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Re: Michal's choices [Re: Turnbull] #992053
05/30/20 12:08 AM
05/30/20 12:08 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
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Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
Originally Posted by Lana

though Vito's speech at the peace meeting 'cleared' Michael of all these false charges!
I note that you put "cleared" in quotes--right! Yes, Vito said, "My oldest son, forced to flee because of this Solozzo business." He didn't outright say Michael killed him...didn't outright say he didn't kill him. Nice bit of legal circumlocution. Tom taught him well. tongue
Good pick up! Turnbull “legal circumlocution” nicely done indeed

Sollozzo was stalling for time until Sollozzo could make another, this time successful, attempt on Vito's life

Sollozzo could have had the meeting with Consiglieri Tom whom Sollozzo himself acknowledged Tom is not in the muscle-end of the family, by request! without having to ambush / kidnap Tom again
Sollozzo's proposition was, for Tom to make peace between Sollozzo and Sonny, persuade Sonny to make the narcotics deal, believing Vito was dead

Why did Sollozzo want the meeting with 'civilian' Michael to hear and pass on to Sonny, Sollozzo's revised proposition, the deal so good the Corleones can't refuse – insincere truce request!

Whilst Michel undoubtedly would want to help / protect his father and family as the Police officer told McCluskey “The kid's clean Captain He [Michael] is a war hero. He's never been busted for the rackets”

  • Did Sollozzo think 'messenger' Michael wouldn't wise up to Sollozzo's tricks
  • What did Sollozzo hope to achieve with Michael that Sollozzo couldn't with Consiglieri Tom
  • Tom too would have had to do the same – pass on the truce request to Sonny

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Turnbull] #992059
05/30/20 09:46 AM
05/30/20 09:46 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,463
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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mustachepete  Offline
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No. Virginia
In the book, Sonny says that Michael can get to Sollozzo because, "Most important they got him down as faggy...." Where they think Tom might be part of something cute, they think Michael's no threat.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Michal's choices [Re: mustachepete] #992066
05/30/20 02:25 PM
05/30/20 02:25 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,487
AZ
I think the reason is that Sol knew Tom favored the deal even before the shooting, and said he'd "try" to persuade Sonny and the capos after Sol kidnapped him and let him go. But obviously Tom was not successful in getting Sonny to come around. Why try Tom a second time? Perhaps Sol thought that Michael, as a "real" son to Vito and a "real" brother to Sonny, could be more persuasive.

"Personal, not business."


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michal's choices [Re: mustachepete] #992093
05/30/20 11:17 PM
05/30/20 11:17 PM
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Dob_Peppino Offline
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Originally Posted by mustachepete
In the book, Sonny says that Michael can get to Sollozzo because, "Most important they got him down as faggy...." Where they think Tom might be part of something cute, they think Michael's no threat.

well michael showed them lol

Last edited by Dob_Peppino; 05/31/20 08:21 AM.

"Joe Bananas went after Carlo Gambino, the war went on for seven years..... When guys go to the mattresses, they're not out earning" -Tony Soprano
Re: Michal's choices [Re: Turnbull] #992095
05/31/20 01:06 AM
05/31/20 01:06 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
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Lana Offline
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Lana  Offline
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Australia
Originally Posted by Turnbull
I think the reason is that Sol knew Tom favored the deal even before the shooting, and said he'd "try" to persuade Sonny and the capos after Sol kidnapped him and let him go. But obviously Tom was not successful in getting Sonny to come around. Why try Tom a second time? Perhaps Sol thought that Michael, as a "real" son to Vito and a "real" brother to Sonny, could be more persuasive.

"Personal, not business."
When Sollozzo made his [first] proposition - make peace between Sollozzo and Sonny, persuade Sonny to make the narcotics deal - to kidnapped Consiglieri Tom, Sollozzo believed Vito was dead

I think Sollozzo realised, with Vito alive, Sonny won't / can't make the deal even if “Sonny was hot for his deal”

Sollozzo's “Well that's bad luck for me and bad luck for you if you don't make that deal!” was a knee-jerk reaction out of frustration and trepidation, having to explain his failure to kill Vito, to Tattaglia [Barzini] and start all over again

I believe that's why Sollozzo requested the meeting for his [second] proposition, buying time until Sollozzo could make another, this time successful, attempt on Vito's life

Sollozzo didn't know that the Corleones had a man in McCluskey's precinct and would find out the 'secret' meeting place
Sollozzo was smug, secure and invulnerable being guarded by the Police captain

In my view, whatever Sollozzo hoped to achieve with 'civilian' Michael which I believe was to pass on to Sonny, Sollozzo's revised second proposition - his insincere truce request, Sollozzo could have, with Consiglieri Tom as either was just the 'messenger'
And if it was Tom! Sollozzo would have lived!!

My understanding is, Sollozzo wanted the Corleones to interfere no longer until Vito has recovered to start discussing the narcotics deal again or similar - his insincere truce request – not because “Perhaps Sol thought Michael, as a "real" son to Vito and a "real" brother to Sonny, could be more persuasive” to go for the narcotics deal?

Besides in fairness to Tom, he didn't get the opportunity “in getting Sonny to come around” because Vito was not dead

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Lana] #992134
05/31/20 09:27 PM
05/31/20 09:27 PM
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Evita Offline
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whatever Sollozzo hoped to achieve with 'civilian' Michael he could have, with Consiglieri Tom
He was buying time to make another, successful, attempt on Vito's life

I reckon he knew no way Sonny would make the deal, Vito dead or alive

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Lana] #992137
05/31/20 09:32 PM
05/31/20 09:32 PM
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Evita Offline
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Originally Posted by Lana
Vito's surprise birthday flash back scene “family outsider” Michael didn't join his family singing “For he's a jolly good fellow” and remained seated all alone, away from everything

What was the significance of not joining the family for Pop's birthday

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Evita] #992144
05/31/20 11:41 PM
05/31/20 11:41 PM
Joined: Oct 2001
Posts: 19,487
AZ
Turnbull Offline OP
Turnbull  Offline OP

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Posts: 19,487
AZ
Michael was making a statement about going his own way by joining the Marines. He knew Vito would be just as upset as was Sonny, but he declared his independence. He reinforced it with Tom: "You...talked to my father...about my future?"


Ntra la porta tua lu sangu � sparsu,
E nun me mporta si ce muoru accisu...
E s'iddu muoru e vaju mparadisu
Si nun ce truovo a ttia, mancu ce trasu.
Re: Michal's choices [Re: Turnbull] #992148
06/01/20 12:25 AM
06/01/20 12:25 AM
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
L
Lana Offline
The Hunted One
Lana  Offline
The Hunted One
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Underboss
Joined: Oct 2016
Posts: 750
Australia
I understand the "statement Michael was making about going his own way" but personal family Pop's birthday? unless Michael knew! Vito [Marlon Brando] was a no-show

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Lana] #992396
06/06/20 06:35 AM
06/06/20 06:35 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
C
Capri Offline
Capo
Capri  Offline
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Capo
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Posts: 320
why was Michael “distancing himself from his family

Re: Michal's choices [Re: Capri] #992510
06/08/20 09:34 AM
06/08/20 09:34 AM
Joined: Mar 2006
Posts: 1,463
No. Virginia
mustachepete Offline
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Originally Posted by Capri
why was Michael “distancing himself from his family


I don't think that Michael thought that the Mafia was evil so much as it was backward and unproductive. I think that he probably thought similarly about the other trappings of being a Corleones, such as Catholicism and Italian culture, and also family (with a small f). It was Michael's bad luck that Vito got shot when he did: Michael was a grown man, yet hadn't really established other ties yet, so he had to get involved. If Vito had gotten shot five years later, Michael would have been established in his own suburban or college town life, with a couple of Protestant children, and he wouldn't have been expected to make any kind of contribution to the ensuing fight.


"All of these men were good listeners; patient men."
Re: Michal's choices [Re: mustachepete] #992537
06/09/20 06:37 AM
06/09/20 06:37 AM
Joined: Apr 2017
Posts: 320
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Capri Offline
Capo
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Capo
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That's my family Kay It's not me after telling her the true story Luca holding a gun to the band leader head because he thought Mafia was evil

he was not expected they laughed when he offered He got involved

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