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Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893686
09/13/16 05:31 AM
09/13/16 05:31 AM
Joined: Nov 2010
Posts: 7,212
naples,italy
furio_from_naples Offline
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Posts: 7,212
naples,italy
I counted 20 members dead since 2001 in my opinion if as it's happening, whites are disappearing from Detroit (they are just the 10%) can happen only 2 things or family will die and the various Tocco, Giacalone and co become legitimate businessmen or the family would made only by the Tocco-Giacalone families and another big bust or another man that flips or a black gang that want to kill the italians... and the family will die.
But it's just my opinion.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: furio_from_naples] #893707
09/13/16 12:25 PM
09/13/16 12:25 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
I counted 20 members dead since 2001 in my opinion if as it's happening, whites are disappearing from Detroit (they are just the 10%) can happen only 2 things or family will die and the various Tocco, Giacalone and co become legitimate businessmen or the family would made only by the Tocco-Giacalone families and another big bust or another man that flips or a black gang that want to kill the italians... and the family will die.
But it's just my opinion.


If we go with members/possible members who have died since 2001, it's over 30.


Mateo "Mike Bartello" Bartolotta (2003)
Carlo Bommarito (2007)
Anthony "Tony Long" Cimini (2005)
Anthony "Tony the Bull" Corrado (2002)
Michael DiAngelo (2002)
James "Vincent" Galici (2005)
Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone (2001)
Anthony "Fat Tony" Giacalone, Jr (2013)
Vito "Billy Jack" Giacolone (2012)
Jack "Jackie G" Gianosa (2003)
Salvatore "Sammy G" Giordano (2002)
Salvatore "Sammy Soup" Lentine (2002)
Dominic Licavoli (2003)
Salvatore "Soupy" Lentine (2002)
Sam Lucido (2011)
Peter "Milwaukee Pete" Maniaci (2003)
Vincent "Little Vince" Meli (2006)
Anthony "Pretty Boy Tony" Munaco (2005)
Leonardo "Leo Monday" Monteleone (2006)
Rafaela "Jimmy Q" Quassarano (2001)
Joseph "Jo Jo" Ruggirello (2013)
James "Jackie Two Guns" Russo (2012)
Anthony "Tony T" Tocco (2012)
Jack "Black Jack" Tocco (2014)
William "Billy Boy" Tocco (2007) (suicide)
Paul Tocco (2014)
Daniel "The Trigger" Triglia (2013)
Dominic "Lefty" Tringale (2007)
Dominic Vaccari (2001)
Frank "Chinky" Versaci (2012)
Anthony "Tony Z" Zerilli (2015)


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: IvyLeague] #893762
09/13/16 06:55 PM
09/13/16 06:55 PM
Joined: Apr 2014
Posts: 1,222
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Blackjack2121 Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: furio_from_naples
I counted 20 members dead since 2001 in my opinion if as it's happening, whites are disappearing from Detroit (they are just the 10%) can happen only 2 things or family will die and the various Tocco, Giacalone and co become legitimate businessmen or the family would made only by the Tocco-Giacalone families and another big bust or another man that flips or a black gang that want to kill the italians... and the family will die.
But it's just my opinion.


If we go with members/possible members who have died since 2001, it's over 30.


Mateo "Mike Bartello" Bartolotta (2003)
Carlo Bommarito (2007)
Anthony "Tony Long" Cimini (2005)
Anthony "Tony the Bull" Corrado (2002)
Michael DiAngelo (2002)
James "Vincent" Galici (2005)
Anthony "Tony Jack" Giacalone (2001)
Anthony "Fat Tony" Giacalone, Jr (2013)
Vito "Billy Jack" Giacolone (2012)
Jack "Jackie G" Gianosa (2003)
Salvatore "Sammy G" Giordano (2002)
Salvatore "Sammy Soup" Lentine (2002)
Dominic Licavoli (2003)
Salvatore "Soupy" Lentine (2002)
Sam Lucido (2011)
Peter "Milwaukee Pete" Maniaci (2003)
Vincent "Little Vince" Meli (2006)
Anthony "Pretty Boy Tony" Munaco (2005)
Leonardo "Leo Monday" Monteleone (2006)
Rafaela "Jimmy Q" Quassarano (2001)
Joseph "Jo Jo" Ruggirello (2013)
James "Jackie Two Guns" Russo (2012)
Anthony "Tony T" Tocco (2012)
Jack "Black Jack" Tocco (2014)
William "Billy Boy" Tocco (2007) (suicide)
Paul Tocco (2014)
Daniel "The Trigger" Triglia (2013)
Dominic "Lefty" Tringale (2007)
Dominic Vaccari (2001)
Frank "Chinky" Versaci (2012)
Anthony "Tony Z" Zerilli (2015)





Look...I do have respect for your information you have compiled on all the families, it is quite impressive. But you like to bend things to fit your perspective and at times have been caught ignoring the FBI's view on how certain things are....or happened etc. Obviously I am not saying you are the only one who does this...but u are also guilty of it.

This post is one example. When it comes to someones list that includes possible members...associates that have not been confirmed as made or they are up in the air....you immediately dismiss it as inflated.

However in your attempt to make the Detroit family look even smaller, you wanted to make your list of members who have died in the last 15 years as large as possible, so you include those people listed as questionable. Quite hypocritical of you there, buddy.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: IvyLeague] #893767
09/13/16 10:23 PM
09/13/16 10:23 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,047
Philly Burbs
mikeyballs211 Offline
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: CabriniGreen
@IveyAhh,okay I get you. I also appreciate you understanding, I'm not attacking you or trying to antagonize. Honestly the vibe I get from you on Detroit is like, a frustrated college professor who's tired of answering the same questions from the student that never pays attention, lol.


That's a good way to put it.

Quote:
I also didn't initially understand the Scott thing. I really didn't, I guess he wants to be the Detroit version of Jerry Capeci? Is that what the angle is there?


Really the only disagreement I've had with Scott - and this goes back some years on another forum - is his charts and how he's generally presented the state of the Detroit mob. But even while disagreeing, I've said many times that he's provided a lot of good information about Detroit otherwise. It's where he started before branching out with his Leonetti book (his best work in my opinion) and his blog where he writes about several families.

Originally Posted By: mikeyballs211

@ivy the point you're missing about Detroit is that when you look at their history going back to Zerilli and then Tocco they have always been a low key successful family with very few major busts and one made member thats ever cooperated. With that being said if there weren't many busts at all or very few major busts that you would classify as such at a time when the FBI had OC as their main focus nationwide, then now when they have clearly shifted focus to Terrorism that would serve as somewhat of an explanation for why their havent been any busts?

Look i for one respect your knowledge as ive said before, but when you debate with someone that refuses to concede anything it comes off as elitest and ignorant and i dont think that would accurately describe you. I agree that mob prosecutions are a good tell tale indicator of activity of a family, but you have to concede Detroit may very well be an exception for a few reasons 1) they are the most intermarried connected family in the country and that means something .. The feds cant make cases as easily when no one is talking 2) going off that first point, theyve had 1 made guy flip in over a century of mob activity.. That fact has to resonate that maybe just maybe thats why there isnt as many major busts 3) the city of Detroit is a mess and the law enforcement there is rightly focused on the black and latino gangs that have ruined that city not the italians 4) the fbi there is largely concerned with domestic terrorism in that Michigan and one town specifically im blanking on the name has the largest muslim population in the country, and they are heavily monitoring that group for terrorism ( i dont have the washington post article handy but im positive ive read this fact)

I know ive made this argument before , but its insanely frustrating when you are the only one who will not concede anything and acknowledge that maybe they are a strong viable family relative to their history ..no ones saying they're on par with thre Westside...i mean theyve never had more than what 80 made guys? And i dont contend they have that now, but to me 50+ isn't a stretch. Remember id say 95% of the major mob busts that you use as ur bench mark for how families are functioning involved informants and made guys flipping... And Detroit has had 1 ever and i don't think ive read theyve had many associates flip. I mean you have to at least concede that, the feds have alotta trouble making cases when theres no informants and detroit hasnt had any, maybe in the future they will...and again im from Philly i could give a shit about the Detroit mafia im not some fan boy about criminals, but if the purpose of this site is to discuss the mafia, it would behoove you to consider the opposing side and admit the possibilities of others arguments.. Doing so doesnt make you any less of a mob expert, it just makes you seem less like a know it all


I could concede all the explanations you made above for the relative lack of cases but I'm not sure how much it really changes.

In other words, even if I were to add Detroit to the list of remaining families, I still see little evidence (other than Scott) of an overly hierarchical family (as shown in his charts) with 40, 50, or more members, that is criminally diversified and operates far and wide in and beyond Detroit. Because that's the picture that's been presented.

Do I think there is some semblance of an organized structure in Detroit? Yes. Do I think it includes a boss, street boss, underboss, consigliere, a few "counselor emeritus," 4-6 captains or acting captains, in addition to the soldiers? No. Do I take Scott's membership figures and charts at face value? No. Why not? Because they fluctuated over several years, ranging anywhere from 30 to nearly 60 members. And only later on, and after many debates, did he say that not all the names he listed were necessarily made members.

Do I think 50 members for Detroit is a stretch? Absolutely. That would make it similar in size to New Jersey, New England, or Philadelphia which all have larger Italian-American populations. Furthermore, as I've pointed out about a bazillion times now, the feds had the family at 30 members at most 20 years ago. 20 years for crying out loud! Am I supposed to believe Detroit has somehow bucked the general trend over the last two decades and actually grown in size? Especially when many of its members have died over that time and even Scott hasn't said there's actually been any recent making ceremonies. And speaking of Scott, even he had the family at 25 members in his 2006 book.

Even if I consider the family to still be active, does that mean there's any evidence it's very diversified? Not much at all. It's mainly a bookmaking operation with some loansharking and card games. And, yes, you could say that about other families. Involvement in the drug trade is basically non-existent. There really isn't any labor racketeering activity to speak of. Even before LaPiana sold his company. There are certainly many who have legitimate interests, some well off financially. That's what the Detroit mob is today - a gambling operation with interests in legitimate businesses as well. That's not an insult, just a statement of fact.

And does this operation extend to any significant degree beyond Detroit? Specifically the eastern suburbs? No. I see no evidence of it having an active San Diego crew. Nothing really to speak of in Chicago or Canada. Maybe a few old retirees living in Florida. It's very limited in scope, as are most of the remaining mob families now.

Originally Posted By: Blackjack2121
Yeah, I do agree with your point of Detroit never had busts left and right like the NYC families. And that seems to be Ivy's point of contention as to why he considers them basically dead or inactive. Rats make most of the cases in NY (ie: Merlino and Patsy bust most recently) and Detroit only had Nove turn. But really we should just end the debate its the same people and their view wont change so I wish we could discuss things about Detroit other than. They got 75 members! Abd growing!...Or....the family is dead! Jackie is just a business man and the 10 soldiers they have are all inactive!

I mean, come on!


Read what I posted above in regards to me thinking they're dead or inactive.

Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Detroit Family of the La Cosa Nostra (LCN) an extremely active criminal enterprise consisting of approximately 30 "made members" and between 200 and 300 associates. Detroit LCN members are tightly bound through blood and marriage, making the organization extremely difficult to penetrate. Traditionally, this family has been involved in illegal gambling, loan sharking, money laundering, drug trafficking, and the infiltration of legitimate businesses. They have also maintained a strong relationship with Sicilian Mafia members operating in the Detroit area.
------FROM THE FBI WEBSITE


That FBI website article, which has been up for years, is in reference to the family at the time of the 1996 GamTax bust and before.

Quote:
Almost everyone important in the crime family is related by blood or marriage in some way to almost everyone else of any significance and this makes the organization extremely difficult to penetrate,” retired Detroit FBI agent Mike Carone notes. “For an outsider, whether in law enforcement or not, to get real close to these guys is practically impossible.
------FBI AGENT


Nobody is arguing otherwise. But that can't be used as a blanket excuse to put forth unrealistic images of the current size, activity, and scope of the Detroit mob.

Quote:
To paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of their demise have been much overstated,” Corbett said. “The current leaders, guys like Jack Tocco, may be on the way out due to age, but there is a younger generation coming up behind them ready, willing and able to take the reins. From its inception, this organization was built for the long haul and it will continue to sustain. I don’t think we’ll be talking about the eradication of the mafia in Detroit for quite a while.”-------KEITH CORBETT HEAD OF DETROIT OC SQUAD 1990-2004


And so we see some in law enforcement still consider the family viable. Some OC experts apparently don't include it. But even if there's technically still an existing family, that doesn't mean the organization you believe it to be is reality.

Quote:
NEW MEMBERS HAVE REPLACED THE OLD,KEEPING THE DETROITS MOB SIZE AT 30------FBI 2001


15 years ago now, with several members having died since them and no verification of new ceremonies. And that 2001 article, which I was already aware of, is the last time you'll see 30 members cited.

Quote:
"They're cloaking themselves in Legitament business,now more than ever. But I'm not saying they're doing Legitament business"--FBI 2009


And?



Ivy my friend I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post and acknowledge that you did concede some points. I respect the shit outta ur knowledge and research skills and would never shit on u for ur opinions, we just dont see eye to eye on this one..

Im not arguing that their operations are extremely diversified beyond the Midwest, but what I am saying is that since they've always operated in the shadows and that we can all agree Detroit is rebuilding the climate their is ripe for their quiet success..I mean as silvio dante said and its true "our thing" (gambling, girls, drugs, shylock) have always been recession proof, plus some of the past gambling busts scott has reported on involving guys like Allen Hilf were way into the multi millions and involved turf in Ohio and Milwaukee..twl surrounding cities with alotta action but now mafia families..if we agree theyr active and even if u say 30 members, full admin, and say 100+ associates, these guys have to be earning money no? Otherwise they would be pulling cowboy shit or trusting shady fucks like Merlinos latest bust

The point is, I think you are insanely underestimating the strength and power of detroit..your.argument still is not addressing that when they were at their peak they were just as quiet, lowkey, less violent as they are today meanimg how can u claim theyre not extremely active respective to the times..now again im not dumb they dont have the unions like they did ..and also ivy you failed to rebut my point that ur main gauge for activity is cases, yet Detroit has had the fewest made guys flip(1!!) And theyre all related and intermarried..I.e. you cant judge a lack of cases showing an inactive family in this case..

Serious question for you and anyone..do they really not have any teamsters or other union locals theyve infiltrated? Considering they invented union corruption basically and held sway there for almost a century I find that hard to believe, but I defer to more knowledgeable posters..any thoughts?


"No, no, you aint alrite Spyder you got alotta fuckin problems"
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: ralphie_cifaretto] #893769
09/13/16 10:27 PM
09/13/16 10:27 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,047
Philly Burbs
mikeyballs211 Offline
acting associate
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Originally Posted By: ralphie_cifaretto
Originally Posted By: mikeyballs211
And Detroit has had 1 ever and i don't think ive read theyve had many associates flip. I mean you have to at least concede that, the feds have alotta trouble making cases when theres no informants


Very very true and you could say this a thousand times, but some people aren't open to any possibilities. It doesn't matter if there's room for doubt. The logic is: If there's no indictments, it's either defunct or almost defunct. It's a rather odd view when dealing with secret organizations where bloodlines reign supreme.


Ralphie I appreciate your thoughts pal..its.frustrating trying to get your point across sometimes..but I like your point about the very nature of what we're talking about here,a SECRET society and how much Detroit especially emphasize blood relatives..


"No, no, you aint alrite Spyder you got alotta fuckin problems"
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893771
09/13/16 10:32 PM
09/13/16 10:32 PM
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,047
Philly Burbs
mikeyballs211 Offline
acting associate
mikeyballs211  Offline
acting associate
Underboss
Joined: Jul 2014
Posts: 1,047
Philly Burbs
Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Detroit Family of the La Cosa Nostra (LCN) an extremely active criminal enterprise consisting of approximately 30 "made members" and between 200 and 300 associates. Detroit LCN members are tightly bound through blood and marriage, making the organization extremely difficult to penetrate. Traditionally, this family has been involved in illegal gambling, loan sharking, money laundering, drug trafficking, and the infiltration of legitimate businesses. They have also maintained a strong relationship with Sicilian Mafia members operating in the Detroit area.
------FROM THE FBI WEBSITE

Almost everyone important in the crime family is related by blood or marriage in some way to almost everyone else of any significance and this makes the organization extremely difficult to penetrate,” retired Detroit FBI agent Mike Carone notes. “For an outsider, whether in law enforcement or not, to get real close to these guys is practically impossible.
------FBI AGENT


To paraphrase Mark Twain, the reports of their demise have been much overstated,” Corbett said. “The current leaders, guys like Jack Tocco, may be on the way out due to age, but there is a younger generation coming up behind them ready, willing and able to take the reins. From its inception, this organization was built for the long haul and it will continue to sustain. I don’t think we’ll be talking about the eradication of the mafia in Detroit for quite a while.”-------KEITH CORBETT HEAD OF DETROIT OC SQUAD 1990-2004

NEW MEMBERS HAVE REPLACED THE OLD,KEEPING THE DETROITS MOB SIZE AT 30------FBI 2001


"They're cloaking themselves in Legitament business,now more than ever. But I'm not saying they're doing Legitament business"--FBI 2009


I DONT HAVE A MADE UP FORMULA FOR FIGURING OUT WETHER A MAFIA FAMILY THAT HAS BEEN AROUND 100 YEARS, ACTUALLY EXSISTS. I JUST GO BY THE MOST CREDIBLE SOURCE OUT THERE.... THE FBI

Lol and if that was my theory, I'd better start arguing that Michael Genovese and Alphonse Tornabene weren't really mobsters, Just misunderstood businessmen


HHaha Louie misunderstood businessman...thanks for the response buddy I really appreciate you taking the time to solidify the same stance im taking with actual FBI statistics and quotes, well done bud...idk how the point of 1 rat ever in over a century and no police infiltration is not more emphasizd...to me the line u posted about "Detroit built for the long haul is so accurate


"No, no, you aint alrite Spyder you got alotta fuckin problems"
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: mikeyballs211] #893778
09/13/16 11:58 PM
09/13/16 11:58 PM
Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534
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IvyLeague Offline
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Joined: Aug 2008
Posts: 8,534

Originally Posted By: Blackjack2121
Look...I do have respect for your information you have compiled on all the families, it is quite impressive. But you like to bend things to fit your perspective and at times have been caught ignoring the FBI's view on how certain things are....or happened etc. Obviously I am not saying you are the only one who does this...but u are also guilty of it.

This post is one example. When it comes to someones list that includes possible members...associates that have not been confirmed as made or they are up in the air....you immediately dismiss it as inflated.

However in your attempt to make the Detroit family look even smaller, you wanted to make your list of members who have died in the last 15 years as large as possible, so you include those people listed as questionable. Quite hypocritical of you there, buddy.


You would have a point if I had said all those guys listed were made. But we really don't know because we haven't seen a verification on some guys here and there and Scott's lists are hardly conclusive. So I put members or possible members.

I have no need of fudging the numbers to make my point. The known facts make it for me. 30 members at most in 1996 with one article citing that same figure 5 years later. No confirmed ceremonies to speak of. But, even if we assume there have been, what are the chances the family has been able to keep up with the number that have died? Even if only, say, half those guys were actually made?

The point is, the idea the family has 40 or 50 members is unrealistic at this point. Even 30 seems a stretch now, all things considered.



Originally Posted By: mikeyballs211

Ivy my friend I appreciate you taking the time to respond to my post and acknowledge that you did concede some points. I respect the shit outta ur knowledge and research skills and would never shit on u for ur opinions, we just dont see eye to eye on this one..

Im not arguing that their operations are extremely diversified beyond the Midwest, but what I am saying is that since they've always operated in the shadows and that we can all agree Detroit is rebuilding the climate their is ripe for their quiet success..I mean as silvio dante said and its true "our thing" (gambling, girls, drugs, shylock) have always been recession proof, plus some of the past gambling busts scott has reported on involving guys like Allen Hilf were way into the multi millions and involved turf in Ohio and Milwaukee..twl surrounding cities with alotta action but now mafia families..if we agree theyr active and even if u say 30 members, full admin, and say 100+ associates, these guys have to be earning money no? Otherwise they would be pulling cowboy shit or trusting shady fucks like Merlinos latest bust

The point is, I think you are insanely underestimating the strength and power of detroit..your.argument still is not addressing that when they were at their peak they were just as quiet, lowkey, less violent as they are today meanimg how can u claim theyre not extremely active respective to the times..now again im not dumb they dont have the unions like they did ..and also ivy you failed to rebut my point that ur main gauge for activity is cases, yet Detroit has had the fewest made guys flip(1!!) And theyre all related and intermarried..I.e. you cant judge a lack of cases showing an inactive family in this case..

Serious question for you and anyone..do they really not have any teamsters or other union locals theyve infiltrated? Considering they invented union corruption basically and held sway there for almost a century I find that hard to believe, but I defer to more knowledgeable posters..any thoughts?



I don't think I'm underestimating anything because I also figure attrition into it, which is the biggest killer of mob families in the US. That wasn't a factor decades ago when the family was at its peak so it's sort of apples and oranges. Detroit can have all the intermarriages it wants. It doesn't stop them from dying off. Furthermore, how long are we supposed to use that reasoning to explain away the relative lack of mob cases in Detroit? Another 10 years? 20 years?

As for you're union question, when you say "they invented union corruption," I assume you mean the LCN in general. There was a time when the Detroit family was involved in labor racketeering but there hasn't been any examples of it in a long time. Even the 20 years old GamTax case didn't involve the unions. Scott would bring up Tony LaPiana as his example of Detroit's union connections but he was hardly an example of the family as a whole having any significant labor racketeering activity at this point.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893785
09/14/16 12:59 AM
09/14/16 12:59 AM
Joined: Mar 2013
Posts: 1,861
L
Louiebynochi Offline OP
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Louiebynochi  Offline OP
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Posts: 1,861
Ivy,

The FBI says they're alive and well and yet you disagree. your formula would make sense if the FUCKING FBI didn't disagree with you.Stick to being a probation officer and leave the status of the Detroit LCN to the experts at the FBI. I hate to tell you but I think your becoming what you despise most . A deranged poster that comepletely ignores and contradicts the FBI's stance on a particular issue.
I think at this point Jack V Giacolone could personally send you a list of every member of the Detroit LCN Family and a quarterly earnings sheet and you would dismiss him as not credible!
Also you said intermarriage and relatives won't stave off attrition . I hate to tell you buddy but it's the opposite. there's something called intercourse and procreation. meaning these people are born and join the family. it's a familial generational thing meaning as long as they can procreate and give life... The Detroit LCN Family will have life.

Last edited by Louiebynochi; 09/14/16 01:02 AM.

A March 1986 raid on DiBernardo's office seized alleged "child pornography and financial records." As "a result of the Postal Inspectors seizures [a federal prosecutor] is attempting to indict DiBernardo on child pornography violations" according to an FBI memo dated May 20, 1986.
Thousands of pages of FBI Files that document his involvement in Child Porn
https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/star-distributors-ltd-46454/
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/0...s-Miporn-investigation-of/7758361252800/
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1526052/united-states-v-dibernardo/
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893789
09/14/16 01:13 AM
09/14/16 01:13 AM
Joined: Oct 2013
Posts: 4,461
Green Grove Retirement Communi...
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Ivy's a probation officer?


"...the successful annihilation of organized crime's subculture in America would rock the 'legitimate' world's foundation, which would ultimately force fundamental social changes and redistributions of wealth and power in this country. Meyer Lansky's dream was to bond the two worlds together so that one could not survive without the other." - Dan E. Moldea
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: OakAsFan] #893797
09/14/16 01:56 AM
09/14/16 01:56 AM
Joined: Aug 2008
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Ivy,

The FBI says they're alive and well and yet you disagree. your formula would make sense if the FUCKING FBI didn't disagree with you.Stick to being a probation officer and leave the status of the Detroit LCN to the experts at the FBI. I hate to tell you but I think your becoming what you despise most . A deranged poster that comepletely ignores and contradicts the FBI's stance on a particular issue.
I think at this point Jack V Giacolone could personally send you a list of every member of the Detroit LCN Family and a quarterly earnings sheet and you would dismiss him as not credible!
Also you said intermarriage and relatives won't stave off attrition . I hate to tell you buddy but it's the opposite. there's something called intercourse and procreation. meaning these people are born and join the family. it's a familial generational thing meaning as long as they can procreate and give life... The Detroit LCN Family will have life.


As I've said before, while nobody refers to the FBI more than I do, I put more weight in what they do than what they say. And in terms of action, the Detroit mob doesn't seem to be a high priority for them. Or for state law enforcement for that matter. That tells me something. And, as I've also said, I take all available evidence and weigh it in the balance. And that includes OC experts who don't seem to recognize Detroit anymore.

You're assuming that them simply having kids will prolong the crime family. Attrition, in a mob context, not only means fewer numbers but also newer generations not getting involved in the life. Even Scott said that appears to be the case. If imagining an unstoppable mob family in Detroit going for the next 50 years makes you feel better, Louie, go ahead. But it's not reality. And time will bear that out whether you can deal with it or not.

And how about you stick to waiting tables and starting repetitive, fetishistic threads about how much money some crime family made in 1974 on the RD forum. You don't have the reputation of being probably the single biggest mob fanboy on the forums nothing.

Originally Posted By: OakAsFan
Ivy's a probation officer?


Was juvenile probation. Not anymore.

Last edited by IvyLeague; 09/14/16 01:56 AM.

Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893832
09/14/16 03:14 PM
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Ivy,

Don't wait tables anymore that was years ago and I don't think Detroit is some unstoppable family. I think they have somewhere between 20-30 members and are not the dominant force in sports betting in metro Detroit and surrounding suburbs ,but are the biggest player in that. I believe that with that comes they're juice rackets which I believe are a fraction of what they used to be. I think they're involved not nearly on the same scale as before in stolen goods and fencing. Also dabble in auto and insurance fraud and if someone wants the prestige of working with a mafia family and wants to pay tribute they do that. Also think they have people they can reach out to in the unions if they need a small favor but otherwise labor racketeering is a thing of the past for them. Also believe they have done a good job of maintaining they're modest membership. Also they occasionally murder people,just like they occasionally go to jail. No one has been convicted of a Detroit mob murder since 1934. I guess there hasn't been any since then....


A March 1986 raid on DiBernardo's office seized alleged "child pornography and financial records." As "a result of the Postal Inspectors seizures [a federal prosecutor] is attempting to indict DiBernardo on child pornography violations" according to an FBI memo dated May 20, 1986.
Thousands of pages of FBI Files that document his involvement in Child Porn
https://www.muckrock.com/foi/united-states-of-america-10/star-distributors-ltd-46454/
https://www.upi.com/Archives/1981/0...s-Miporn-investigation-of/7758361252800/
https://www.courtlistener.com/opinion/1526052/united-states-v-dibernardo/
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893834
09/14/16 04:26 PM
09/14/16 04:26 PM
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IvyLeague Offline
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Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Ivy,

Don't wait tables anymore that was years ago and I don't think Detroit is some unstoppable family. I think they have somewhere between 20-30 members and are not the dominant force in sports betting in metro Detroit and surrounding suburbs ,but are the biggest player in that. I believe that with that comes they're juice rackets which I believe are a fraction of what they used to be. I think they're involved not nearly on the same scale as before in stolen goods and fencing. Also dabble in auto and insurance fraud and if someone wants the prestige of working with a mafia family and wants to pay tribute they do that. Also think they have people they can reach out to in the unions if they need a small favor but otherwise labor racketeering is a thing of the past for them. Also believe they have done a good job of maintaining they're modest membership. Also they occasionally murder people,just like they occasionally go to jail. No one has been convicted of a Detroit mob murder since 1934. I guess there hasn't been any since then....


Well, other than my thinking 20 members is likely the max for them rather than the minimum, our views on the family aren't that different.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: IvyLeague] #893839
09/14/16 05:20 PM
09/14/16 05:20 PM
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Ivy,

Don't wait tables anymore that was years ago and I don't think Detroit is some unstoppable family. I think they have somewhere between 20-30 members and are not the dominant force in sports betting in metro Detroit and surrounding suburbs ,but are the biggest player in that. I believe that with that comes they're juice rackets which I believe are a fraction of what they used to be. I think they're involved not nearly on the same scale as before in stolen goods and fencing. Also dabble in auto and insurance fraud and if someone wants the prestige of working with a mafia family and wants to pay tribute they do that. Also think they have people they can reach out to in the unions if they need a small favor but otherwise labor racketeering is a thing of the past for them. Also believe they have done a good job of maintaining they're modest membership. Also they occasionally murder people,just like they occasionally go to jail. No one has been convicted of a Detroit mob murder since 1934. I guess there hasn't been any since then....


Well, other than my thinking 20 members is likely the max for them rather than the minimum, our views on the family aren't that different.


The issue is their level of activity and not whether they exist or not. All of us agree that they exist and have around 20 to 30 members. It's just that you seem to be the only one who believes they are barely active and borderline defunct. A view most of us find baffling.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: ralphie_cifaretto] #893897
09/15/16 02:19 AM
09/15/16 02:19 AM
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Originally Posted By: ralphie_cifaretto
The issue is their level of activity and not whether they exist or not. All of us agree that they exist and have around 20 to 30 members. It's just that you seem to be the only one who believes they are barely active and borderline defunct. A view most of us find baffling.


That's because you take the Internet charts you see at face value, believe likely inflated membership totals, and use the "their secretive and intermarried" talking point to explain away everything. I expect some of you guys will use the same reasoning to think Detroit is still going strong 10 or 15 years from now.


Mods should mind their own business and leave poster's profile signatures alone.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: ralphie_cifaretto] #893904
09/15/16 03:24 AM
09/15/16 03:24 AM
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Originally Posted By: ralphie_cifaretto
Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: Louiebynochi
Ivy,

Don't wait tables anymore that was years ago and I don't think Detroit is some unstoppable family. I think they have somewhere between 20-30 members and are not the dominant force in sports betting in metro Detroit and surrounding suburbs ,but are the biggest player in that. I believe that with that comes they're juice rackets which I believe are a fraction of what they used to be. I think they're involved not nearly on the same scale as before in stolen goods and fencing. Also dabble in auto and insurance fraud and if someone wants the prestige of working with a mafia family and wants to pay tribute they do that. Also think they have people they can reach out to in the unions if they need a small favor but otherwise labor racketeering is a thing of the past for them. Also believe they have done a good job of maintaining they're modest membership. Also they occasionally murder people,just like they occasionally go to jail. No one has been convicted of a Detroit mob murder since 1934. I guess there hasn't been any since then....


Well, other than my thinking 20 members is likely the max for them rather than the minimum, our views on the family aren't that different.


The issue is their level of activity and not whether they exist or not. All of us agree that they exist and have around 20 to 30 members. It's just that you seem to be the only one who believes they are barely active and borderline defunct. A view most of us find baffling.



But in this 20-30 made men chart there men in their 80s and the most younger had 50 y.
So maybe had 100 associate that did the dirty job for them but the family is still active but in its decline.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893913
09/15/16 08:48 AM
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Just to give some perspective, in 1984 during the senate committee on organized crime in the Great Lakes region the FBI testified that the Detroit mob had 23 members. One boss, one underboss, six captains and 15 soldiers. And in 1989 they said there were only 26. Detroit never had a lot of made members. Also a reason why I believe that Nove Tocco was never actually inducted along with the fact that there's been no evidence or testimony given by him to that effect. I don't see any reason why similar numbers couldn't be maintained today, and with the ages of some of these members I can picture an organization with only 15 or so active members. I'm guessing they use a lot of associates and always have. The most recent Thomas Mackey-Kenneth Green gambling bust in 2014 involved nine people and specifically references others involved who were not named or indicted. And based on Green's involvement I think its pretty clear this was a Detroit mob connected gambling operation.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: IvyLeague] #893917
09/15/16 09:45 AM
09/15/16 09:45 AM
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Originally Posted By: IvyLeague
Originally Posted By: ralphie_cifaretto
The issue is their level of activity and not whether they exist or not. All of us agree that they exist and have around 20 to 30 members. It's just that you seem to be the only one who believes they are barely active and borderline defunct. A view most of us find baffling.


That's because you take the Internet charts you see at face value, believe likely inflated membership totals, and use the "their secretive and intermarried" talking point to explain away everything. I expect some of you guys will use the same reasoning to think Detroit is still going strong 10 or 15 years from now.


At face value? I believe what the feds have been saying. They've already publicly declared several families defunct. It's funny how you believe that and not their take on Detroit. As far as the charts go, I believe they have 22 to 25 active members tops. That's inflated to you? lol. The fact that they are so few is precisely why it's so difficult to build a case against them. It's not an attempt to explain away everything. It's simply a reality that it's a lot more difficult to penetrate a tight knit group of few than a large organization. This is logic.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893920
09/15/16 10:58 AM
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I "bet" there's a big Sports Betting scene in the Detroit suburbs in which Jackie Giacalone's network provides a service. I can see that as the most likely scenario in my opinion. I imagine the package being pretty big too that they handle. Detroit is a great sports city and you also have Michigan Football nearby in Ann Arbor, I can see a lot of action being placed.

I was actually once In Costa Rica a few years ago at one of those mob connected Casinos where Sports Betting web sites are hosted out of and where the wire room is and all the guys staying at the hotel in the casino were from Detroit. I didn't recognize any names, but I don't know anything about Detroit besides what I read on here.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: ralphie_cifaretto] #893929
09/15/16 12:37 PM
09/15/16 12:37 PM
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Originally Posted By: ralphie_cifaretto
At face value? I believe what the feds have been saying. They've already publicly declared several families defunct. It's funny how you believe that and not their take on Detroit. As far as the charts go, I believe they have 22 to 25 active members tops. That's inflated to you? lol. The fact that they are so few is precisely why it's so difficult to build a case against them. It's not an attempt to explain away everything. It's simply a reality that it's a lot more difficult to penetrate a tight knit group of few than a large organization. This is logic.



What's funny is people have often accused me of blindly following the feds, since I defer to them more than anyone, but when I take other sources into consideration as well - as I always do - people feel they need to remind me what the feds say. Yes, we do see law enforcement sources stating there's still a family in Detroit. On the other hand, we have the 1999 UN report on the LCN (by OC expert James Finckenauer) which listed Detroit among those cities where the LCN was "weak or non-existent." Or the 2011 WSJ article which stated "most experts agree that its (the LCN) operations are now largely confined to its traditional bases in the Northeast and Chicago."

So, we have conflicting reports to some degree. Which is why I've always said it's debatable and people are free to go either way. What makes me lean towards the latter is additional info in the form of a relative lack of cases in Detroit as compared to other remaining small families such as New England or Philadelphia. I think things people bring up, like the close familial relations in Detroit, the feds having bigger priorities, etc are factors but not big enough ones to explain away everything. Especially when we're talking 15+ years with the 2006 bust being the biggest.

I've posted the numbers many times when it comes to the membership. 30 members at most in 1996, with one article citing that figure again in 2001. However, I saw another figure in the book The New Ethnic Mobs, which came out shortly before the GamTax case in 1996, which cited 23 members. Scott himself cited 25 members in his 2006 book Motor City Mafia. So, over a decade from 1996-2006 we have a range of 23-30 members. However, as I posted, we can see a list of some 30 members or possible members who have died just since 2001. I certainly don't believe they were all members, and have no way of knowing just how many on the list were, but I think it's a safe assumption that several of them were. And I think it's a safe assumption that, even IF there have been more making ceremonies over that time, it like you hasn't been enough to keep the membership stable against those who have died.

I think the lack of cases in Detroit stems much more from what's left of the mob there being a low priority than the family being so close knit and secretive. Contrary to popular opinion here, they don't necessarily need to flip any members to bring indictments. Especially when it's something like illegal gambling. And that's pretty close to the sum total of what we're talking about when it comes to the mob in Detroit - illegal gambling - specifically bookmaking. But, comparatively speaking, we don't see the amount of gambling busts there (mob connected or otherwise) that we see in different parts of the Northeast. In short, I think the evidence shows a much smaller, less robust, slower paced mob organization in that city than many are imagining.


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Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893930
09/15/16 01:03 PM
09/15/16 01:03 PM
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http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-n...eral-dies-at-74

I wonder who took over Hilf's package in Suburban Detroit? A package that size doesn't just disappear, there's a lot of money to be made someone took it over...

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: DanteMoltisanti] #893934
09/15/16 02:07 PM
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Originally Posted By: DanteMoltisanti
http://www.theoaklandpress.com/general-n...eral-dies-at-74

I wonder who took over Hilf's package in Suburban Detroit? A package that size doesn't just disappear, there's a lot of money to be made someone took it over...


he apparently used to kick up 200k every Christmas a major earner before his death. According to scott the day after he died Giacalone crew members robbed his house looking for his stash of money and according to his "sources" made a major score.


Not connected with scott or anyone at gangsterreport

Sorry for the confusion
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #893940
09/15/16 02:32 PM
09/15/16 02:32 PM
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Detroit family always was small ? Detroit had only the 10,6 % of white people and very little part are italian and there many italian in michigan then looking in perspective 20-30 made men are enought but is clear that are focused on booking bookie loanshark the average age is very high, it's considered that there is the consideration that "it's better earn few and enjoy it that earn more and stay in prison".

Last edited by furio_from_naples; 10/03/16 06:21 AM.
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: furio_from_naples] #895555
10/03/16 04:21 AM
10/03/16 04:21 AM
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Thanks for posting that one Furio. Lots of information that was new to me.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: MightyDR] #895557
10/03/16 06:23 AM
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Originally Posted By: MightyDR


Thanks for posting that one Furio. Lots of information that was new to me.


Thanks MightyDR, I'm always ready to help.

Re: Detroit Mob [Re: Louiebynochi] #895651
10/04/16 12:30 PM
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Yeah, that was a good article Furio..

I was also very surprised at the white vs blacks ratio in Detroit, I never knew that. I always wondered why I saw so many black people coming to old Les Gold for cash in that show Hardcore Pawn, this explains a lot. That guy is the quintessential Shylock for me, he could play the lead in the next big screen adaptation of The merchant of Venice.


FORTIS FORTUNA IUVAT
Re: Detroit Mob [Re: BillyBrizzi] #895654
10/04/16 01:18 PM
10/04/16 01:18 PM
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Originally Posted By: BillyBrizzi
Yeah, that was a good article Furio..

I was also very surprised at the white vs blacks ratio in Detroit, I never knew that. I always wondered why I saw so many black people coming to old Les Gold for cash in that show Hardcore Pawn, this explains a lot. That guy is the quintessential Shylock for me, he could play the lead in the next big screen adaptation of The merchant of Venice.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Detroit#Race_and_ethnicity

Yes is ugly to say in the 1950s when Detroit was rich the whites was the 83.6% of the totals.

Detroit remains one of the most racially segregated cities in the United States.[135][136] From the 1940s to the 1970s a second wave of Blacks moved to Detroit to escape Jim Crow laws in the south and find jobs.[137] However, they soon found themselves excluded from white areas of the city—through violence, laws, and economic discrimination (e.g., redlining).White residents attacked black homes: breaking windows, starting fires, and exploding bombs.The pattern of segregation was later magnified by white migration to the suburbs.

the italians are 280.000 in metro detroit so for this I say that the Detroit family was small compared to the east coast families but for the detroit standard are still viable.

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