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What if the Gun Wasn't There? #910531
04/12/17 09:33 AM
04/12/17 09:33 AM
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
The Last Woltz Offline OP
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The Last Woltz  Offline OP
Underboss
Joined: May 2006
Posts: 773
Pittsburgh, PA
Watching the Godfather last night on AMC got me to thinking about an alternative history:

What if Clemenza failed to get the gun planted in the restaurant and Michael came out of the bathroom with just his dick in his hand?

What does Michael do then? Does he negotiate some kind of deal with Sollozzo? Does he delay with the goal of getting a second meeting and trying the whole thing again?

Michael seemed so nervous during that scene; I wonder whether he could devise and pull off an impromptu strategy. Upon reflection, would Michael have second thoughts about being the triggerman?

What about Sollozzo? If he survives, does he try to kill Vito again? Does he succeed? Without Michael having to flee to Italy, does the Dons meeting ever happen? Does Vito ever figure out it was Barzini all along?


"A man in my position cannot afford to be made to look ridiculous!"
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: The Last Woltz] #910537
04/12/17 10:06 AM
04/12/17 10:06 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,463
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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Posts: 1,463
No. Virginia
One resource he has is Tessio outside in the car (Sollozzo's driver has disappeared, of course). Maybe pretend to storm out, try to lure them into the street or come back with Tessio?


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: The Last Woltz] #910547
04/12/17 11:06 AM
04/12/17 11:06 AM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Woltz, the novel states that Michael must have been scared, but yet he was calm enough to ignore Clemenza's instructions to come out blasting because he reasoned that that was not appropriate to the situation.

I think that if the gun wasn't there, Michael would have continued his conversation with Sollozzo, feigned agreement, and then the Corleones would have tried to arrange another meeting or just gone after Sollozzo otherwise.


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: olivant] #910557
04/12/17 12:57 PM
04/12/17 12:57 PM
Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 341
North America
Mr. Blonde Offline
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Mr. Blonde  Offline
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Joined: Jul 2006
Posts: 341
North America
Originally Posted By: olivant
Woltz, the novel states that Michael must have been scared, but yet he was calm enough to ignore Clemenza's instructions to come out blasting because he reasoned that that was not appropriate to the situation.

I think that if the gun wasn't there, Michael would have continued his conversation with Sollozzo, feigned agreement, and then the Corleones would have tried to arrange another meeting or just gone after Sollozzo otherwise.


I agree with this. Michael would not have tried some desperate backup plan - he would have bided his time, earning a little trust from Sollozzo in the process.

Setting up another meeting would not be a given (as you allude to) but it would be worth a shot, with alternative plans being devised as well. Though I would expect another hit attempt on Vito if they waited too long. Michael's not the only one who could act one way while plotting to go in a totally different direction.

Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: Mr. Blonde] #910561
04/12/17 01:44 PM
04/12/17 01:44 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,502
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,502
AZ
I think Sol had to kill Vito, no matter what he might have negotiated with Michael at the restaurant. Two reasons:

First: Vito had said no to drugs, and when he recovered, he would still have said no, and would have countermanded any arrangement or accommodation that Michael, Sonny and/or Tom could have made in the interim.


Second: Sol's strategic goal in killing Vito was to gravely weaken the Corleones to get better terms for his deal. As Tom said, "If we lose the old man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength." That would mean that half of the politicos who were in Vito's pocket would be available to be bought by Sol and Tatt. Then he could bargain with Sonny for the remaining half of the Corleones' political strength at reduced rates.

As Michael noted, correctly, the meeting was a stalling tactic so Sol could get more time to take another shot at Vito.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: The Last Woltz] #910600
04/12/17 10:17 PM
04/12/17 10:17 PM
Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
O
olivant Offline
olivant  Offline
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Joined: Feb 2003
Posts: 15,019
Texas
Woltz, your question about the Dons' meeting, etc. is a good one. Of course, if Michael doesn't murder Sollozzo, the whole story arc changes. However, more questions: does Michael go back to college; does Vito then have the time to groom Michael for leadership; does Sonny succeed Vito; does Tom remain as Consigliere; what happens to the drug trade; do the Barzinis eclipse the Corleones; do further attempts by Sollozzo to murder Vito succeed; how does all of the foregoing alter the organized crime structure in NY; and most importantly, does Fredo ever learn the casino business?


"Generosity. That was my first mistake."
"Experience must be our only guide; reason may mislead us."
"Instagram is Twitter for people who can't read."
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: Turnbull] #911074
04/20/17 08:00 PM
04/20/17 08:00 PM
Joined: Jun 2016
Posts: 279
J
JackieAprile Offline
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JackieAprile  Offline
J
Capo
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Posts: 279
Originally Posted By: Turnbull
I think Sol had to kill Vito, no matter what he might have negotiated with Michael at the restaurant. Two reasons:

First: Vito had said no to drugs, and when he recovered, he would still have said no, and would have countermanded any arrangement or accommodation that Michael, Sonny and/or Tom could have made in the interim.


Second: Sol's strategic goal in killing Vito was to gravely weaken the Corleones to get better terms for his deal. As Tom said, "If we lose the old man, we lose our political contacts and half our strength." That would mean that half of the politicos who were in Vito's pocket would be available to be bought by Sol and Tatt. Then he could bargain with Sonny for the remaining half of the Corleones' political strength at reduced rates.

As Michael noted, correctly, the meeting was a stalling tactic so Sol could get more time to take another shot at Vito.


Thing is, how were they gonna get to Vito? As long as Vito was in the house recovering, he was practically invulnerable. They'd have to send a small army of guys to get past Sonny's crew and the other guys guarding the compound after the shooting.

Solozzo I feel was fucked either way you slice it. He was a dead man walking and he knew it.

Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: JackieAprile] #911084
04/20/17 10:53 PM
04/20/17 10:53 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,502
AZ
Turnbull Offline
Turnbull  Offline

Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,502
AZ
Originally Posted By: JackieAprile

Thing is, how were they gonna get to Vito? As long as Vito was in the house recovering, he was practically invulnerable.

Yes, but Vito was in the hospital for weeks until he was able to come home. Sol could have gotten to him in the hospital. The people who were guarding Vito were "private detectives," as Tom told McCluskey. They could have been bought by Sol.

Quote:
Solozzo I feel was fucked either way you slice it. He was a dead man walking and he knew it.

No doubt about it. That's why Sol was so desperate to kill Vito--it was his only chance, he thought, to cut a deal with Sonny and Tom to get his business going--and to save his life.


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: What if the Gun Wasn't There? [Re: The Last Woltz] #912540
05/12/17 08:37 AM
05/12/17 08:37 AM
Joined: Mar 2012
Posts: 540
Willenhall
Philip_Lombardo Offline
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Philip_Lombardo  Offline
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Posts: 540
Willenhall
He'd have been walking out of there with just his dick in his hands


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