opinion.


If does if you understand how the Mafia works. Perhaps Papalia had fallen out of favor with Buffalo and had become disposable. I think the Rizzutos could've gotten into trouble with the admin in New York (Sciascia still being alive) if Buffalo wouldn't have sanctioned the hit and people having to answer for it. This is exactly what happened with Panepinto. Since nobody did answer for it (unless Angelo's murder was related) it makes a lot of sense.

Quote
I believe more Peter Edwards and Antonio Nicasso's theory that Rizzuto wanted to expand into Ontario and Papalia,Violi and Luppino's were in his way.


Then why didn't they just kill them all? Why leave the vengeful kids of Paolo Violi alive? Because Mafia politics protected their safety. Too many people opposed to it (Toronto and New York) so they couldn't do it.

Quote
Let's entertain that Buffalo gave permission then the Luppino/Violi's would have to have been consulted and be part of the decision because of their long history with the Buffalo crime family.


The Luppinos didn't need to be consulted at all if Buffalo gave permission as Papalia was a member of their family. If they gave permission, that'll be it.


"It was between the brothers Kay -- I had nothing to do with it."
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