I'm fascinated by The Outfit and the mysteriousness about how they operate and how big/small they are only magnifies it..

I bought and read The Outfit by Gus Russo and it amazed me how influential and powerful they were in the 30's all the way to the mid 70's. It was a pity that the book stopped there.

I would like to know more about the recent stuff of the outfit, I know their power dwindled, but I'm still very interested.
I think I'm going to read Operation Family Secrets next..

Do you have any tips for a good read about the outfit slick??

That's wrong. You should do some reading of your own and not just go around thinking you know based on modern times and comparing families with one another and quoting Ivy. As said, the Organized Crime and political corruption in Chicago aspect is too deep rooted to just go away. You still have somewhat recent incidents of political connections coming up in Outfit related indictments. And as it's said in "Organized Crime in Chicago: Beyond The Mafia", the Outfit never "made" a large number of guys to begin with, compared to other families, yet they always had loyal associates who were waist deep in rackets, and in most cases weren't even Italian, despite this they were and still are a verified LCN family. I consider Chicago as it's stand alone mob organization, you can't compare them to the others because they simply aren't comparable..As far as labor involvement goes, about a year ago, many web pages of various Chicago locals were brought up, and the presidents and vps and execs of those labor unions were recognizable last names with prior cases of Organized Crime involvement.

And I've rarely seen cases of dirty cops or law enforcement aiding mob-connected guys in NY in the past decade like you have with Chicago. But thats just my personal observation.

I dont think of The Outfit on much of a decline so to speak, but moreso of them adapting with the times and their environment.

Well said Sinatra. BillyBrizzi Ive got all three Family Secrets books and they have some information all the way up to the indictment. Fred Pascente wrote a book before he died last year, he was a police associate that grew up with Spilotro and Lombardo. I havent read it yet but have heard it was good. Don Herion wrote a book also it has some good stuff.

Jeezus H.

Ain't no fanboys like Chicago fanboys.



@Ivy: don't waste anymore time. People who want to believe something aren't open to changing their minds, listening or accepting facts.

Fanboys coming from a guy who has damn near 2000 post in under 3 years. Lol. You need to look in a mirror pal.

You're right, it is a waste of time. I should know this more than anyone, having dealt with Chicago posters for so many years. It's hard to discuss a subject that many of them approach on an almost emotional level. Like anything less than what they think the Outfit to be is a personal insult.

It's tough because Chicago is still an active, viable family with a hierarchy. It's not like Detroit where, without Scott, 99% of the debates probably wouldn't even come up. But people have a hard time differentiating the Outfit from years ago to today. And much of what their idea of the Outfit is today is built more on smoke than substance.

But that smoke is where many of the Outfit champions are most comfortable. Lots of names. Lots of rumors. Lots of inuendo. Lots of cliches. It makes it easier to paint this portrait of the Outfit as an almost omnipresent force throughout Chicago. And others love the idea of that and eat it up.

@ Sonny



I DISTINCTLY recall in a thread about philly, around New Years, someone said they had pics of Joey Merlino, at a party, and kinda like a schoolgirl (no offense) you were like " Can you post?"


PLEASE NEVER CALL ANYONE FANBOY AGAIN LOL

@ Ivey

I understand how you wanna keep the boards from devolving into a mess of lies, and misinformation, I get that.


But sometimes it appears to be something else, I'm not privy to the past arguments on here, but it does seem like it made you a little biased when discussing the Midwest, case in point;


Forget modern day Detroit, you argued with me that they COULDNT HAVE been a power in the 40s and 50s, which I found utterly bizarre, more so cause your only refutation was that Detroit wasn't New York.


Same deal in a thread about loan sharks with Todoped, Buccieri, in your estimation could not have been a bigger loan shark than a NY guy, cause it's Chicago and not NY. And then you ignore people's analysis of available data, like everyone is retarded but you, that's annoying.

When I first came on here, I tried to tell you guys about a nephew of Gus Alex I know, young guy, into a lot of shit. You flat out basically called me a liar, just fuckin disrespectful.


I saw a similar thing happen in a thread with PB. They were talking about the Bronx, a guy call OnDaFly came in, and right away, someone, (not from the fuckin Bronx clearly) tries to call the guy out, until PB vouched for him, then by the end of the thread, they were the only ones talking and everyone is all "Wow", I'm reading it like, what the fuck is this? Lol

So, I get you, I do. But like I said before, just be wary of maintaining double standards... But keep being you, your research is unimpeachable...

so the outfit still having ties to ohara airport doesn't mean shit to u?

even though it's the busiest airport in the country in the 3rd largest city

u can't even name the suburbs they operate in but you know exactly what they're doing

it ain't the 40s-70s in chicago nor ny (where 5 families fight for the same dollar)

It's not a bias against the Midwest and it's typically only posters from Midwest cities that take it as such because, like I said, it becomes almost personal to them.

Most of the debates deal more with the current status of things than the distant past. And, relatively speaking, there's not much mob presence in the Midwest to speak of. Thats just a fact.



I don't believe I ever said Detroit wasn't a power. The debate was how much of a power they were in the drug trade and if they ever supplied the NY families at times. If memory serves, I think you showed that they did but I maintained that the NY families were bigger operators down through the years.




I don't have a hard time believing Buccieri was a bigger loanshark than some NY guys. I don't believe he was the biggest in the country. And I believe the biggest loanshark would, in all probability, be found in NY for which should be obvious reasons. It's easier to believe a guy like Frank Tieri would be bigger than anyone from outside NY. I'm not from NY, Chicago, or any other city with a mob family so I don't have a dog in this fight or the temptation like some do to defend their hometown crime family like one would a sports team.



You'll have to refresh my memory on that one.

You obviously have a dog in the fight, even a blind man could see that. But who cares Im happy today, we had a making ceremony yesterday, and it was another son. So ill give you a pass today.

My only dog is getting the facts right. Not being from NY or the east coast, it's not like I get bragging rights when it comes to the "dick measuring" between families west often see on these forums.

Congratulations!!!

But the making ceremony was probably some 9 months ago ;-)

Thanks Billy. Ivy it is obvious you have a dog in the fight, and no you don't have to live somewhere to have that dog in the fight. If that was true 80%-90% of everyone on these boards wouldn't be on here. If your only dog is the facts start posting them. Saying something with no proof is not fact. I've seen people over the years post facts with stuff to back it up to you. You always just give some nonchalant comment like Ad-hoc venture or ignore it and quote some bullshit someone else says. Cool but that's not credibility. I don't ignore facts. New York has a lot of made men. We know that, you are the one missing the point. No one here is trying to say the Outfit is running Vegas or KC or anything but Chicago. If you don't think they still have quite a bit of power there, then your the one built on smoke more than substance.

CabriniGreen


IvyLeague


IvyLeague


What obvious reason? Oh I remember you have a dog in the fight. That was long enough ago it could have been someone from LA, and if available data showed it you still would have said "And I believe the biggest loanshark would, in all probability, be found in NY for which should be obvious reasons."

No proof. Lol.

I don't think there's a single poster on any of the forums who's presented more facts backed with evidence than I have. If you've been on the boards for a significant amount of time you would know this. Maybe you're just playing stupid. There was a time when I would spend a good chunk of my time laying it all out in one or more posts. Or for several pages if the debate went on long enough. But, as SonnyBlackstein and I were talking about, it's almost always a waste of time. Especially when it comes to many Chicago posters. You guys have this image of the Outfit that you simply want to hang onto and there's really no changing your mind.

And sorry to break it to you but you have yet to show me any link that I haven't seen before. Ive seen many of these similar links from other Chicago posters or found them myself. You are all very quick to rush to a conclusion about what they mean, and it's usually that the Outfit is still a thriving, omnipresent, powerhouse in Chicago. You guys take 1 + 1 +1 and get 10.



The Genovese family has always been said to have the biggest gambling and loansharking operations. Typically, when a family has the biggest operation of something in NY, that also means the country. Generally speaking, the NY families have just always been bigger operators. If you can't acknowledge that, its because you don't want to. The NYPD considered Tieri the biggest loanshark in the nation. Neither I nor anyone else has a reason to doubt this unless they see it all as some dick measuring contest and they want their hometown crime family to be the big dog. Believe what you want. It's obvious this is a personal matter to you. And there's no reasoning with people like that. It took me a long time to realize and accept this fact.

Im sure you think that highly of yourself. You must be playing stupid always missing the point, or maybe u just are. Saying shit like the NYPD considered him the biggest loanshark in the nation. It might mean something if you said the FBI said it. It might mean more if you back it up. Im sure you have seen all those links, all ad-hoc. There are quiet a few more but there will just be more ad-hoc and residual comments. You keep talking about dick measuring and people are gonna start getting the wrong idea about you or maybe the right idea because there is no doubt that you are running around with a yard stick begging to measure them. Lol.

Irony.


More irony.

Im done with you. Ill see you again in a future Outfit thread. Im sure of that.

Irony is you or Ivy for that matter calling anyone a fanboy. There is some perspective for you. You never bring anything to the conversation. Period. Troll bait is all you are.

@ Ivey

See this is what I mean Ivey, I actually DID have reason to doubt Tieri as the biggest loan shark, and gave you all kind of reasons why, but it was, no you are stupid, and wrong. And the thing was, my choice was Salerno, ( or Catena) not a Midwest guy, who was said to have 80 million on the street, based of 20 years of running Harlem, the big money crews. How would Tieri have 90 million on the street in Brooklyn? Why wasn't he higher on the Forbes list? He would have to dominate there, but how could he when there are three other families based there? How many capos is that? 20? 25?And the Genovese base is Manhattan? That to me seemed off, not some damn fanboy obsession, but by that point it was like you made up your mind...
I posted a link naming Jiggs Forlano as the top shark in NY, and referenced his Connection to Ruby Stein, another huge shark. Jigs operated in Brooklyn, Colombo territory. So where was Funzis status when Jiggs was tops? I mentioned the part in the Demeo book, where Tieri wanted to know what happened to Ruby Steins book, that was stolen by the Westies. So it was pretty clear, anyone associated with this Stein, benefited from HIM being a huge shark, Tieri probably "inherited" the guy somehow after Forlano died. I mean, can you explain that? I would love to hear that, not some bullshit about how I'm a fanboy lol...


On the Gus Alex nephew thing, when you guys say, there aren't that many young guys, there is no narcotics involvement, you gotta understand, I don't know HOW MANY there are, but you are wrong there, point blank period, I know cause I KNOW AT LEAST ONE LOL, and this guy, like I tried to tell you before, operates like a NY guy, with shit all over the place. Now my point was where there was smoke, there is probably fire, if there is one, there might be more, don't tell me it's impossible, that's ridiculous..



Also, Chicago is as corrupt as Wall Street is greedy, the mob may not control it, but it is an entity unto itself, it's never going away. You guys forget, the Mayor of NY ran Costello out, and Dewey put the biggest boss there in jail for 50 years. AT A TIME WHEN THEY WERE POWERFUL AS HELL. Cermak tried the mob, and got WACKED OUT, if you don't think that had some lasting effect on the succeeding generation of politicians, well.....




This is what I meant by you guys don't get how corrupt it is here, but you may have a point in that it's hard to tell if it's the mob, or just ingrained dynastic nepotism in say for example, the unions, but that's what I mean, the lines are blurred.




It's why I get so annoyed by threads like the "Are the rizzutos Lcn?" If you were to look at the Partinico faction from Detroit, you would see that they set up the transatlantic drug trafficking mafia family blueprint that is the cutting edge of organized crime today. That Bonnano tried to emulate and Gambino dismantled and then copied for himself. Don't tell me it's not, you yourself posted an article about the ndrangheta families controlling Australia recently. If you looked at history, the present wouldn't even be confusing at all, you'd say, ooh, it's one of THOSE families, not bogged down by charts and numbers.
And THATS why it annoyed me the most Ivey, cause it's a big part of MAFIA HISTORY, like it's interesting, but you made up your mind that it isn't, without even looking at it.

And Ivey, I honestly think YOU don't understand how big NY is. Like I think you think a restaurant in NY will absolute beat one in say, Iowa. But you don't take into account the nature of NY. The density, the competition, the cost, of doing business and staying competitive. Liscenses, all that shit. You take a 5 star restaurant in NY, it's a dime a dozen, it could be outta business within a year. You put the same restaurant somewhere much smaller, it might be the most happenin, chic thing in the city, and make more money. I was reading an article about carting in NY, and how some big carters said collecting trash in NY was more expensive than anticipated, ( even though it clearly has like, the most trash, it COST MORE TO PICK IT UP)they are now moving into recycling and turning trash into energy. You check out that show Billions? There is a cute scene where they talk about a guy has a food cart and his brother undercuts him by selling the same food at 50 cents cheaper, RIGHT NEXT TO HIM, THATS BUSINESS IN NEW YORK FOR YOU.... Like I have a friend, she lives in Hanoi now, teaching English, she moved to NY thinking it was going to fulfill her or some shit, it CRUSHED HER, she wasn't prepared for the intensity of it. Her sister graduated from like Yale law or some shit, she had to move back in with her parents cause the comp was too intense for jobs.... Same deal here in the Chi, Jimmy Johns moved to like Florida or some shit cause the City, though a bigger market, cost too much more to operate in...



Again, I'm not knocking your research, more like your need to be the smartest guy in the room at all times, your need to win the argument.

About time someone said it...

These arguments never end because they are about gangsters and their net worth. Forbes list? These guys are GANGSTERS they don't file tax returns for loansharking income. These arguments are fucking nonsense.

Comparing numbers seems pretty meaningless if there historically is another standard for membership in Chicago, a theory which for example is supported by "Organized crime in Chicago" by Lombardo. According to this theory only key guys are made whereas the others are referered to as "outfit guys".

Scarpelli described himself as an "outfit guy", not a made guy. He would by Ny standards be called an Associate.

Of course Schweis was not made, being german, he was heavy but not italian like Jimmy Burke in Ny, but italians like Scarpelli (guys deeply involved in key crews and involved in major hits ) who were not made? They would probably have been made in Ny.

Ivy


First you think your more credible than the Detroit FBI office on the state of the LCN there and now you think the nypd is an authority to decide who is the biggest loan shark in THE NATION. They can't even investigate outside of New York for Christ sake. Personally I think Carlo Gambino was the biggest , remember he loan 1.2 million to joe Colombo. If not him than I would say Anthony fat tony Salerno,or Joey auippa

Scarpelli was made.

First, I'm not sure why you're referencing that Forbes list, which wasn't really based on anything substantive. If you look at that list, they tried to include at least someone from just about every family rather than who actually was the wealthiest, most powerful, etc.

Second, I'm not aware of any in depth analysis or report on the top loanshark in the country that could be a definitive answer for us. I do know that Tieri was identified as such by the NYPD at one point. I have also seen Forlano identified as such. The way I see it, it's safest to give the benefit of the doubt to a NY guy. And within that sphere, probably a Genovese guy. Why? Not because I'm biased but because of what we know about the relative size of mob operations in both NY and the country. I'm fact, any well informed, objective observer should require quite a bit of convincing evidence to think it wouldn't be someone from NY.



Once again, I don't recall much about this Gus Alex thing you keep bringing up. Either way, it seems largely immaterial to the present discussion because you're point is anecdotal and about one guy. I'm talking about general trends here and, generally speaking, the Outfit has relatively little involvement in narcotics. Anyone can see that in the Outfit cases over the past 15 years.




The problem is you and others talk about the Chicago Outfit and Chicago corruption like they're synonymous. They're not. Linked at times, yes, but not the same thing. Chicago always having some level of corruption doesn't mean the Outfit is never going away. Look at recent trends. Back in 1997, the Outfit was said to have approximately 70 members. Nearly 20 years later, it's not even half that. Even if one wants to include associates in the mix, because Chicago is "so different" from the other families, the total size is still only comparable to the other handful of small families left outside NY. You guys turn a blind eye to the #1 killer of mob families - attrition. Not the feds. Not rats. Attrition. That's why numbers DO matter. As I pointed out before, Louisiana has always had a lot of corruption too. But attrition still finished off the Marcello family. Yes, the Outfit is a bigger organization than his was but the same still applies. Somebody would willfully have to turn a blind eye not to see it.



While Im not saying there isnt competition, I do think in order to make your point you and others overstate this thing about competition between the NY families. The greater NY metro area has had 5 families for a century or so precisely because it CAN accommodate those families. The NY families have generally worked together and there's been enough for everyone. And actually, now more than ever, I'd argue that them all being in the same area is as much a help to them as anything. They have intersecting interests and are able to pool their resources at times. This presents a much bigger, more daunting task for law enforcement than a single, small family out on its own island, so to speak.

You guys keep going back to the Outfit having Chicago all to itself. Well it's not just about how big and rich a territory is but also a family's ability to exploit that territory. It's why, similar to my New Orleans comparison, I brought up LA. The few members still living there have that huge city mostly to themselves, in terms of the LCN, but it doesn't really benefit them all that much. Once again, while the Outfit is obviously much bigger operation, the same applies.
Chicago could arguably be called the most corrupt city in the US. It doesn't change the fact that the Outfit has vastly decreased in both its size and it's scope of operations.

Did Chicago ever take any milwaukee guys when that family tanked?

Not to my knowledge, although the remaining guys may have fallen under the Outfit's thumb in some form or fashion.

I don't think this will answer your question but a lot of people haven't considered Milwaukee since Milwaukee Phil. Just like others feel the Outfit is done or tanked or whatever.

No fight here - just kinda stating what many have said in various threads the last couple of years.